Headphone Burn-in
Feb 28, 2011 at 5:57 AM Post #46 of 167
Think a bit before you write such a statement. A graphics card is a low voltage, low current, high frequency device. An amplifier is a medium voltage, high current, very low frequency device. They are not comparable.
 
...And what makes you so sure that a graphics card output (analogue, of course) stays exactly "identical" throughout its life? 
 
Feb 28, 2011 at 8:08 AM Post #48 of 167
I believe my ears. And as an electrotechnical engineer, I also realise that there is alot we don't know about semiconductors, physicists don't seem to be fond of this area. Even if we disregard them, there are still coils and windings that are subject to kinetic forces when current is applied, and it's not outrageous that during the first few hours they physically settle down into more "lifelong" positions.
 
And this is not even going into electrolytic caps, that change their parameters over time, eventually causing devices to fail -- I have quite a collection of broken power supplies due to bad caps.
 
Feb 28, 2011 at 12:52 PM Post #49 of 167


Quote:
I believe my ears. And as an electrotechnical engineer, I also realise that there is alot we don't know about semiconductors, physicists don't seem to be fond of this area. Even if we disregard them, there are still coils and windings that are subject to kinetic forces when current is applied, and it's not outrageous that during the first few hours they physically settle down into more "lifelong" positions.
 
And this is not even going into electrolytic caps, that change their parameters over time, eventually causing devices to fail -- I have quite a collection of broken power supplies due to bad caps.


I agree with you somewhat. Maybe there is burn in within the first few hours. Maximum. I don't believe in 300+ hour burn in or even 10+ hours. It's just your ears getting acclimated to the sound.
 
Feb 28, 2011 at 3:17 PM Post #50 of 167
Wildstar: If an electronic part for example change its parameters slightly, it doesn't matter that it necessarily change sound of the whole amp. Besides, parts change theirs parameters all the time because temperature changes.
 
BTW Graphics cards take lots of current, probably more than average mosfet headphone amp.
 
Feb 28, 2011 at 6:50 PM Post #51 of 167
Originally Posted by akgfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Wildstar: If an electronic part for example change its parameters slightly, it doesn't matter that it necessarily change sound of the whole amp. Besides, parts change theirs parameters all the time because temperature changes.

I wrote it in my post, temperature has a major effect. Burn-in changes are minuscule compared to the difference in sound when a device is cold and when it is at nominal operating temperature.
 
(And regarding the graphics card, that current goes into the GPU, not the DAC. My opinions here are about analogue devices only).
 
 
Mar 7, 2011 at 11:34 AM Post #52 of 167
Theory

Youngs modulus = Stress / strain , elastic fatigue is 0 for perfect materials but incase of headphone diaphrams they DO have some value which changes strain or impact on them. 

thus changing sound
 
Mar 7, 2011 at 1:50 PM Post #53 of 167
The idea of temperature and sound quality has been rarely discussed here - but it seems to make perfect sense, at least theoretically.
 
It would be rather easy to test - the main problem being, condensation of moisture in test headphones. I believe I've noticed differences in sound between icy cold headphones and room temperature, but I'm not sure how comfortable using a pair of K701s or HD800s to test the sound differences. 
 
Mar 7, 2011 at 6:29 PM Post #54 of 167


Quote:
quite correct to go deeper google "Young's modulus of elasticity", every elastic material even plastic materials have some value of Y or Young's modulus, since speakers have a larger diameter they need more "stress" or work to be done on them for the fibers in the material to be re-aligned in the best possible pattern to reduce strain on them.
 
Burn in is a repetitive process but the first one has maximum effect.  


What?!? That's a fabulous non sequitur.  Stress /= work.
 
Since stress is force per unit area, yes, a larger force is needed to reach a given amount of stress for a larger diaphragm of equivalent design - but the actual level of stress is also dependent on the diaphragm design, shape, materials, and more...  Thus the stress experienced by any given part of the driver cannot in any way be directly correlated to the work done to it when we're talking about different designs.
 
And the fibers being re-aligned in the best possible pattern to reduce strain on them?  What's the exact cause of this so-called "re-alignment"?  The only transducer material containing fibers of any sort are paper or fiber-reinforced cones and domes - and the paper is never part of the suspension - it never plastically deforms (not even small parts of the cone/dome), which would indeed cause some changes.
 
