[gikigill]

And absolutely no evidence of the Sony biocellulose not being biodegradable has been given not to mention how about putting up the ZMF graph with a Sony graph or will you just show one side of the story.

"See the thing is, biocellulose (neither the original Ajinomoto biocellulose used in SONY phones of years past nor anything recently being manufactured) is not "biodegradable" because polymer composites are not biodegradable (even poor old vintage ones without all the modern goodness) lol... given that you seem to still have this idea and are just throwing other stuff left and right, it isn't worth my time to go further on the materials science topic with you"

.Maybe teach the folks below that bacterial cellulose is not biodegradable.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8839122/

 

[gikigill]

Looks like the R10 cant reproduce bass/subass as below 100hz there is a steep drop. So much for all the fancy material when you cant even produce the full range of musical information and reason why I sold my CD3000.

I,ll give one credit to Sony though and that was the earcups and their internal shape which still holds up.

 

[tabness]

And absolutely no evidence of the Sony biocellulose not being biodegradable has been given not to mention how about putting up the ZMF graph with a Sony graph or will you just show one side of the story.

"See the thing is, biocellulose (neither the original Ajinomoto biocellulose used in SONY phones of years past nor anything recently being manufactured) is not "biodegradable" because polymer composites are not biodegradable (even poor old vintage ones without all the modern goodness) lol... given that you seem to still have this idea and are just throwing other stuff left and right, it isn't worth my time to go further on the materials science topic with you"

.Maybe teach the folks below that bacterial cellulose is not biodegradable.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8839122/

So you have literally claimed that biocellulose drivers rot and biodegrade and then point to a research paper generally discussing bacterial cellulose lol. You can't see how this is an equivocation similar to the last one about composites and planes and cars lol? Are you aware of how much biocellulose to polymer ratio is in biocellulose headphone drivers (pick any biocellulose driver example you want)? Do you know how the ratio in transducer material differs from other usages of bacterial cellulose (such as compostable eating utensils or what not)? Please just stop lol because biocellulose drivers do not rot or biodegrade

Looks like the R10 cant reproduce bass/subass as below 100hz there is a steep drop. So much for all the fancy material when you cant even produce the full range of musical information and reason why I sold my CD3000.

I,ll give one credit to Sony though and that was the earcups and their internal shape which still holds up.

Sure let's put distortion graphs of the CD3000 (don't have one for the R10 or others) with the ZMF above:

As with the other things I bought up, this is pretty disappointing for all the high falutin modern improvements and all that lol

I didn't really even discuss the frequency response because that is a matter of taste, but yeah, give me a subbass rolloff anyday over whatever the hell is happening in some of these modern summit fi offerings (at least the Utopia I bought measured so nicely and neutrally comparatively lol)

 

[gikigill]

Of course the ZMF has higher distortion considering it actually produces loads more low end.

Not hard to see distortion is a magnitude more when the output is magnitudes more.

Question is whether the CD3000 can produce similar levels of low end while keeping the same level of distortion besides the ZMF is lower at 94db.

"So you have literally claimed that biocellulose drivers rot and biodegrade and then point to a research paper generally discussing bacterial cellulose lol. You can't see how this is an equivocation similar to the last one about composites and planes and cars lol? Are you aware of how much biocellulose to polymer ratio is in biocellulose headphone drivers (pick any biocellulose driver example you want)? Do you know how the ratio in transducer material differs from other usages of bacterial cellulose (such as compostable eating utensils or what not)? Please just stop lol because biocellulose drivers do not rot or biodegrade"

And what polymer does Sony use in its drivers?

 

[tabness]

Of course the ZMF has higher distortion considering it actually produces loads more low end.

Not hard to see distortion is a magnitude more when the output is magnitudes more.

Question is whether the CD3000 can produce similar levels of low end while keeping the same level of distortion besides the ZMF is lower at 94db.

