[Kol12]

I've just brought a pair of Takstar Pro 80 headphones after someone pointed them out to me and then reading some good reviews on them. So far they sound quite good, an improvement over my Sennheiser HD212. I've been thinking about getting an external amp and am wondering if I would get a better sound out of the Takstar's with one rather than my onboard sound (Asus Z97-A, Realtek ALC892 ) 
 
The Z97-A apparently has an amplifier but I can't find any specs. The Takstar's are 60 ohm. The sound stage on the takstar's doesn't seem to big. Can an external amp change that?
 
How is an external amp usually connected to a computer? Via a line out or headphone out? Does this bypass the Realtek chipset DAC if the external amp has a DAC? I also have a M-Audio 2496 soundcard and I have thought it might be better to use that to output to a external amp? The 2496 has a DAC of it's own I imagine? so in that scenario would I be looking for a amp without a DAC?
 
Could I have some recommendations on amps? Most external amps don't seem to have eq's.. Is there a solution for that?
 
Thanks.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Originally Posted by Kol12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

The Z97-A apparently has an amplifier but I can't find any specs. The Takstar's are 60 ohm. The sound stage on the takstar's doesn't seem to big. Can an external amp change that?

 

Only if the mobo's amplifier circuit has very high levels of crosstalk (ie not enough channel separation). In some cases what you might be hearing as per the soundstage is as wide much less as deep as it can go on that headphone, if not headphones in general.

 

A DSP program (whether ti comes with hardware like the DSP chip on most red motherboards and on soundcards) would have better luck widening the soundstage but no virtual surround program will be able to overcome the physical reality of the headphone drivers being smack outside your ear. That means they can give a general yet more precise direction for example of where gunfire is coming from, but it's not going to sound like it's coming from 10m away as in the game. Hell, not even HT speakers can do that, unless the speakers are also 10m away from where you're sitting.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kol12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

How is an external amp usually connected to a computer?  Via a line out or headphone out?

 

Headphone output means you connect a headphone; line output means a line level signal meant for an amplifier (or recording device of some sort).

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kol12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Does this bypass the Realtek chipset DAC if the external amp has a DAC?

 

DAC is Digital to Analogue Converter. Digital 110100001001000000101010100000011010000101011 goes in, analogue electric signal comes out; analogue electric signal goes into amplifier stage or separate amplifier. No, it won't bypass the DAC, unless you're using another kind of DAC instead, because otherwise the amp won't even see a usable signal. Or technically it can, and it can amplify it, it's just not going to sound like music, but noise.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kol12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

I also have a M-Audio 2496 soundcard and I have thought it might be better to use that to output to a external amp? The 2496 has a DAC of it's own I imagine?

 

If you want a wider stage best invest in a gaming soundcard. No matter how good the stereo separation on that M-Audio is, it's designed more for recording, so no DSP chip with the fancy processing as on gaming cards that can simulate surround positioning. Personally, if it's just for music, I'd rather not use the DSP as much as possible.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kol12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Could I have some recommendations on amps? 

 

If you really want to just get wider soundstage, short of getting new headphones, I'd suggest getting a soundcard. Or a decent enough USB soundcard like the Xonar U3 for its DSP functions, then use its combo 3.5mm jack to output a digital SPDIF optical signal to a DAC+HPamp. Like, try the Xonar U3 with sthe AudioGD NFB-15.

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kol12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Most external amps don't seem to have eq's.. Is there a solution for that?

 

They're not really supposed to - by definition an amp is an amplifier, and the job of an amplifier is only to amplify the incoming input signal into as strong a signal as it can without adding noise, distortion, nor clipping. Besides, even amps that do have some kind of EQ function only have bass boost. 

 

EQ done in software as on some music players, or a dedicated DSP hardware with its own software suite as on the Xonar U3 suite, will have a lot more variables that they can tweak. Paid music apps might even have adjustments for the Q-factor and center frequency - for example Neutron Music Player for Android has up to 10 bands where you can pick the center frequency, as well as set the gain and the Q-factor. The Q-factor in simpler terms is just a value that represents how wide (in octaves or fractions thereof) the EQ effect is. Basically, when you boost at 100hz, you don't affect just 100hz - for example the range affected is around 50hz to 200hz, but since you chose 100hz as the center frequency, then that's where it is affected the most and then frequencies above and below that are affected progressively less as you move away from that center frequency.

