Head-fi Philosophy; or Adding Honesty and Objectivity to the Forum

[Thelonious Monk]

gpalmer it really does seem like you got defensive and called him out. do i have reading comprehension problems too?

 

[Superpredator]

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Originally Posted by Thelonious Monk /img/forum/go_quote.gif gpalmer it really does seem like you got defensive and called him out. do i have reading comprehension problems too?

x2

 

[gpalmer]

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Originally Posted by Superpredator /img/forum/go_quote.gif x2

Hmmm, I'm far too uncaring to be defensive or call him out as a matter of fact. Let's examine the post.

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Originally Posted by gpalmer /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yup, it's over there stage left... Not to be mean and to in any way attack you or disparage your thoughts but Head-Fi is what it is because the majority of people want it that way. Some things are great, some things are OK and some I disagree with but if it doesn't work for you there's always Hydrogen Audio...

He complains about how much he dislikes certain things. I wouldn't tell anyone to stick with a forum they don't like any more than I'd tell jjcha to stick with a headphone he doesn't like. It's unreasonable and rather pointless to put up a post and expect 54,000 other members to change their ways to accomodate you, at least as senseless as it would be for jjcha to expect the HE-90's to change to accomodate his tastes. Equally unlikely is that you have thought of a new idea 54000 other members haven't already had. Some of his suggestions such as the double blind test are not allowed for good reason, we went down that road and it wasn't a good time for anyone. A constant stream of bickering back and forth that ruined many threads. Probably made the post proceeding this too strong in it's phrasing but I was rushed and it wasn't meant to be taken seriously, which is denoted by the smiley.

I put in a clarification there "Not to be mean and to in any way attack you or disparage your thoughts" to make sure that he didn't take it as a slight about his thoughts. I honestly mean that, those are fine feelings to have, just as wanting lots of bass from a headphone is a fine taste to have. As with everyone else around here, he's free to have whatever thoughts he'd like. As I explained to him, the majority of people want it to be that way. I even suggested Hydrogen Audio might be more to his tastes than Head-Fi since they would lovingly embrace his wish for doube blind.

In response, I got this:

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Originally Posted by SeaCard Ah, didn't realize that I wasn't allowed to make suggestions that I thought would make this a better place.

Care to point out where I suggested he wasn't allowed to do anything? I have exactly zero ability to make that call. It's as futile as jjcha expecting the HE-90's to sound like an enhanced set of 010, but hey, I don't care if he believes hard enough maybe they will change.

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Originally Posted by SeaCard But if you believe head-fi would be a better place without me (or other members who provide ideas for potential improvements), then so be it.

Where did I suggest Head-Fi would be a better place without him? I told him he might want to consider other options, just like I told jjcha in his thread he might want to consider other options. I couldn't care less one way or the other what he does...

 

[Superpredator]

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Originally Posted by gpalmer /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hmmm, I'm far too uncaring to be defensive or call him out as a matter of fact. Let's examine the post.

Sorry, those weren't my words, I was just x2ing because I agreed in spirit.

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Originally Posted by gpalmer /img/forum/go_quote.gif Bye, don't let the door hit ya on the way out...

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Originally Posted by gpalmer /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yup, it's over there stage left... Not to be mean and to in any way attack you or disparage your thoughts but Head-Fi is what it is because the majority of people want it that way. Some things are great, some things are OK and some I disagree with but if it doesn't work for you there's always Hydrogen Audio...

These simply strike me as some rude things to say to a member who, IMO, was attempting to criticize constructively. I guess that's your right, but it's comments like these that help derail threads where the balance between constructive dialog and all out flamethrower battles is tenuous to begin with.

 

[gpalmer]

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Originally Posted by Superpredator /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry, those weren't my words, I was just x2ing because I agreed in spirit.

Understood.

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Originally Posted by Superpredator /img/forum/go_quote.gif These simply strike me as some rude things to say to a member who, IMO, was attempting to criticize constructively. I guess that's your right, but it's comments like these that help derail threads where the balance between constructive dialog and all out flamethrower battles is tenuous to begin with.

If you don't have a sense of humor, the ignore option for me is a good plan!

 

[Superpredator]

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Originally Posted by gpalmer /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you don't have a sense of humor, the ignore option for me is a good plan!

I should have noted the evil smiley.

Humor doesn't always come across in the world of electronic communication.

 

[gpalmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superpredator /img/forum/go_quote.gif I should have noted the evil smiley. Humor doesn't always come across in the world of electronic communication.

And quite honestly I normally would have made more of an effort to make sure it was very clear that it was a joke but I'm under the weather today and it was a drive by post.