"So you have literally claimed that biocellulose drivers rot and biodegrade and then point to a research paper generally discussing bacterial cellulose lol. You can't see how this is an equivocation similar to the last one about composites and planes and cars lol? Are you aware of how much biocellulose to polymer ratio is in biocellulose headphone drivers (pick any biocellulose driver example you want)? Do you know how the ratio in transducer material differs from other usages of bacterial cellulose (such as compostable eating utensils or what not)? Please just stop lol because biocellulose drivers do not rot or biodegrade"

And what polymer does Sony use in its drivers?

Man you can ignore the subbass and just look at straight around 1.8 kHz where we are actually very sensitive to distortion lol (and even on the subbass, actually it's the other way around, you would expect more distortion with the CD3000 because it cannot produce lows like the ZMF).

So again, where is this high falutin technological improvement on ZMF (I mean as I called out at least with the Sennheiser ring radiator and the Focal M dome they actually hit their design targets and have some of the lowest distortion dynamics around)? And moving beyond dynamics, why is STAX using membranes thicker than they had in the mid eighties (and about the same size for the last 30 years)? Why can't they figure out channel imbalance even while charging way more for their new multi layer electrode stuff? As Sting said, "you could say I've lost my faith in science and progress" lol

I'm not exactly sure what SONY/Ajinomoto used (something PET/ABS), but biocellulose drivers have barely any organic compound and do not decompose and it's a pure equivocation to compare them with like a compostable fork. This is why they still running fine (not just in the headphones, in the speaker tweeters too) and it's the foam that deteriorates on the SONY phones and in the cases of dead drivers it always has to do with a torn voice coil (otherwise why is one driver completely fine, why do failures happen haphazardly across the lifespan and more on the recent R10s made in the late nineties which were recabled more, never heard of a case where both drivers failed anywhere close in time as you'd expect with biodegrading drivers lol).

 

[gikigill]

Man you can ignore the subbass and just look at straight around 1.8 kHz where we are actually very sensitive to distortion lol (and even on the subbass, actually it's the other way around, you would expect more distortion with the CD3000 because it cannot produce lows like the ZMF).

So again, where is this high falutin technological improvement on ZMF (I mean as I called out at least with the Sennheiser ring radiator and the Focal M dome they actually hit their design targets and have some of the lowest distortion dynamics around)? And moving beyond dynamics, why is STAX using membranes thicker than they had in the mid eighties (and about the same size for the last 30 years)? Why can't they figure out channel imbalance even while charging way more for their new multi layer electrode stuff? As Sting said, "you could say I've lost my faith in science and progress" lol

I'm not exactly sure what SONY/Ajinomoto used (something PET/ABS), but biocellulose drivers have barely any organic compound and do not decompose and it's a pure equivocation to compare them with like a compostable fork. This is why they still running fine (not just in the headphones, in the speaker tweeters too) and it's the foam that deteriorates on the SONY phones and in the cases of dead drivers it always has to do with a torn voice coil (otherwise why is one driver completely fine, why do failures happen haphazardly across the lifespan and more on the recent R10s made in the late nineties which were recabled more, never heard of a case where both drivers failed anywhere close in time as you'd expect with biodegrading drivers lol).

Sony used polyester in its drivers. The more you know.

And thank you for admitting the CD3K cant do the lows of ZMF as I was not discussing the 1.8k response in the first place.

 

[tabness]

Sony used polyester in its drivers. The more you know.

And thank you for admitting the CD3K cant do the lows of ZMF as I was not discussing the 1.8k response in the first place.

Cool, do you have the source for the polyester (which by the way also isn't biodegradable lol)? I'd always love to know more about the biocellulose SONY stuff. If you are referring to Vectran, then that is for the later SONY biocellulose stuff (CD2000 for sure, maybe CD1700 I'm not sure). They didn't use Vectran on the R10 or CD3000 which came out earlier.