 

[Kol12]

Thanks for your reply. Is 

channel separation usually better on a dedicated amp? Is there any way of telling whether my mobo has high levels of crosstalk? I found this information on my chip http://i.imgur.com/ghpiRzh.jpg
 
I think I may have meant stereo imaging? rather than sound stage when referring to the takstar's as in hearing individual instruments etc.
 
"I

n some cases what you might be hearing as per the soundstage is as wide much less as deep as it can go on that headphone, if not headphones in general." I'm not sure what you mean here..
 

Does this bypass the Realtek chipset DAC if the external amp has a DAC?

 

DAC is 

D

igital to 

A

nalogue 

C

onverter. Digital 110100001001000000101010100000011010000101011 goes in, analogue electric signal comes out; analogue electric signal goes into amplifier stage or separate amplifier. No, it won't bypass the DAC, unless you're using another kind of DAC instead, because otherwise the amp won't even see a usable signal. Or technically it can, and it can amplify it, it's just not going to sound like music, but noise.

 
So if you hook your external amp up to the line out of your mobo it will use the DAC of the mobo instead of the DAC on the amp if it has one? Is this not ideal? I'm thinking some of the external amps DAC's may be better than the mobo's? This is why I thought I might use the M-Audio 2496 as the soundcard as I'm sure it has a quality DAC..
 

 

If you want a wider stage best invest in a gaming soundcard. No matter how good the stereo separation on that M-Audio is, it's designed more for recording, so no DSP chip with the fancy processing as on gaming cards that can simulate surround positioning. Personally, if it's just for music, I'd rather not use the DSP as much as possible.

 
I enjoy gaming but I'm looking to set this up more for music listening..
 

 

If you really want to just get wider soundstage, short of getting new headphones, I'd suggest getting a soundcard. Or a decent enough USB soundcard like the Xonar U3 for its DSP functions, then use its combo 3.5mm jack to output a digital SPDIF optical signal to a DAC+HPamp. Like, try the Xonar U3 with sthe AudioGD NFB-15.

 
I may have confused soundstage for stereo imaging..
 
 
The Realtek HD Audio manager has an eq but I find it doesn't tune very finely. If I end up using the M-Audio 2496 it doesn't have eq capabilities in the control panel. Most of my listening is from samples on websites and youtube although I may look into a player.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kol12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Thanks for your reply. Is 

channel separation usually better on a dedicated amp?

 

That depends - you might be comparing for example a smartphone that uses an otherwise good integrated audio chip to a badly designed amplifier, in which case, it won't. Gigabyte's gaming motherboards actually put the analogue signal path for left and right on opposite sides of the PCB just to keep them as separate as possible given how a mobo is cramped with other components unlike, say, a dedicated PCB on a stand-alone DAC or a CDP.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kol12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Is there any way of telling whether my mobo has high levels of crosstalk? I found this information on my chip http://i.imgur.com/ghpiRzh.jpg

 

Did you go to the mobo manufacturer's product page? It might be there (I checked too and half the page isn't loading, or they cut it because it's not a current product with the new Z170 boards out), although chances are they wouldn't publish much less emphasize such details unless it's one of those red motherboards that essentially has a soundcard in it. That spec sheet states the crosstalk for the chip but not for the analog amplification section that comes after it.

 

As an example there's Gigabyte's gaming motherboards (see above). Im just not sure if that actually does better than, say, Asus putting the mITX gaming board's headphone amp chips on a daughterboard for lack of space (just look at the sexy new cover on the audio section and the power section on the Maximus VIII Impact).

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kol12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

I think I may have meant stereo imaging? rather than sound stage when referring to the takstar's as in hearing individual instruments etc.

----

I may have confused soundstage for stereo imaging..

 

In use they're sometimes interchangeable. Basically, "stereo imaging" means you'd want to (re)create a 3D image of the music as best as you can with two - ie, "stereo" - speakers (do not confuse surround systems to be better at this because at least two of those will be to your flanks or behind you). It's not just hearing individual instruments, but to hear them coming from a definite location within the sound stage projected in front of you. Basically, you'd want the main vocals (red triangle) dead center and maybe pushed forward a bit, guitars to the left and right (brown; note that some electric guitars and particularly for rock and metal are often not recorded in this way, especially if there's supposed to be just one guitarist and there needs to be a "wall" of sound with distortion effect applied), bass in the center (orange); the drums need to be farther back (blue = bass drum, purple = toms and snare, yellow = cymbals), but there's definitive and believable, proportionate panning in a drum roll. 

