[Mr. Morden]

I currently plug my headphones (AT M50s, Sennheiser HD595, and AKG K340 electrostats) directly into my sound card on my PC (HT Claro Omega Plus+). This works fine, a bit less so for the AKGs though, but I am looking to upgrade to some new headphones and I think they'll need dedicated amplification. I'm thinking of just running the L/R analog outs from the HT Claro into a desktop headphone amp to drive my headphones (As opposed to some who would output to a DAC). First off, does this sound like a good idea? I thought these external DACs really just kind of supplanted traditional sound cards because they're a little more versatile and usable on laptops too.
 
I'm actually considering some of the Hifiman HE headphones (HE-400, HE-400i, HE-500, HE-4) in addition to what I mentioned, but not decided yet. All headphones that I've heard need good amplification (And my K340's do as well). So on to the actual amp, I'm not really sure where to go here. All I'm aware of are the Schiit amps (and I am not a fan of their decidedly silly name). Definitely needs to be an under $500 amplifier. Lots of stuff available at Schiit though, I see they have the Valhalla 2 and Lyr 2 as well as the original versions of both for a pretty decent discount. I'm curious in trying a tube amplifier, I have not ever had one before and already feel like they're probably a bit overhyped - but I want to experience it first hand to make final judgement. I naturally do not like bright headphones, but I want a set of headphones that is excellent for games and movies which is where the AKG K712's come in. Now, I'm wondering if the tubes (if they really make that drastic of a difference) might make the highs a little more tolerable so I could use them for a longer period of time. I'm thinking of getting the K712's for gaming/movies and the HD650's for pure musical purposes. I definitely like my HD595's and just want more of that, but have heard the thickness of the HD650's sound doesn't work the best for gaming and the like. On a related note, I'm wondering how tubes which supposedly make things more rolled off combined with the naturally rolled off sound of the HD650s might not be too rolled off. But if it makes the K712's not that bright, I might not need the HD650's?
 
Thoughts on this? A tube headphone amp will probably be my cheapest quality vector to listening to something tube, so I feel like trying it (I don't want to burn my house down with Chi-Fi tube amps, or spend over a grand on a decent one for my speaker setup). I haven't been dissatisfied with any of my solid state amps though FWIW. I'm thinking of buying whatever amp I am going to use now and trying it out with my current array of headphones, then deciding what headphones to buy. I feel if I buy a new headphone amp and then go and buy new headphones at the same time I'm going to have a hard time really telling where the upgrades really lie.

 

[Mr Rick]

  I currently plug my headphones (AT M50s, Sennheiser HD595, and AKG K340 electrostats) directly into my sound card on my PC (HT Claro Omega Plus+). This works fine, a bit less so for the AKGs though, but I am looking to upgrade to some new headphones and I think they'll need dedicated amplification. I'm thinking of just running the L/R analog outs from the HT Claro into a desktop headphone amp to drive my headphones (As opposed to some who would output to a DAC). First off, does this sound like a good idea? I thought these external DACs really just kind of supplanted traditional sound cards because they're a little more versatile and usable on laptops too.
 
I'm actually considering some of the Hifiman HE headphones (HE-400, HE-400i, HE-500, HE-4) in addition to what I mentioned, but not decided yet. All headphones that I've heard need good amplification (And my K340's do as well). So on to the actual amp, I'm not really sure where to go here. All I'm aware of are the Schiit amps (and I am not a fan of their decidedly silly name). Definitely needs to be an under $500 amplifier. Lots of stuff available at Schiit though, I see they have the Valhalla 2 and Lyr 2 as well as the original versions of both for a pretty decent discount. I'm curious in trying a tube amplifier, I have not ever had one before and already feel like they're probably a bit overhyped - but I want to experience it first hand to make final judgement. I naturally do not like bright headphones, but I want a set of headphones that is excellent for games and movies which is where the AKG K712's come in. Now, I'm wondering if the tubes (if they really make that drastic of a difference) might make the highs a little more tolerable so I could use them for a longer period of time. I'm thinking of getting the K712's for gaming/movies and the HD650's for pure musical purposes. I definitely like my HD595's and just want more of that, but have heard the thickness of the HD650's sound doesn't work the best for gaming and the like. On a related note, I'm wondering how tubes which supposedly make things more rolled off combined with the naturally rolled off sound of the HD650s might not be too rolled off. But if it makes the K712's not that bright, I might not need the HD650's?
 
Thoughts on this? A tube headphone amp will probably be my cheapest quality vector to listening to something tube, so I feel like trying it (I don't want to burn my house down with Chi-Fi tube amps, or spend over a grand on a decent one for my speaker setup). I haven't been dissatisfied with any of my solid state amps though FWIW. I'm thinking of buying whatever amp I am going to use now and trying it out with my current array of headphones, then deciding what headphones to buy. I feel if I buy a new headphone amp and then go and buy new headphones at the same time I'm going to have a hard time really telling where the upgrades really lie.

