[baronkatz]

Quote:

I don't think the driver size has anything to do with comfort, it is pretty much the design and the cushioning materials that matter. As others have mentioned, the Ultrasone is great for the types of music you listen to but finding those made in Germany can be a problem. Have you looked into the Maddog headphones? They seem to have very satisfying bass quantity and quality although I suspect they might be a little slow for electronic music. Fostex T50RP (pre-tuned Maddogs) was originally made in Japan but I have no idea where they manufacture this model now. The tuning job is made in the USA though. Anyway, most companies have their products assembled in Asia or South America now so you're left with very few options.

 
What I meant by comfort was that the pads rest on your ears with a 40mm while the 50mm design allows the pad to rest around your ears. Most people find it more comfortable to have bigger cans on their ears because of less clamping force on the ears, but less comfortable because of weight... The ESW9 seems too hard to find in my price range, the A900X is pretty easy to find in my price range, However, as you say, I think the type of music I mostly listen to (Chillstep,Chillout, Electro, Dubstep, etc...) might not be suitable for them, especially when I want an open soundstage that sounds similar to ADS speakers.
 
I think the outsourcing issue is VERY individual. Denon for example outsources even their higher end $1000+ models whilst Audio Technical doesn't even outsource their $150+ Models... Ultrasone might outsource even for their $600-$1000 headphones, but Beyerdynamic doesn't outsource for even the Custom One Pro which is only a $150 headphone and Beyerdynamics are hand assembled, etc... so some companies want to stuff their pockets a lot more than others...
 
Any other suggestions? Seinheisser, AKG, other companies? The Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 32ohms vs. Custom One Pro 16ohms vs. some other cans? I am sure that there are more makers out there that would fit my needs? Thanks so much for your help!
 
P.S. My current Denon AH-D750s which are made in Japan, can only really shine when amplified unfortunately. Even then they sound almost compressed (perhaps that's the warm sound that people describe)... It's like comparing a pair of KEF Reference Model Ones (Which I have) to the ADS L690s (which I also have). I think 90% of the people that have compared them in my house, say that the ADS' sound better, exactly because of the "Openess" they have, the sparkly highs, the music sounds free, holographic, you can even hear all the small details and instruments and things you didn't hear before.
 
I want headphones that are like my ADS speakers, these are the first speakers where I actually look forward coming home JUST to listen to them and they give me goosebumps like I've never heard before. The vocals sound almost like the person is standing next to you, and the instruments and music feel like they are grabbing you, and you don't even need to turn it up loud to get this sensation of openess...

 

[risenfallen]

I have seen lots of cans with 40mm driver that are completely around-ear whereas 50mm driver earcups may be smaller (think about Ultrasone Pro 900 vs their HFI580 model, Pro900 drivers are 40mm and HFI580's are 50mm but the Pro900 are sure more comfy and have better bass). Generally bigger drivers come with bigger earcups and better soundstage but that's not always the case. AFAIK AKG have all their newer models made in China now and Sennheiser does not have closed-backs that fit your requirements. For Beyers, I would go with the DT770 32Ohm (Pro Limited Ed) over the Custom One Pro for your needs.

 

[baronkatz]

Quote:

I have seen lots of cans with 40mm driver that are completely around-ear whereas 50mm driver earcups may be smaller (think about Ultrasone Pro 900 vs their HFI580 model, Pro900 drivers are 40mm and HFI580's are 50mm but the Pro900 are sure more comfy and have better bass). Generally bigger drivers come with bigger earcups and better soundstage but that's not always the case. AFAIK AKG have all their newer models made in China now and Sennheiser does not have closed-backs that fit your requirements. For Beyers, I would go with the DT770 32Ohm (Pro Limited Ed) over the Custom One Pro for your needs.

Thank you for this useful information. What about the Seinheisser Amperior (That seems to be closed back, made in Ireland, and in my price range)? Also I heard that the T70P is superior to the DT770 Pro (32 Ohm LE) as it's even more open and clear (albeit a bit more expensive)... Any other suggestions? I think I am narrowing down my choices quite well...
 
