[tfarney]

Quote:

But to be honest, I still cannot detach myself completely from the thought of owning a pair of class A/B mono blocks. There is just that emotional allure that defies rationality. Sort of makes me feel kind of old already

Thats a potentially very expensive emotional allure.

Here's what you should do: Order one of the irrationally cheap Panasonics, from someone who will give you 30 days trial. Mine is an SA XR-55, but I don't think there are many of those left. You'll probably have to go up the the XR-57, which you don't need for 2 channel, but it's so cheap, what the heck? This is going to put about $250 on your credit card for awhile.

When you get it in, make sure you read the set-up carefully. If you set the fronts for small speakers, it will sound anemic in 2-channel, or you set the system for multi channel, it just won't maximize the amps. But if you set it up right, for large, front-only speakers, it will send 2 of its too many amps to each of your speakers, unless you have bi-wireable speakers, then it will send 2 amps to each woofer, 1 to each tweeter. The amps are 100 watts each into 6 ohms, so what is that, about 75 watts into 8 ohms? Plenty of power for most speakers.

Hook it up. Give it a week. You will not send it back. You may, at some point, buy an all-digital class D amp from a more respectable brand with better looks, user interface and build quality. But you won't send it back. Wanna bet?

Tim

 

[furball]

My speakers are 4 ohms, and can on occasion dip down to 2 ohms. From what I have read, switching amps have an easier time driving 8 ohm loads than 4 ohm loads. I need a beefy class A/B amp to drive my 4 ohm speakers. That was the reason why I went with my heavy class A/B integrated amp (52 lbs).

When the switching amps can properly drive 4 ohm or even 2 ohm loads, then I will be ready to switch.


Those class A/B mono blocks are expensive. But they sure look pretty.

 

[scompton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'd bet quite a bit of money that in a double blind test with the similar headroom and the volume levels equalized, playing through the same speakers, most people, audiophiles included, couldn't consistently spot the difference between a $300 reciever and a $3000 preamp/amp combo, if (and this is a big if) the engineering objective of the high-end stuff was neutrality, not color (musicality, warmth, euphoria, whatever).

Here's the test you described. It even includes you Panny, which came close, but still got knocked out in the first round. The winner was the $150 Trends T amp. The amps varied in price between $140 and $2200. Most were under $600. They listed $300 for your Panny, so they're probably using list prices. I ended up buying the SI Super T, even though it also was knocked out in the first round. I got a used one for $75 and couldn't pass it up. Your Panny does sound very nice.

They also have a link to a test of power amps, but the cheapest one is $1300, so it's not applicable to me.

SHOOTOUT2007

 

[furball]

Wow, that little Trends wow the contest. I can't believe how tiny that amp is.

That Onkyo came in second place. I think you can find it for about $600. A very nice switching integrated amp.

 

[scompton]

For the most part, I think they were all pretty close. A lot of the head to heads, the winning amp won 3-2 with one or more judges saying it was hard to pick. My bet is that you can be happy with any of those amps if you can get a good deal. I'm currently using my Super T to drive Stax SR-3 clones at work.

Could I do better? Sure, but probably not for $75, or with as small of a foot print (except for the Trends). Unfortunately, the Trends tends to go for near list price, even used. $150 is still a very good deal for it IMO.

The problem with the Trends and Super T, at least for this thread is that they're speaker amps only, and they don't sound good driving headphones off of the speaker outs with an adapter. The SI v2 T amp has a headphone jack, but it sounds lousy.

IMO, for a home headphone amp, the best deals are vintage. Haunt you local thrift stores. I got a early 80s vintage NAD integrated amp at Goodwill for $10. It has a fantastic headphone out. I've also seen a 70s vintage HK receiver for $15. I'm hoping someone will drop off a nice old tube amp

Edit: It'd really be interesting to see that type of shootout with headphone amps.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by furball /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, that little Trends wow the contest. I can't believe how tiny that amp is. That Onkyo came in second place. I think you can find it for about $600. A very nice switching integrated amp.

Thanks. I've actually seen that shoot-out. They all ran close enough that I'd still make my bet that if you ran the tests long enough to get a statistical sample, no one would be able to consistently pick the $2300 amp from any of the rest. You could even throw a few mainstream receivers from Best Buy in there and I'd still lay my money down.

Tim

 

[furball]

Stereomojo also did a shootout comparing several different dedicated class D amps (not integrated amps).

What caught my interest was the Cary amp. I've known Cary to make very good tube amps, never thought I would see the day that Cary would start making switching amps.

But that Cary switching amp sure looks sweet. Too bad it lists for $1,400, way more than what I can spend right now.


I agree with you, unless being asked to drive very demanding (i.e. low impedance load) speakers, most el cheapo receivers should be able to do a commendable job.

Well, here's to hoping that switching amps will drop down in price, allowing us, the less well financially endowed masses, to finally be able to afford audiophile grade amps.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by furball /img/forum/go_quote.gif Stereomojo also did a shootout comparing several different dedicated class D amps (not integrated amps). What caught my interest was the Cary amp. I've known Cary to make very good tube amps, never thought I would see the day that Cary would start making switching amps. But that Cary switching amp sure looks sweet. Too bad it lists for $1,400, way more than what I can spend right now.

Is the Cary digital class D or analog? Because I'm having a hard time imagining what could possibly be in there to drive the price up to $1400.