 

Here's a hastily put-together diagram of that.

 

In some systems where reflections aren't managed well or the speakers are badly designed/matched in terms of their dispersion patterns, or with severe enough frequency imbalances, you might end up for example with a drummer that could very well be stretchy Mr.Fantastic: bass drum in front of the vocalist, cymbals close to if not farther out to the flanks than even the guitars, or you can hear the drums panning from the entire width of the soundstage instead of a space in the middle.

 

Now one of the main reasons why this is possible in a good stereo system (provided you're listening to a proper recording anyway) is anatomy - you also have two ears. Sound isn't always completely just on left or right, there's a little bit of it in the other channel otherwise it would be to the extreme left. The problem with headphones however is that your left ear can't hear the right speaker and vice versa, so there's no 3D projection in nearly all cases. Add to that how the headphone drivers (black lines, outside the head and inside the guitar boxes below) are typically smack over the ear canal, which is not where you'd position speakers. There are a few tricks so that the "trident" image (my term) - strong Left, weak Left-Center, strong Center, weak Center-Right, strong Right - can be minimized, like how some headphones mount the drivers at an angle and forward of the ear canals, and Crossfeed processing which is basically a controlled range Crosstalk (ie only affects a range above a chosen frequency). The first mimics the angle from which speakers normally would be, while the second allows your left ear to hear some of what's coming from the right channel (and vice versa) .

 

Typical headphone

 

 

 

An old diagram I used comparing the HD600 (earpads somewhat take on an angle if worn properly) and HD800 (really angled drivers on the chassis); colors don't match the other diagram - blue for HD600, red for HD800 - but shapes do.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kol12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

"I

n some cases what you might be hearing as per the soundstage is as wide much less as deep as it can go on that headphone, if not headphones in general." I'm not sure what you mean here..

 

I mean there's a very real physical limitation. No matter how hard you angle the headphone or whatever Crossfeed settings you put in, it will not be able to overcome the fact that the headphones are right outside your ears. By comparison large speakers that will retain their response even from, say, 6m away from the listener and 4m apart will be able to project a soundstage in the same size and proper proportions as if you have them playing in a small stage in a hotel jazz bar for example (provided the recording was done properly). So no matter how many thousands you blow on associated equipment like amps and DACs the soundstage will not get any larger (wider as in how far the two guitars are from each other; deeper as in how far the drums are from the vocals); similarly, no matter how much money you blow on headphones, a $10,000 headphone will still not match the soundstage size projected by properly designed speakers in a large enough room with minimal acoustic issues.

 

At best, there was this...

 

...and yet, you're not going to get a soundstage the same size as a small bar stage (let alone a stadium or an orchestra), and unlike a headphone, this thing has some frequencies that can still be loud enough to piss off people in another room (or in an adjacent apartment).

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kol12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

So if you hook your external amp up to the line out of your mobo it will use the DAC of the mobo instead of the DAC on the amp if it has one? Is this not ideal? I'm thinking some of the external amps DAC's may be better than the mobo's? This is why I thought I might use the M-Audio 2496 as the soundcard as I'm sure it has a quality DAC..

---

I enjoy gaming but I'm looking to set this up more for music listening..

 

 

Differences between decent DAC chips by themselves are mostly beyond audible range, if anything the differences will come from how the circuit was designed, in particular the analogue output stage. My advice up there was regarding the use of a DSP for gaming or even for music if you prefer its EQ feature; the thing is, whether it's on a separate soundcard or built into a red motherboard, the DSP chip no matter what features it has cannot send the processed signal back into the motherboard to exit via USB, only through the soundcard's SPDIF digital output or the red motherboard's SPDIF digital output. Software-based sound tweaking like EQ on player apps or Razer Surround however will work on USB audio.

 

Now, since you aren't too concerned with gaming and surround simulation, then you can use the 2496. I can't tell for sure how much better it is than the mobo but you already have it (and don't need Dolby Headphone from a soundcard DSP) so might as well try it.