Now the suspension, which is of course an isotropic polymer in almost every case - whether it's a separate rubber or foam suspension for a cone or a molded part of a dome - certainly undergoes higher levels of stress/strain (its job is to flex, after all...).  There are going to be residual stresses from the molding process that are "fighting" to return to a different shape, but if some parts of the suspension were actually be pretty close to yielding (plastically deforming) as a result, those parts of the suspension would stretch out, reducing the residual stresses. 
 
However, if that were the case, I would have expected to get far more failures due to fatigue, because there would still be many points within the suspension that don't quite reach yielding with each cycle.  But...  When's the last time you saw a driver suspension that wasn't overworked to the point of ridiculousness fail of fatigue?  The truth is, other things break drivers first almost all of the time.  For the suspension itself, material deterioration unrelated to fatigue is the primary problem - foam rot, rubber cracking, and domes getting brittle with age.  Those problems are independent of fatigue.
 

 
Quote:
Who said burn in makes the SQ magically increase. It has little effect on the sound, rather it is a natural process that occurs again and again, the only thing that changes is the weave pattern of the cone and diaphragm to handle more stress with lesser strain.


So you're saying that the cones and diaphragms get stiffer when breaking in?  And as a result of changes in the weave pattern?  Don't tell that to my polypropelyne woofers, they might go on strike!
 
Seriously, there's no work hardening going on unless there's plastic deformation.  And there isn't in the cones or the non-suspension parts of diaphragms.  And like I said before, there may be minute plastic deformations in the surround, but until we see some tests or the testimonial of a real materials engineer, we don't know.  And yet again, like I said before, that plastic deformation would also be causing serious fatigue problems if it's continuously happening every time you cycle the driver.  And we know there's few fatigue failures of speaker transducers.
 


Quote:
Theory

Youngs modulus = Stress / strain , elastic fatigue is 0 for perfect materials but incase of headphone diaphrams they DO have some value which changes strain or impact on them. 

thus changing sound


Oooh, another non sequitur!  Again, if fatigue were a significant factor in the response of transducer suspensions, we would see far more failures as a result of it.  Rather than virtually none.
 
Your argument wouldn't be so bad if you explained it a bit more - for example: "Headphone diaphragms suffer from fatigue cracking as a result of the elastic deformation of the diaphragm during normal use.  Those cracks, which enlarge over time, increase the strain (deformation) of the diaphragm at a given signal level - thus changing sound."
 
But again, we see little to no failures due to fatigue cracking.
 
 
 
Honestly, we won't know the truth until someone does an independent investigation into the matter.  It's actually pretty close to my thesis topic - fatigue failure of bicycle spokes - but I'm already pretty much set on that.
 
Mar 9, 2011 at 10:56 AM Post #55 of 167


Quote:
 
Seriously, there's no work hardening going on unless there's plastic deformation.  And there isn't in the cones or the non-suspension parts of diaphragms.  And like I said before, there may be minute plastic deformations in the surround, but until we see some tests or the testimonial of a real materials engineer, we don't know.  And yet again, like I said before, that plastic deformation would also be causing serious fatigue problems if it's continuously happening every time you cycle the driver.  And we know there's few fatigue failures of speaker transducers.
 



Oooh, another non sequitur!  Again, if fatigue were a significant factor in the response of transducer suspensions, we would see far more failures as a result of it.  Rather than virtually none.
 
Your argument wouldn't be so bad if you explained it a bit more - for example: "Headphone diaphragms suffer from fatigue cracking as a result of the elastic deformation of the diaphragm during normal use.  Those cracks, which enlarge over time, increase the strain (deformation) of the diaphragm at a given signal level - thus changing sound."
 
But again, we see little to no failures due to fatigue cracking.
 
 
 
Honestly, we won't know the truth until someone does an independent investigation into the matter.  It's actually pretty close to my thesis topic - fatigue failure of bicycle spokes - but I'm already pretty much set on that.

 
I'm a materials engineer. You almost brought a tear to my eye because you seem to have a decent understanding of material deformation mechanisms . Well... somewhat, but I can't tell from your post alone.
 