I want to mention that I am now more open to buying used (these are not in-ear headphones and I can always sanitize them with wipes, so that shouldn't be a problem). I would rather buy used/refurbished higher end ones than new mid-grade ones... The ESW9's are becoming more appealing to me but I am afraid of it not having the open sound stage I am looking for that the Ultrasones might have. I doubt I will find the Ultrasones made in Europe as you state. I am kind of leaning away from the A900X as they seem a bit too huge and ugly for me compared to the ESW9's and the ESW9s are supposed to be superior...

 

[risenfallen]

I used to own the Amperior not long ago and currently have the ESW9 so I'll try and give a brief comparison between Amperior and ESW9:
 
Neutrality: both are colored in presentation, not neutral headphones. Overall, the ESW9 feels warmer (more body in the mid-to-lower spectrum) and more laid-back.
Bass: Amperior bass is quicker, livelier with tighter midbass, little decay, very suitable for electronic music (they're an updated version of the HD25 after all), subbass presence depends on the recording. If the song has a lot of it, the Amperior will deliver a substantial amount, otherwise, little subbass is present (I believe that also helps make the bass quicker on the Amperior). The EWS9's bass is more rounded in body (feels like it covers a slightly bigger space), a little less tight but reaches quite deeper than Amperior in subbass. IMO ESW9's bass is more suitable for acoustic and jazz but I enjoy all genres with them anyway.
Mids: EWS9 wins easily. The Amperior is V-shaped meaning the mids is pushed back a little compared to bass/highs but that doesn't make vocals sound bad or too distant, just not as intimate as with the ESW9.
Highs: This one goes to the Amperior. The highs on Amperior resembles the Ultrasone Pros in various ways. Highs extends pretty well (though not as good as on the Ultrasone Pros) but still very sufficient to keep the music engaging. Highs feels natural, not metallic (as in the case of the HFI-780). ESW9's highs lacks in extension and sometimes feels like it is clouded into the mids, contributing to a quite warm sound and making them non-fatiguing for long listening session.
Comfort and design: Both are well made and look great in person, especially the ESW9. Both will last if not abused but as a DJ can, the Amperior may stand a better chance. ESW9 folds flat, Amperior doesn't. ESW9 looks and feels lighter and smaller, and is much much more comfortable to wear for several hours. The Amperior pads are velour but with very strong clamping force, I'd have to take them off every hour or so but this make them a better choice for listening on the move cause they stay more securely on your head.
 
I don't have experience with any Beyer phones but the T70P is 250Ohm and will need amping (whereas the T70 is 32Ohm I believe). Both T70 and T70P are supposed to be better than DT770 but many find the latter/upgraded versions to be lacking in bass.
 
Hope this helps

 

[beefygoblin]

The problem you are going to run into is that noise cancellation technology and uncolored hi—fidelity don't go hand in hand. It's difficult enough to make closed back ones with reliable enough quality control to match spec, because materials resonate. It's less of a problem with some of the new speciality composite materials, but we won't see those being used outside of hundred thousand dollar speakers anytime soon. Patents and mass production issues. So the question becomes how do you want your audio colored ie altered. It's going to come down to personal taste. 
For cheap uncolored ie true studio quality sound within your budget you'd have to go open back, and those are not for use in public. You are going to have to find what sonic sacrifices you can live with.  No one can tell you what those will be,but bass reproduction and brightness aren't enough to go on. You have to play around. Every chance you get try a different pair and compile a list of annoyances. Then come back and lay them out. From there people should be able to guide you. That is unless your plan is on collecting headphones. That becomes an expensive hobby real fast. Don't do it man. 