 

[Kol12]

 

That depends - you might be comparing for example a smartphone that uses an otherwise good integrated audio chip to a badly designed amplifier, in which case, it won't. Gigabyte's gaming motherboards actually put the analogue signal path for left and right on opposite sides of the PCB just to keep them as separate as possible given how a mobo is cramped with other components unlike, say, a dedicated PCB on a stand-alone DAC or a CDP.

 

So does that mean external amplifiers are usually always better than motherboard sound chips and DACS?
 

 

Did you go to the mobo manufacturer's product page? It might be there (I checked too and half the page isn't loading, or they cut it because it's not a current product with the new Z170 boards out), although chances are they wouldn't publish much less emphasize such details unless it's one of those red motherboards that essentially has a soundcard in it. That spec sheet states the crosstalk for the chip but not for the analog amplification section that comes after it.

 

As an example there's Gigabyte's gaming motherboards (see above). Im just not sure if that actually does better than, say, Asus putting the mITX gaming board's headphone amp chips on a daughterboard for lack of space (just look at the sexy new cover on the audio section and the power section on the Maximus VIII Impact).

 

 
Asus doesn't seem to give any specs on the amplifier itself although it does have the Dedicated audio PCB layers you talked about. I don't fully understand what this means though. Can you explain further?
 

 

Differences between decent DAC chips by themselves are mostly beyond audible range, if anything the differences will come from how the circuit was designed, in particular the analogue output stage. My advice up there was regarding the use of a DSP for gaming or even for music if you prefer its EQ feature; the thing is, whether it's on a separate soundcard or built into a red motherboard, the DSP chip no matter what features it has cannot send the processed signal back into the motherboard to exit via USB, only through the soundcard's SPDIF digital output or the red motherboard's SPDIF digital output. Software-based sound tweaking like EQ on player apps or Razer Surround however will work on USB audio.

 
I'm not sure what your talking about here with USB audio.. I'm still unsure of what DAC's get used if you are plugging in a amplifier with built in DAC's to your motherboard line out or even my M-Audio 2496 which has it's own DAC's.
 
If I use the M-Audio 2496 soundcard it will most definitely need an amplifier as it has no headphone output! The question still remains if whether I will benefit from an amplifier. Not knowing the specs of the mobo amplifier makes things tricky I suppose? The Takstar Pro 80 I have are 60 ohm. Specs here http://snw.co.nz/?cms_do=sale&sale_do=sale_show_one_product&product_id=245
 
I've looked at some of the amplifiers they have as well, what do you think of them? http://snw.co.nz/?cms_do=sale&sale_do=sale_show_product&storeid=1&categoryid=46

 

[obobskivich]

Just to add to ProtegeManiac's (excellent) points:

- The M-Audio 2496 actually does support h/w DSP (it has a VIA Envy24 on it), but it doesn't have any software from M-Audio that implements features there (e.g. it doesn't have Dolby Headphone). In theory though, depending on your software configuration, there are games that can take advantage of that. Either way, it is an excellent line-out source for a PC, and has very basic drivers (this is a good thing imho - less clutter) - if you have an external amp it can be a great set-up, even if it is over ten years old.

- As far as spatialization and DSP for soundstage expansion, try some demo videos showing what various soundcards can do (you'll need your headphones on):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04yEtZJVpyY (as far as I know the Razer software here should work with your 2496 too; http://www.razerzone.com/surround)
A more dramatic example of a binaural recording:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUDTlvagjJA (this is a more theoretical exercise, as I understand it)

- WRT daughterboards on motherboards, I've had a few that offer that (it isn't new to Asus; it seems to come around every few years) and IME there isn't much (if any) improvement to be had. Some of them still have grounding noise and aren't great, others are fine. Wish it wasn't such a mixed bag, but it is. Ultimately onboard sound *can* be awesome, but there's also a lot of potential sources of issues (as ProtegeManiac explained), where a stand-alone soundcard (like the 2496) can generally side-step a lot of those problems, and then you can send that signal out to an amplifier. I would say the whole stand-alone thing is more consistent as opposed to more better; internal can, in theory, be just as good - but in reality it isn't always so.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kol12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

So does that mean external amplifiers are usually always better than motherboard sound chips and DACS?