In any event, fiber realignment from normal use is pretty absurd. My main hobby is cycling, and you don't see carbon fiber wheels or frames failing because of fiber realignment. It just doesn't happen. The stresses aren't nearly high enough to cause any sort of permanent deformation. As far as residual stresses go, if there are any they are very small in comparison to what the material will be subjected to during normal operation, which I already said is quite small compared to the plastic regime.
 
As far as I'm concerned there isn't any noticeable burn it that can be measured. But then again my specialties are with high temperature oxidatively stable intermetallics and failure analysis, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
 
I'm also pretty interested in what you plan on doing with fatigue failure of spokes. PM me with details if you can, since after all cycling/racing is my main hobby.
 
 
 
Mar 28, 2011 at 10:50 AM Post #56 of 167
I stand corrected,
 
Lets take a simple polymer geometry, poly(methylene) for now,
 
  H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H
--C -- C  --C -- C  -- C -- C  -- C -- C  --     on this level atoms can rotate (due to the sigma bonds and Sp3 hybridization only on a TEMPORARY basis)* and as a bulk (macroscopic) 
  H     H     H     H     H     H     H     H           level there cannot be permanent plastic deformation but yes it can be proved that the elastic properties of that material will certainly change
                                                                      rather by a very small amount over time. yes i agree i was incorrect in saying that permanent deformations occur. Geometry is very important in the  amplitude that can be attained. Antenna's use the Lambda/2 rule to have maximum signal reception and minimize standing waves. similarly the temporary changes in relatively minute arrangement on a microscopic level can be a cause to change amplitude. Young's modulus will defiantly matter on how the material responds to forced vibrations and in a transient approach (real-time). 
*this is only 1 segment the actually geometry would not allow bonds to rotate or re-align permanently but yes they can flex for short periods of time.
 
conclusion:
Plastic deformation (which does not occur at high enough levels to cause failure) is NOT signifiacant in the burn-in process.
However, transient changes in geometry is possible and does alter the amplitude (super-imposed form reflected wave and directed wave) in minute ways.
 
Mar 28, 2011 at 10:04 PM Post #57 of 167
I was going to write a long drawn out response, but I think the following will do.
 
You say that plastic deformation is not significant in the burn in process. Agreed.
 
If that's the case, how could the speaker materials change to alter the sound production qualities?
 
You said, transient changes in geometry. While I don't agree that those changes are large enough to cause any sort of audible difference, let's assume they do because it doesn't change my point anyways.
 
The fact that the speaker geometry would change with every single pulse/wave and will return to its original geometry once the stimulus is removed makes physical burn in a myth. No change in speaker geometry = no change in sound
 
 
And for future reference when you want to name polymers you can just use the base unit i.e (-CH2-) because we'll get the picture.
 
Mar 29, 2011 at 5:44 AM Post #59 of 167
While in my limited knowledge and only an electron microscope which i am permitted use at the university it is quite clear that molecular re-alignments occur and although i don't have an audio lab at my disposal i made some measurements using a pair of laser detectors (a pair of laser and a detector diametrically fired) (least count 0.005mm) to see the actual amplitude change.
 
If we go down to a resolution of 56ms (maximum my home made DAC can handle :frowning2: ) it was defiantly clear that "ALMOST" audible differences were there, but as for permanent changes I've started to think that my theory doesn't fit here. The stresses are simply too low for plastic deformation to occur at a macroscopic level. However "elasticity" and even elastic lag(ratio) do show values to change at a fixed temperature. 
 
Things are baad currently my TCU (temperature control unit) wont work :frowning2: i need data at STP I'll defiantly post some results of Y and K at  2.2cmX2.2cm of the test material with a load of 25gm and 50gm after a few days. 
 
does any one have idea's on how to keep temperatures for solids stable? I have an Air based TCU but I'll try a radiation based one (to much $$$ ) 
 
till then i think plastic deformation is NOT an answer to burn-in.
 
p.s do you guys do interns while studying? i am on a very limited budget i can only pay what i can earn at the end of the day which is sadly not enough even after 20hrs + weekly :frowning2:
 
 
 
 
 
Mar 29, 2011 at 12:17 PM Post #60 of 167
Can you give us more details of exactly what it is you are doing?  Your procedure, etc.?  It's not clear at all what in fact you are doing, and without knowing the details it's impossible to say anything about it.
 
Oh, and during undergrad I did summer internships, but even at $10,000 a summer it's nowhere near enough to pay for school in the US.  Loans were essential.
 

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