If it were me I think I'd upgrade to a dedicated DAC, which is usually a step up from your onboard sound card. I would use that to drive something like a Schiit Vali. That will get you a taste of a separate DAC and tube amplifier for not a lot of $$$.  I have a Vali and HD 650s and the Vali drives them very nicely. I liked what I heard so I also got a Valhalla 2 and a Lyr 1. With that compliment of amplifiers I can experiment with headphones to my hearts content and be pretty sure I'm covered in the amplifier department.

 

[mikek200]

  If it were me I think I'd upgrade to a dedicated DAC, which is usually a step up from your onboard sound card. I would use that to drive something like a Schiit Vali. That will get you a taste of a separate DAC and tube amplifier for not a lot of $$$.  I have a Vali and HD 650s and the Vali drives them very nicely. I liked what I heard so I also got a Valhalla 2 and a Lyr 1. With that compliment of amplifiers I can experiment with headphones to my hearts content and be pretty sure I'm covered in the amplifier department.

+1 on this
I,m running the HD600,&the hd 580 with a vali/modi combo,and the results are excellent.,good strong bass,& the highs are detailed and clear
A combination I strongly recommend to anyone,looking for a small strong desktop combo.
 
Mike

 

[billybob_jcv]

At your price range, quality tube amps are a little harder to find, and that's why Schiit is so popular. For a bit more, there's amps like the Woo Audio WA3 or WA6. There's also Little Dot, but quite frankly, I would rather have a Schiit amp than a Little Dot.

 

[Mr. Morden]

So just curious, why is the HT Claro Omega Plus not "good enough" for headphones? I'm honestly of the persuasion that DACs don't make an iota of a difference, so that's why I'm a bit of a skeptic in this regard. I thought all the external DACs were for people who were using their motherboard's audio and wanted to upgrade without buying a sound card, since I too share the thought that motherboard integrated sound isn't the best (though I've never tested it, I'm not sure in a blind test if I'd even notice).

 

[Mr Rick]

  So just curious, why is the HT Claro Omega Plus not "good enough" for headphones? I'm honestly of the persuasion that DACs don't make an iota of a difference, so that's why I'm a bit of a skeptic in this regard. I thought all the external DACs were for people who were using their motherboard's audio and wanted to upgrade without buying a sound card, since I too share the thought that motherboard integrated sound isn't the best (though I've never tested it, I'm not sure in a blind test if I'd even notice).

If you are satisfied with the performance of your Claro then by all means just try a small tube type headphone amp like the Vali or Valhalla. If it's "good enough" for you that is all that really matters.

 

[Mr. Morden]

I'm not completely opposed to the idea, I was just curious what appreciable difference I'd hear with the Magni over my soundcard. I know a lot of people don't have an upgrade path from a decent sound card, so it makes sense there. Should stuff sound cleaner, better dynamics, or ?? I don't really read reviews or anything about DACs so I don't really know what people usually say about them. I'd definitely just go with the Magni though if I did. Though I have to confess, their picture of the raw circuit board really makes it look uh...spartan. Not that the number of chips and things on a board determines how good it is, but it looks like an insanely stripped down sound card. I know DACs are largely hollow cabinets for the most part, not like it needs a ton of space for what it does but I guess since my sound card was about $200 and this $100 DAC is supposed to be an upgrade is the only part that makes me a little hesitant. But they do have a 15-day trial period for the Magni, right?
 
As far as the amp goes, I can't imagine the Vali is really a great match for HD650s or the K712's. I'd imagine it would have trouble keeping up with the demand on those. I'm not opposed to solid state, but if I don't try tubes here I don't know any other way to do it and satiate the curiosity. I know Schiit says the Vali can do all that, but if that were really true what are the Valhalla and Lyr for?

 

[Mr Rick]

  I'm not completely opposed to the idea, I was just curious what appreciable difference I'd hear with the Magni over my soundcard. I know a lot of people don't have an upgrade path from a decent sound card, so it makes sense there. Should stuff sound cleaner, better dynamics, or ?? I don't really read reviews or anything about DACs so I don't really know what people usually say about them. I'd definitely just go with the Magni though if I did. Though I have to confess, their picture of the raw circuit board really makes it look uh...spartan. Not that the number of chips and things on a board determines how good it is, but it looks like an insanely stripped down sound card. I know DACs are largely hollow cabinets for the most part, not like it needs a ton of space for what it does but I guess since my sound card was about $200 and this $100 DAC is supposed to be an upgrade is the only part that makes me a little hesitant. But they do have a 15-day trial period for the Magni, right?
 
As far as the amp goes, I can't imagine the Vali is really a great match for HD650s or the K712's. I'd imagine it would have trouble keeping up with the demand on those. I'm not opposed to solid state, but if I don't try tubes here I don't know any other way to do it and satiate the curiosity. I know Schiit says the Vali can do all that, but if that were really true what are the Valhalla and Lyr for?

To be honest my first suggestion as to a separate DAC was based on the mistaken assumption that your soundcard was in some way deficient in you eyes.
 
As to the Vali. You don't have to believe us, but it really is a very capable headphone amp and does pair well with the HD 650s. ( You realize that the Vali is a tube amp, you just don't see them.)
 