 

At bare minimum, the best way to phrase it - and this refers more to the amplification capabilities - is that they will get much louder before you hear audible distortion. The problem with that however is that given an easy enough to drive headphone, that would mean that at safe listening levels, the sound would not likely be too different, and it's really up to you if you'd want to spend extra for small improvements playing at safe, long session volumes while having very clean output for at least a few songs that make you want to crank it up. As someone who has used hifi gear for years I'd do so just for the convenience of having a volume knob instead of scrolling over/touching the corner to access Windows volume control, or using hotkeys. 

 

I'm basically the type of guy who would buy an Astel&Kern portable player just for the convenience of a volume knob, the closest to it being the iPod wheel (and I hate how iTunes works over drag and drop) or strapping an amp with a volume knob onto a player (which is highly impractical by my standards/preferences). Except I haven't yet because $600++ isn't exactly cheap; of course if I didn't have to give up steak to save up for it I'd likely be walking around with one right now - I'm not going to be praising the SQ to high heavens but as long as that knob doesn't move around too easily in my pocket I'd consider that money well spent 

 

In any case I'd still say it's a lot better to spend on a really good amplifier (not necessarily one of those huge amps) just to give you a lot more clean power when you do crank it up. Just be careful because with my Meier Cantate I was using audible distortion or noise to guess how dangerously loud it is, but didn't realize until I set my headphones down without touching the volume control (or pause button) that it was loud enough to use my HD600 as tabletop omni speakers.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kol12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Asus doesn't seem to give any specs on the amplifier itself although it does have the Dedicated audio PCB layers you talked about. I don't fully understand what this means though. Can you explain further?

 

Basically think of that tunnel/floodway in Kuala Lumpur. It normally serves as a freeway through the city, so think of the cars moving down there as the audio signal, with the traffic on the surface streets ("side" streets if you're referring to US streets vs elevated freeways) as the other electrical signals moving around. Separating the audio path not just laterally but also vertically creates more isolation. And in the case of Gigabyte putting the Left and Right channel on separate PCB layers, again look into the KL tunnel. Instead of two roads going in opposite directions running parallel on the same level, it normally runs with one direction on one level and the other on the lower level, and in such a case think of oncoming headlights as crosstalk, which wouldn't be a problem then (at least not until they have to flood the lower level; and worse, when they flood the whole thing during a monsoon downpour).

 

As for the Asus gaming board like the Maximus VIII Impact I posted it's not simply about noise isolation and channel separation but because there really isn't that much space on that board, what with the beefy power components and the cooling bits on these and the Z-series chipset. AFAIK the real advantage Asus has over competitor gaming boards worth a chunk less is that they are more stable and in some cases get a higher overclock, with ASRock not far behind according to a few reviews. ASRock however totally ditched the DSP chip handling among other things virtual surround processing, while Asus just crammed the soundard into essentially a tiny soundcard with its own slot, the trade off being it might get in the way of tower air coolers or their fan cables.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kol12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

I'm not sure what your talking about here with USB audio.. I'm still unsure of what DAC's get used if you are plugging in a amplifier with built in DAC's to your motherboard line out or even my M-Audio 2496 which has it's own DAC's.

 

 

What I was saying above was regarding the DSP, or Digital Sound Processor, which initially came up in my first post here since I have to clarify that in case you wanted to play games using primarily Dolby Headphone or any similar virtual surround simulator, hardware DSP cannot work with USB as they pass on the digital signal either to the SPDIF output or to the DAC on the same circuit board (be it an internal or external soundcard, or built into the mobo itself). Since you are not interested in such DSP features then set this aside if at least for now.

 

Now, regarding the DAC specifically, if you use the line out on the mobo then you are using the mobo's DAC; if you use the soundcard's lineout then you are using the soundcard's DAC; if you hook up a DAC+amplifier unit via digital (USB, optical, coax, etc) then you are using the DAC in the DAC+amplifier unit. DAC means Digital to Analogue Converter, so when it comes out of the DAC, whichever one it is, it's analogue and must go into an amp circuit.
 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kol12 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

If I use the M-Audio 2496 soundcard it will most definitely need an amplifier as it has no headphone output! The question still remains if whether I will benefit from an amplifier. 

 

Well think of it in mathematical terms - no amp as zero and amp as >0. So having an amp if you want to use the 2496, any amp at all, will always be an improvement...or actually, it's a requirement.