Yes, and when did I ever say otherwise about the subbass response (even though this ZMF example is the not the one you want to compare obviously, use a Utopia or a HD 800 or something lol which I've admitted does better there)

The 1.8 kHz distortion figure tells me all I need to know about how much superior the ZMF driver technology is as was claimed (the bass heavy tuning sucks too but that's a matter of opinion)

 

[Philimon]

And moving beyond dynamics, why is STAX using membranes thicker than they had in the mid eighties (and about the same size for the last 30 years)?

Enjoying the debate but I think this might be incorrect unless you have a source. I Stax has gone with thinner and thinner membranes over time.
https://www.headphoneer.com/stax-history-part-1/

 

[tabness]

Enjoying the debate but I think this might be incorrect unless you have a source. I Stax has gone with thinner and thinner membranes over time.
https://www.headphoneer.com/stax-history-part-1

The membranes did certainly get thinner from 1960 to 1987 but after bottoming out at 1 nanometer STAX decided to go back to 1.5/1.35 membranes.

good site on STAX details/measurements

https://www.inexxon.com/stax-übersicht-history/1980-1990-kopfhörer-headphones/sr-lambda-signature/

 

[gikigill]

Cool, do you have the source for the polyester (which by the way also isn't biodegradable lol)? I'd always love to know more about the biocellulose SONY stuff. If you are referring to Vectran, then that is for the later SONY biocellulose stuff (CD2000 for sure, maybe CD1700 I'm not sure). They didn't use Vectran on the R10 or CD3000 which came out earlier.

Yes, and when did I ever say otherwise about the subbass response (even though this ZMF example is the not the one you want to compare obviously, use a Utopia or a HD 800 or something lol which I've admitted does better there)

The 1.8 kHz distortion figure tells me all I need to know about how much superior the ZMF driver technology is as was claimed (the bass heavy tuning sucks too but that's a matter of opinion)

https://patents.google.com/patent/JPH06284495A/ja

This is the exact patent
It even describes how the biocellulose is deposited on top of a polyester film thus making it not a composite since the biocellulose stays separate at all times and can hence biodegrade. It's not mixed with the polyester.

 

[tabness]

https://patents.google.com/patent/JPH06284495A/ja

This is the exact patent
It even describes how the biocellulose is deposited on top of a polyester film thus making it not a composite since the biocellulose stays separate at all times and can hence biodegrade. It's not mixed with the polyester.

Thanks for sharing but looking at the application date (1993) and skimming through this seems like the patent for Vectran biocellulose drivers, not the original ones that were on the R10/CD3000/some speaker tweeters.

(Vectran biocellulose drivers don't "biodegrade" either nor do any others I'm aware of, the leather and maybe even wood on these phones would seem to be the first things do go in terms of actual rotting)

Lastly any fiber reinforced plastic (such as the mechanism described in the patent) is by definition, a composite.

 

[gikigill]

Thanks for sharing but looking at the application date (1993) and skimming through this seems like the patent for Vectran biocellulose drivers, not the original ones that were on the R10/CD3000/some speaker tweeters.

(Vectran biocellulose drivers don't "biodegrade" either nor do any others I'm aware of, the leather and maybe even wood on these phones would seem to be the first things do go in terms of actual rotting)

Lastly any fiber reinforced plastic (such as the mechanism described in the patent) is by definition, a composite.

This is the exact original patent, I can't find the original patent from 1990 but this is a word for word reproduction of the 1990 patent.

 

[Davidzak64]

Akg K340

Another vintage gem from 1979 that has an amazingly unique sound definitely worth owning.

 

[msing539]

Is this thread a tier list?

No wait, let me read some more...

Still don't know what this is.

 

[r343]

Each headphone has a unique feature that makes it an S-tier status; with this list, there are about 100 legendary headphones.

In no particular order or rank or favoritism:

Sennheiser HD800 og version 1-999 versions

What on earth happened to serials above 999! Did someone tamper with schematics