 EDIT:  Schiit does a nice job of helping you decide on the right amplifier for you. Read their "Guides" section if you have not already.
 
 In the end you pays your money and take your chances.

 

 

[Mr. Morden]

Sorry, I didn't mean to seem dismissive of your advice. I'm still curious on the angle about the DAC. I'm completely unsure if I'm right or wrong about the DAC vs. soundcard thing, I've never tried a DAC. I do pipe all my devices into my Denon AVR in my main system, so in a sense I use a "DAC" there, but not really in the traditional sense.
 
I also don't disbelieve that the Vali might be plenty, I'm just kinda curious what the intended buyer is for each of those amps. Truthfully, what are they intended for? Or is it purely one of those "audiophile" things, where the more expensive ones are there for people who want to spend more money to feel better about their purchase? I mean, I think that sometimes but mostly about really expensive power amps - like McIntosh and the like but I know it's not all completely bunk. Otherwise everyone would be using $20 T-amps, $80 speakers, and $5 wires (And I'm sure those exact setups sound surprisingly good, but not going to compare to more pricey ones up to the point of diminishing returns). I'm not really budget restricted in a sense that I need this to be as cheap as possible, but I definitely want to buy what will do the job best for me - be it at the bottom or top of my budget.

 

[cel4145]

Sorry, I didn't mean to seem dismissive of your advice. I'm still curious on the angle about the DAC. I'm completely unsure if I'm right or wrong about the DAC vs. soundcard thing, I've never tried a DAC. I do pipe all my devices into my Denon AVR in my main system, so in a sense I use a "DAC" there, but not really in the traditional sense.

I also don't disbelieve that the Vali might be plenty, I'm just kinda curious what the intended buyer is for each of those amps. Truthfully, what are they intended for? Or is it purely one of those "audiophile" things, where the more expensive ones are there for people who want to spend more money to feel better about their purchase? I mean, I think that sometimes but mostly about really expensive power amps - like McIntosh and the like but I know it's not all completely bunk. Otherwise everyone would be using $20 T-amps, $80 speakers, and $5 wires (And I'm sure those exact setups sound surprisingly good, but not going to compare to more pricey ones up to the point of diminishing returns). I'm not really budget restricted in a sense that I need this to be as cheap as possible, but I definitely want to buy what will do the job best for me - be it at the bottom or top of my budget.

The Vali is for people looking for tube amp sound on a budget, although notably it is not a full tube amp. It's a hybrid tube amp, and you can't switch out the tube.

And you are right. There are extremely diminishing rates of return as you go up in price. Just like with speakers.

 

[Mr. Morden]

Does anyone else have any thoughts about the various amps in the Schiit lineup? What about the Asgard with the AKG K712s? Any other brands that can be looked at in the sub $500 price range?

 

[cel4145]

I used to have the ODAC and the Asgard 2. Switched to the Audio-GD NFB-11. Overall, I think it's a bit better (YMMV), but I was looking to get rid of the Asgard mainly because it's a heater Class A amps like that run at full power, whether or not you are using that power.

 

[Mr. Morden]

I'm kind of leaning toward the AKG K712s since all I've had are Sennheisers that are more "veiled", though I fear if the K712's aren't kind of bright. I guess I want a neutral amp that slightly leans towards warm, as opposed to something full on that will heavily roll off the highs. I can see a main use being games, but music is definitely a big one too. The Audio GD stuff looks nice, though I have concerns about service work being a direct from China kind of thing (but true for all like that).
 
How are the Little Dot amps? I remember them being talked about a lot a few years ago, but I've been out of the headphone world for a long time and have no idea anymore. Does anyone think matching something like the Asgard with the K712s would be a bad idea? I'm comfortable with solid state, but really curious about tubes and again, this is the best way for me to try them out I feel. I have an old Sansui receiver that's tube based, but it needs to be reworked and who knows what impression of tubes I'll get from it since it's from the '60s and at present - not working. How would something like the Vali or Valhalla 2 do, as those are also tube based ones I'm still thinking of. As an additional, what of these amps could drive my old AKG K340 electrostats pretty well since they're power hungry?

 

[Shaffer]

I'd suggest a Little Dot mkIII with upgraded tubes. Sounds phenomenal with my K702 and HD600. Good luck.

 

[Mr. Morden]

A question, for damping factor I want as high as possible right? I found Audiobot9000 and I've been comparing some different amps, looks like the Schiit Magni gives a damping of 310, but the Vali is 9.5 - quite a drastic difference. So what does this mean to what I'd hear comparing these two amps? If I understand correctly, damping factor determines how much the cones on the headphones are controlled and ideally that means having a high number so they're tightly controlled. But I really am not sure on this.
 
If that's the case, most tube amps don't look to be a good match to the K712's because of their impedance being 62 ohm. I'm very certain I want the K712's now, so those are definitely going to be what I go with. I'm a bit confused by Audiobot9000 though, so for the Schiit Lyr 2 it shows Damping factor 88.6 and 206.7 - what does that mean? I really think I need something that will tame the highs or I might not like the K712s, but everything else about them sounds just like what I want. Understanding this thing with the damping factor would really help decide what amp to get.