 

Now as for whether the 2496+any amp will be better than the mobo, go back to what I've posted previously. First is about the amps - comparing the mobo amplification to an external amp wthout taking the 2496 into consideration basically just means inveting on a really good amp will mean you can go up to unsafe hearing levels with a lot less distortion. It's all up to you if you either want to get permanent hearing damage just to make the most of it, or whether a really good amp will be worth the money even if you won't be listening to a very loud but very clean output all the time.

 

Now regarding the smaller differences in DAC circuit outputs by taking the 2496 into account vs the mobo's DAC, again the difference will be minimal and really in any scenario barring any of us here having the exact same gear so we can take measurements it's really hard to quantify how much better it will be, and even then it might be beyond audible range or at least manageable if you put in the correct settings. The reality is that it is highly subjective and relative - some can't hear the difference, some can, some are more willing to spend money and thus more willing to think what they hear is worth the expense while some are less inclined to spend, others don't actually hear a difference if hit with a blind and level-matched test. The best we can do really is tell you that there can be some gains but not in all cases, but we can't assess your own perception of value.

 

[Kol12]

  Now, regarding the DAC specifically, if you use the line out on the mobo then you are using the mobo's DAC; if you use the soundcard's lineout then you are using the soundcard's DAC; if you hook up a DAC+amplifier unit via digital (USB, optical, coax, etc) then you are using the DAC in the DAC+amplifier unit. DAC means Digital to Analogue Converter, so when it comes out of the DAC, whichever one it is, it's analogue and must go into an amp circuit.

 
Ok, I have heard some talk that amplifiers with built in DAC's are better than mobo DAC's.. Should have no problem with USB and optical outputs on the mobo. 
 
So basically if the output is digital the external amplifiers DAC will be used?  Is SPDIF a digital output?

 

[Kol12]

 

At bare minimum, the best way to phrase it - and this refers more to the amplification capabilities - is that 

they will get much louder before you hear audible distortion

. The problem with that however is that given an easy enough to drive headphone, that would mean that at safe listening levels, the sound would not likely be too different, and it's really up to you if you'd want to spend extra for small improvements playing at safe, long session volumes while having very clean output for at least a few songs that make you want to crank it up. 

 
I guess I was wondering whether an external amplifier would bring better sound characteristics than the Realtek chip rather than more volume. Does cleaner power not result in better sounding audio?
 

Now as for whether the 2496+any amp will be better than the mobo, go back to what I've posted previously. First is about the amps - comparing the mobo amplification to an external amp without taking the 2496 into consideration basically just means inveting on a really good amp will mean you can go up to unsafe hearing levels with a lot less distortion.

 
"

comparing the mobo amplification to an external amp without taking the 2496 into consideration" What do you mean by without taking the 2496 into consideration?
 

I don't really want to go to unsafe hearing levels, does anyone?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Ok, I have heard some talk that amplifiers with built in DAC's are better than mobo DAC's.. Should have no problem with USB and optical outputs on the mobo. 

 
Mostly because of the analogue circuit after the DAC chip.
 

 
So basically if the output is digital the external amplifiers DAC will be used?

 
DAC - Digital to Analogue Converter. If you output digital from the mobo then its own DAC isn't being used since it comes out of that as an analogue signal, but you're outputting digital.
 

 
Is SPDIF a digital output?

 
SPDIF - Sony/Philips Digital Interface Format

 

[Kol12]

Just wanted to say that after some more listening with the Takstar's into the mobo I think they're sounding really good. Without knowing the exact specs of the mobo integrated amplifier it's hard to say how much improvement an external would make. Hopefully I'll find out those specs which will help with a comparison. 

 

[DangerClose]

 
The Z97-A apparently has an amplifier but I can't find any specs. The Takstar's are 60 ohm. The sound stage on the takstar's doesn't seem to big. Can an external amp change that?

 
I just saw this thread.  Lots of words.  

  I skimmed for DAC info in it after seeing you say you have an ALC892.  
 
Because I have ALC892, and even the low-end Xonar DG card is an improvement due to the DAC.  Lack of amplification isn't the problem I am referring to.  The DAC simply sounds worse.  Soundstage size may have been part of that, but I don't recall.  ALC892 is "pretty good" but not as good.  There could be other factors involved such as other components on the motherboard, but I think most people would say similar about the ALC892.   
 