 

[baronkatz]

Quote:

I used to own the Amperior not long ago and currently have the ESW9 so I'll try and give a brief comparison between Amperior and ESW9:
 
Neutrality: both are colored in presentation, not neutral headphones. Overall, the ESW9 feels warmer (more body in the mid-to-lower spectrum) and more laid-back.
Bass: Amperior bass is quicker, livelier with tighter midbass, little decay, very suitable for electronic music (they're an updated version of the HD25 after all), subbass presence depends on the recording. If the song has a lot of it, the Amperior will deliver a substantial amount, otherwise, little subbass is present (I believe that also helps make the bass quicker on the Amperior). The EWS9's bass is more rounded in body (feels like it covers a slightly bigger space), a little less tight but reaches quite deeper than Amperior in subbass. IMO ESW9's bass is more suitable for acoustic and jazz but I enjoy all genres with them anyway.
Mids: EWS9 wins easily. The Amperior is V-shaped meaning the mids is pushed back a little compared to bass/highs but that doesn't make vocals sound bad or too distant, just not as intimate as with the ESW9.
Highs: This one goes to the Amperior. The highs on Amperior resembles the Ultrasone Pros in various ways. Highs extends pretty well (though not as good as on the Ultrasone Pros) but still very sufficient to keep the music engaging. Highs feels natural, not metallic (as in the case of the HFI-780). ESW9's highs lacks in extension and sometimes feels like it is clouded into the mids, contributing to a quite warm sound and making them non-fatiguing for long listening session.
Comfort and design: Both are well made and look great in person, especially the ESW9. Both will last if not abused but as a DJ can, the Amperior may stand a better chance. ESW9 folds flat, Amperior doesn't. ESW9 looks and feels lighter and smaller, and is much much more comfortable to wear for several hours. The Amperior pads are velour but with very strong clamping force, I'd have to take them off every hour or so but this make them a better choice for listening on the move cause they stay more securely on your head.
 
I don't have experience with any Beyer phones but the T70P is 250Ohm and will need amping (whereas the T70 is 32Ohm I believe). Both T70 and T70P are supposed to be better than DT770 but many find the latter/upgraded versions to be lacking in bass.
 
Hope this helps

It definately does help. Thanks so much. If I had all these headphones in one shop to test out, I wouldn't even need to ask for advice, but I can't find anyplace around that has any of these headphones to try... BTW the T70P is the 32Ohm one as the P stands for Portable
.
Have you tried my current headphones (Denon AH-D750s) or other Denon's in the series before? I find that they are really laid back, perhaps warm. The problem with my headphones is that there is not enough bass, the highs are not really sparkly, etc... If any of the headphones listed (T70P (770Pro, Custom One Pro), ESW9, A900X, Amperiors, etc...) are any more laid back, or have any less bass or have any less isolation, or are less comfortable than the headphones that I currently have, then I can certainly "Cross them off my list..." I kind of prefer an over the ear vs. on the ear fit (partly due to the clamping you were talking about)... The Amperiors look almost like kids headphones from the 80s to me, they seem rather small and not that attractive. Any of the Ultrasones are more my style looks (and probably sound) wise, the Beyers look great (except for the LE 32Ohm which looks too 70s for me).
 
What do you have against the A900X that you like the ESW9 so much more? People say the A900X is not as warm and more neutral and more sturdy. The ESW9 has of course the better looks and real leather and wood make it have a premium feel and from what I hear better bass... But sound wise would the A900X be better for electronic music?
 
Basically I want headphones that won't sound too similar to my Denon's. I feel my Denon's don't really wow me anymore like they used to... Obviously bright sounds can be fatigueing and hurt my ears, etc... but something that is too laid back can also be boring and too similar to my headphones. I don't know how to describe it better but to say that my Denons sound "Compressed" and I want to be able to hear all the details in the music and have it the most realistic and open and holographic and stereoscopic as possible. The ADS speakers give me this. In Ken Rockwell's review of the T70P he mentioned how he heard things in the music like the artist breathing, or slight movement, etc... the details were so clear that he could hear things in the music that he had never heard before... Crystal clarity is a must and I feel that when speakers are too warm or too laid back that perhaps they don't have this? My KEF Reference Model Ones are for example bright but in a bad way, they are neutral and then bright comes along, where as the ADS speakers are bright but in a clear holoographic way...
Quote:

The problem you are going to run into is that noise cancellation technology and uncolored hi—fidelity don't go hand in hand. It's difficult enough to make closed back ones with reliable enough quality control to match spec, because materials resonate. It's less of a problem with some of the new speciality composite materials, but we won't see those being used outside of hundred thousand dollar speakers anytime soon. Patents and mass production issues. So the question becomes how do you want your audio colored ie altered. It's going to come down to personal taste. 
For cheap uncolored ie true studio quality sound within your budget you'd have to go open back, and those are not for use in public. You are going to have to find what sonic sacrifices you can live with.  No one can tell you what those will be,but bass reproduction and brightness aren't enough to go on. You have to play around. Every chance you get try a different pair and compile a list of annoyances. Then come back and lay them out. From there people should be able to guide you. That is unless your plan is on collecting headphones. That becomes an expensive hobby real fast. Don't do it man. 

Haha I could buy a few, try them out, see which ones I like best, and sell the ones I don't like as much? In truth it's hard to just play around and test all of them as there isn't one place and it might take me months to be able to audition all of them and I want to get new headphones soon as these are getting more and more dull (especially since I got my ADS speakers for the house)  I see the drawback of closed back but I haven't a choice as I listen to 90% of my music while working in the office... All home speakers are sealed enclosures unless they are electrostats or have a ported woofer or something I know it's different for a small place, but just saying, if it's possible to get good sound out of them then there should be some good quality closed backs...

 

[risenfallen]

Quote:

 
1. What do you have against the A900X that you like the ESW9 so much more? People say the A900X is not as warm and more neutral and more sturdy. The ESW9 has of course the better looks and real leather and wood make it have a premium feel and from what I hear better bass... But sound wise would the A900X be better for electronic music?
 
2. In Ken Rockwell's review of the T70P he mentioned how he heard things in the music like the artist breathing, or slight movement, etc... the details were so clear that he could hear things in the music that he had never heard before...

 
1. Headphones reference is very subjective. There are a a few gears that other people rave about that I never really get (one of those is the Objective 2 amp), but that's just my opinion and you have to really try to know for yourself I totally understand when you mention you'd rather do it right in the first place cause playing around is time/money consuming. One thing I don't like about A900X is that the wing system doesn't fit well on my head (and small heads in general) even when I tried to sustain it with a rubber band. Second, the sound signature doesn't feel natural to my ear, bass is ok but nothing special and there is a weird peak in the uppermids that constantly bug me (hence not natural). It sounds clear nonetheless but so are many other headphones. When I said that the ESW9 is warm, I didn't mean they sound muddy or anything like that. The color/tonality is something different from the capability to render things clearly. Everything still sound crystal clear (though I feel like the term is a little deceiving and is often misused to describe treble-happy phones) plus bass is much more impressive than with A900X especially when you consider the difference in size. I'd recommend ESW9 as an all-rounder. They're not the best with electronic music but they're not bad either. The A900X didn't cut it for me no matter what genre I throw at it.
 
2. Again, reviews are subjective in general. I suspect that someone can hear such subtle details in one headphone and not another (providing they're in the same quality ballpark). It might be that one presentation helps highlight certain things in music more than the other and vice versa, but I'm pretty sure if s/he comes back to another headphone with roughly the same sound quality, those details are always there. That said, I think you should go with the T70P if you like the design better as detail-wise they should be on par with ESW9. And sorry for confusing between T70 and T70P

 

[baronkatz]

Quote:

 
1. Headphones reference is very subjective. There are a a few gears that other people rave about that I never really get (one of those is the Objective 2 amp), but that's just my opinion and you have to really try to know for yourself I totally understand when you mention you'd rather do it right in the first place cause playing around is time/money consuming. One thing I don't like about A900X is that the wing system doesn't fit well on my head (and small heads in general) even when I tried to sustain it with a rubber band. Second, the sound signature doesn't feel natural to my ear, bass is ok but nothing special and there is a weird peak in the uppermids that constantly bug me (hence not natural). It sounds clear nonetheless but so are many other headphones. When I said that the ESW9 is warm, I didn't mean they sound muddy or anything like that. The color/tonality is something different from the capability to render things clearly. Everything still sound crystal clear (though I feel like the term is a little deceiving and is often misused to describe treble-happy phones) plus bass is much more impressive than with A900X especially when you consider the difference in size. I'd recommend ESW9 as an all-rounder. They're not the best with electronic music but they're not bad either. The A900X didn't cut it for me no matter what genre I throw at it.
 
2. Again, reviews are subjective in general. I suspect that someone can hear such subtle details in one headphone and not another (providing they're in the same quality ballpark). It might be that one presentation helps highlight certain things in music more than the other and vice versa, but I'm pretty sure if s/he comes back to another headphone with roughly the same sound quality, those details are always there. That said, I think you should go with the T70P if you like the design better as detail-wise they should be on par with ESW9. And sorry for confusing between T70 and T70P

Thank you! So I'm guessing you haven't heard any Denons in the range I have (The AH-D750 or anything in the Denon range) in order to compare them to the other headphones mentioned? Also guessing you haven't heard any ADS (A/D/S/) speakers to be able to compare them to what kind of headphones I would like as far as sound signature? Like I said I want something more exciting than my laid back slow boring sounding ones. They sounded great until I heard amazing speakers and now everything sounds muddy in them compared to my ADS speakers which sound crystal clear. It's like a slightly blurry photograph taken on an old lower end Canon zoom lens compared to a new T* coated Zeiss Prime... If that comparison makes sense. I just don't want something that is going to sound too similar to the ones I have or that won't WOW me enough (and is enough of an upgrade) to hear it as crystal clear and "Uncompressed" in sound (which mine doesn't seem to be)...
 
BTW, if I had the money I would probably go with the Ultrasone Edition or Signature Pro even without hearing them based on yours and other peoples recommendations.,, but even used they are $700-$800... If the Ultrasones were made in Germany I would buy the Pro 750 or Pro 900 used... If the T70P was in the DT770 Pro price range I would buy that... If the A900X didn't have that wing system, etc... There are always drawbacks to everything which makes choosing even harder...
 
Oh and I forgot to mention, I am OK with buying discontinued (or previous generation) models if that means I can get a higher quality phone that will satisfy me more in my price range.

 

[risenfallen]

I have not heard any of the older Denon like AH-D750 but I used to have the Denon D2000. I find the bass on them is the same type of bass on the ATH W1000X and ESW9, lush and deep but may be a little loose at times. Treble extension on D2000 is better than EWS9, may be on par or better than W1000X. I don't like the mids on the D2000 though, it's pretty recessed and somehow the overall sound sig feels a bit hollow. I'm not familiar with ADS speakers so can't comment on that but like I said, intimate signature doesn't always mean slow and blurry (or boring for that matter). Anyway, I believe the Beyer T70P is more airy (more spacious in soundstage) compared to ESW9, so are the Denon D2000. Bass quality and quantity on EWS9 should be at least on par on better than T70P.

 

[baronkatz]

Quote:

I have not heard any of the older Denon like AH-D750 but I used to have the Denon D2000. I find the bass on them is the same type of bass on the ATH W1000X and ESW9, lush and deep but may be a little loose at times. Treble extension on D2000 is better than EWS9, may be on par or better than W1000X. I don't like the mids on the D2000 though, it's pretty recessed and somehow the overall sound sig feels a bit hollow. I'm not familiar with ADS speakers so can't comment on that but like I said, intimate signature doesn't always mean slow and blurry (or boring for that matter). Anyway, I believe the Beyer T70P is more airy (more spacious in soundstage) compared to ESW9, so are the Denon D2000. Bass quality and quantity on EWS9 should be at least on par on better than T70P.