Quote:

I agree with you, unless being asked to drive very demanding (i.e. low impedance load) speakers, most el cheapo receivers should be able to do a commendable job.

There is a huge thread on the Panasonics over on the AVS forums. Somewhere in there are a couple of guys who tested them against a couple very difficult loads - Vandersteens and Magnaplanars - with good results.

Quote:

Well, here's to hoping that switching amps will drop down in price, allowing us, the less well financially endowed masses, to finally be able to afford audiophile grade amps.

i'm not sure they're going to drop in price much more than a 7.1 channel HT receiver with a total of 700 watts into 6 ohms for $250, and I think the desire for "audiophile grade" misses the point. Digital class D amps need quality jacks and speaker terminals; everything in the middle - tone, volume, switching, is digital. All the old rules, that created the justifiable expense in audiophile grade equimpment do not apply. That is the way I understand it, at any rate, and I sure have the sonic evidence in my den. I could be missing something...

Tim

 

[furball]

Cary makes tube amps, class A/B amps, and a class D amp. Yep, that Cary class D amp lists for $1,400. Cary even posts a picture of the inside of that amp on their website. After having looked at that picture, I have been wondering how that $1,400 price tag is justified.


Maggies require extraordinary amounts of power to make them sing. You can get sound out of a pair of maggies when you hook them up to a small amp, but the sound quality is not very good, worse, the difficult load would even fry that small amp. With the likes of maggies, I would like to stick with beefy class A/B amps for now.



Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is the Cary digital class D or analog? Because I'm having a hard time imagining what could possibly be in there to drive the price up to $1400.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by furball /img/forum/go_quote.gif Cary makes tube amps, class A/B amps, and a class D amp. Yep, that Cary class D amp lists for $1,400. Cary even posts a picture of the inside of that amp on their website. After having looked at that picture, I have been wondering how that $1,400 price tag is justified. Maggies require extraordinary amounts of power to make them sing. You can get sound out of a pair of maggies when you hook them up to a small amp, but the sound quality is not very good, worse, the difficult load would even fry that small amp. With the likes of maggies, I would like to stick with beefy class A/B amps for now.

I just know one of the guys on the AVS forum tried the Panasonic with his Maggies and liked the results. Haven't heard it myself. But the Panny is not a small amp. In 2-channel mode it delivers a minimum of 200 watts per channel @ 6 ohms. Bi-wired, it's 300 watts p ch.

If the Panny is too cheesy for you (and I would completely understand that) take a look at the Onkyo. It's only 85 watts (8 ohms), and a simple integrated so it doesn't deiver the value the Panny does, but if you're like me, you don't really have any need for all those features and all that power anyway. And it does deliver great price/performance compared to the Cary, in a package that is much more audiophile-respectable:

About $500 street.

Oh yeah, the question about the Cary - it doesn't have to be digital to be Class D. I won't pretend to understand that, but i have read it. I would assume it is digital, though.

Tim

 

[furball]

That Onkyo integrated is the second place winner in that stereomojo shootout another poster posted earlier. It is a great integrated amp.

And with this integrated amp, Onkyo did something different. Instead of using a switching power supply, Onkyo used a traditional power supply to supply the digital amp module. This is the reason why this Onkyo weighs more than comparable switching amps.

The manufacturer of H20 amps use the same philosophy, massive traditional power supplies paired with digital amp modules. Pretty nifty concept really. But unlike the Onyko integrated, the H20 amps cost a pretty penny.

 

[tfarney]

Furball,

I just linked from Cary's site to a review of the Class D integrated. Nowhere, in either place, did I find the word "digital," so I suspect the Cary is a class D design, but uses analog amps. Not the same thing as the Panny or the Onkyo at all.

The other dead giveaway is the one criticism in the review -- a lack of air, extension and detail in the highs, compared to the reviewer's reference. That would not be a problem with digital, or at least not with the Panny. You would have to deliberately design those things out of it somehow.

Tim

 

[plaidplatypus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jujulio /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi , first thing i am a noob so don't blame me! ^^ i have a a HD650, and i intend to use a computer ass source with many flac songs. I intend to use a USB dac probably KECES 151...but then what comes after? i would mainly use my HD650....but maybe speakers too who knows? (i don't!!) so what about a receiver? The thing is, headphone amps are specially designed for hps whereas receivers are mainly for speakers...am i wrong? so what about SQ if i chose a receiver over a hp amp?

Does your motherboard or soundcard have a S/PDIF out either RCA or Toslink (optical)?

 

[furball]

I thought class D is the same thing as digital amp.


Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif Furball, I just linked from Cary's site to a review of the Class D integrated. Nowhere, in either place, did I find the word "digital," so I suspect the Cary is a class D design, but uses analog amps. Not the same thing as the Panny or the Onkyo at all. The other dead giveaway is the one criticism in the review -- a lack of air, extension and detail in the highs, compared to the reviewer's reference. That would not be a problem with digital, or at least not with the Panny. You would have to deliberately design those things out of it somehow. Tim

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by furball /img/forum/go_quote.gif I thought class D is the same thing as digital amp.

Nope. I won't pretend to understand it. Maybe somebody will come along and explain it to both of us. But class D is a design specification, like A and A/B. Whether or not it is digital is, so I've been told, a separate issue. In fact, I'd guess that the Onkyo, because it doesn't use the transformer switching scheme that is, I believe, characteristic of class D, is digital, but not class D. Again, I don't pretend to understand. This is half what i've read and half conjecture.

Tim