For another data point, I only did a quick comparison, but I didn't hear any improvement with the Takstar when it's given more power than the 100 or so mw the DG does.  I didn't do any A-B'ing with less power than that.  Not any that I can recall anyway.

 

[Kol12]

Thanks for your reply Danger, you've pretty much confirmed the answer I was looking for and that is that there are superior DAC's to the ALC892 that affect sound quality right?
 
This is why I am interested in a desktop amplifier with built in dac and am looking for some recommendations..
I would also consider using my M-Audio 2496 sound card connected to an amp but I'm unsure of what type of amplifier would be suitable for this as it would need to be just a straight amplifier with no built in DAC otherwise the 2496 would be pointless right?
 
Do you have Takstar Pro 80's? What do you think of them? I'm quite liking them so far.. Would you have any idea what the Asus Z97-A on-board amplifier specs are? Maybe something like the Xonar DG or an external amplifier would have more power output than my boards amp which would translate to clearer/better sounding audio?

 

[DangerClose]

  Thanks for your reply Danger, you've pretty much confirmed the answer I was looking for and that is that there are superior DAC's to the ALC892 that affect sound quality right?
 
This is why I am interested in a desktop amplifier with built in dac and am looking for some recommendations..
 
Do you have Takstar Pro 80's? What do you think of them? I'm quite liking them so far.. Would you have any idea what the Asus Z97-A on-board amplifier specs are? Maybe something like the Xonar DG or an external amplifier would have more power output than my boards amp which would translate to clearer/better sounding audio?

 
Absolutely there are better DACs than ALC892.  I don't think the $$$ Summit-Fi people around here buy $1000 DACs for no reason.

  The more important question is how much better is one DAC than another, and at what cost.  One that costs twice as much isn't twice as good.  <-- I was about to edit that before someone chimes in to disagree, but it's just a general comment. lol.
 
I've seen blind tests with non-audiophile people consistently preferring the DAC on the Xonar DG over ALC892.  The 892 is surprisingly good compared to what used to come on most mobos, but there is room for improvement.  For a while, I was trying to convince myself I didn't need a different DAC, but after A-B'ing them, I knew I wouldn't be happy if I kept using the 892.  
 
And along with that, to go along with your desktop amp quest, the DAC in my Monoprice Desktop Amp is better than my DG's DAC.  It's a lot smaller difference than between the DG and my ALC892 though and probably wouldn't be a noticeable difference to a lot of people unless they are directly A-B'ing them.  Some people might even prefer the DG's DAC since it's a little more "fun," such as it makes the upper mids for vocals stand out a little more.  It's like if someone prefers a headphone with a V-shape sound signature.  It may be "wrong," but they may prefer it.
 
I have Pro 80, and they are very good.  The stock pads are too small for me, the soundstage size isn't impressive, and it feels heavier to me than it is, but those are minor criticisms since it does a lot of things right.
 
No idea about your mobo amp specs. I think some Z97 boards have a "600 ohm" amp on them, but it looks like not the A model.  I would expect the Pro 80 to already sound good on there.  An amp maybe probably would help them at least a little, but who can say for sure without trying it.  If you want to test that theory out for low cost, grab a DG when it's on sale.  It's a very good value, particularly since it has a halfway decent amp on it.  I can even run heavy stuff like the AKG 701 off of it, though it's still underpowered when doing so.  
 
I almost forgot you said you have the M-Audio card.  Have you tried that and A-B'd it with the onboard DAC?  

 

[Kol12]

I have a smallish head I suppose and I find that I usually click the phones right up to no clicks. They are quite heavy as well but I still find them pretty comfortable. 
 
Can the soundstage with them be improved with a different amp? 
 
I don't think the Z97-A is 600ohm and there's no info around on what the specs for that board are which is kind of annoying. If it was only 30ohm would that not be driving the Takstar's to full potential sound quality or volume wise? The Takstar's are 60ohm.
 
I would need a external amplifier to use the M-Audio 2496, I used to run it through a multitrack recorder that is now broken. I'm unsure what sort of amplifier would be suitable for the card, one without built in DAC's I suppose as the 2496 already has them and are apparently pretty good. Are there any desktop/headphone amps around without built in DAC's?