I just discovered some other headphones too: Audiotechnica ES7, ES10, Beyerdynamic T50P, DT1350... There must be more as well. Too many choices!

 

[baronkatz]

How do these ES7 and ES10 compare to the ESW9? And how do the portable T50P and DT1350 compare to the Amperiors (and their larger 770Pro and T70P bretheren)?

 

[kookoo]

I can't speak for the beyers but for the audio technica's
 
ES10 > ES7 in every way except for price
 
ES10 and ESW9, it depends on what kind of sound you're after the ES10 are slightly u shaped while the ESW9 are mid centric - very audio technica house sound.

 

[risenfallen]

Quote:

How do these ES7 and ES10 compare to the ESW9? And how do the portable T50P and DT1350 compare to the Amperiors (and their larger 770Pro and T70P bretheren)?

 
I tried the DT1350 briefly. They sounded great but I still prefer Amperior over them. DT1350 bass lacks body compared to that of Amperior. The treble was slightly better on DT1350. I have not tried the T50P but few people like them more than the DT1350 due to spiky treble and honky mids. The two Beyers seem to have the same comfort problem for long listening session as the Amperior.

 

[baronkatz]

Quote:

I can't speak for the beyers but for the audio technica's
 
ES10 > ES7 in every way except for price
 
ES10 and ESW9, it depends on what kind of sound you're after the ES10 are slightly u shaped while the ESW9 are mid centric - very audio technica house sound.

I'm guessing by your description the ESW9 has more of a "Tube" like warm sound while the ES10 is maybe more suited to Electronic music such as Chillstep, Dubstep, Trance, etc...? The ES10 must be more like the Ultrasone while the ESW9 is more like the Denons? The ES10 are so beautiful and made of Titanium but some people say it works better Amplifier where the ESW9 is easier to drive straight from the MP3 player?
Quote:

 
I tried the DT1350 briefly. They sounded great but I still prefer Amperior over them. DT1350 bass lacks body compared to that of Amperior. The treble was slightly better on DT1350. I have not tried the T50P but few people like them more than the DT1350 due to spiky treble and honky mids. The two Beyers seem to have the same comfort problem for long listening session as the Amperior.

That really helps. I can pretty much eliminate the Amperior, DT1350 and T50P... So far in my price range from what I have gathered here is my narrowed down list:
 
1. Audio Technica ES10 (The ES7's seem awefully tempting too considering they cost half the amount)
2. Beyerdynamic 770 Pro 32Ohm LE
3. Beyerdynamic T70P
4. Audio Technica A900X (not sure, cheaper than the other two AT's which is tempting)
5. Beyerdynamic Custom One Pro (So cheap it's tempting)
 
This is all from not even having listened to any of them thanks to your help. If there's any rearranging to do to the list or any to add (or definately remove) please let me know!

 

[toonsnstuff]

It looks like you are a picky buyer like me, which is good when there are so many choices!
 
I might have some points that come a little late, now that I see your list, but here we go...
 
I have both the ESW9s and D2000s. In terms of bass, they are both great, but you are going to need an amp for the D2000 if you really want powerful bass. The ESW9s on the other hand work great straight on my iPod, although I now use a Fiio E07K for a portable amp, but it is not needed if you don't want one. From what I have read the ES10 is not as warm as the ESW9 and might be a little more reveling if you aren't playing the best quality files. I think if you can find either for a decent price on the used market I would grab them (I got my ESW9s from ebay). If you are doing a lot of moving around though, I felt neither pair stayed on my head that great, still very comfortable.
 
Another suggestion are the Sony MDR-1R. They are a little larger than the ESW9s but stay on my head very nicely when I am walking about. Even easier to drive than the ESW9s and more bass, but lose some clarity in the mid range. The highs are smooth, but cant't compete with the ESW9s, which sound amazing with female vocals. They are about $300 but I got mine on ebay for cheaper. The included cable has iPod controls as well. 
 
I know selection is hard, but if you are up for buying and selling on the used market you can try many headphones and lose much money reselling.