 

[Thelonious Monk]

you were very convincing.

 

[Mrvile]

Heh, threads like this one always turn into a mess. Remember the long Patrick thread that ended up with him posting his philisophical beliefs? That was a pretty brutal thread.

 

[Superpredator]

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Originally Posted by Mrvile /img/forum/go_quote.gif Heh, threads like this one always turn into a mess. Remember the long Patrick thread that ended up with him posting his philisophical beliefs? That was a pretty brutal thread.

Yeah, this thread was ridden into the ground, and hard.

 

[mrdelayer]

I'm too lazy to read this entire thread, but on the subject of DBT... I don't think the discussion of the use of DBT should be forbidden (i.e., "I had my friend switch out cables for me while I wasn't looking to help me decide which I liked best, or something), as it's just an expression of how one particular user came to his or her opinion about a cable or whatever; just the discussion of the effectiveness of DBT should be banned. Maybe this has been said in another post. If it is, please excuse my redundancy.

 

[Manny Calavera]

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Originally Posted by seacard /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm spending less and less time on head-fi these days, and I was trying to figure out why that is (since I don't love music any less). Obviously part of the reason is that after finding the sound that you like, this place is a bit less exciting. But there are two things that really bug me about this place that have pretty much led me to abandon it, and I am curious as to why these issues exist here. (1) The "can't say anything bad about a manufacturer" rule [edit: I am in no way suggesting that this is an official head-fi rule or is somehow imposed by the moderators]. There is nothing more frustrating to me than people who buy a product, post incredibly positive reviews of it, beautiful pictures, call it the greatest thing ever, and then, a month later sell it. Sure, initial reactions may be wrong, so let's accept that. But then, months and months later, they post that the product was defective, that the left and right channels were switched, that something wasn't working, that it was scratched, etc. Why is it so improper to criticize a manufacturer just because they are a small company? I don't want to pick on any posters or manufacturers, so I'm going to leave it at that. In any event, I've come to the point where I don't take anything away from a review, so there's really no point in reading them. (2) But much more important, the "no blind testing" rule. This may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. Maybe I'm more demanding than others, but the idea of spending even a dollar when it cannot be shown that the more expensive item is better is unacceptable. But we are talking hundreds, or thousands of dollars on amps and cables. This should not only be allowed, but I believe blind testing should constitute most of the discussion here. Blind testing should be the point of mini-meets: 10 people get together and take turns trying to identify which amp they are listening to, which cable, whether they are listening to a balanced set-up. I want to see the results of these meets (e.g. 8/10 people were able to identify and MPX3 in comparison to HeadRoom Desktop). This is meaningful information. When I buy a new product, I always do blind tests to see if I like it better. I have often times liked a $300 amp over a $5000 amp. I have not once been able to tell apart a cheaper cable versus a very expensive one. But when people tell me that "this $3000 amp just blows away my old $500", what does that mean to me without a blind test (doesn't have to be double-blind, just blind). Obviously you can't do this well with headphones, but with amps, sources, and cables it's so easy. Until that day, head-fi is largely useless, especially for anyone who has studied basic psychology and understands the placebo effect, or anybody that has an advanced engineering degree. Is it just me, or do others feel this way? And if not everyone is satisfied with "Nordost Valhalla cables make my Grover cables sound like trash," or "I don't need a blind test to tell the difference because the difference is obvious to anyone that is not deaf," maybe we should push for a separate sub-forum where sound is analyzed objectively?

Its not just you,and I agree with 33% of what you are saying (Very LONG time lurker here,brand new member here as well)



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Originally Posted by jjhatfield /img/forum/go_quote.gif And not being able to criticize vendors is silly.

Is the above a real rule on the forums here ?!?!

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Originally Posted by granodemostasa /img/forum/go_quote.gif 1. the tendency to not say something bad about a product that one buys doesn't at all have to do with some written or unwritten rule about manufacturers. it Has to do with the re-sale value of the product that the reviewer plans to sell. I'll admit that the original dac search of one particular head-fier interested me the most and I really did try to learn much from him. The problem became fixed as time went on.... every product was a day and night improvement over the last and there was rarely a real comparison between the components being retroactively pitted against each other. I can only roll my eyes at the recent "omega I" selling for near the price of an HE90 only because one person said it was better than the orpheus.. and that comment alone pushed its price beyond anything justifiable. The price of the modded/unmodded Melos amplifiers has been inflated through this very method. It simply don't buy this **** where a raving review is posted one minute and a month later it is being sold beyond purchase price. 2. The trend that is particularly bothering me is the Joining the chorus crowd. For example, to become part of the tomahawk and Hornet crowd a new member might post a new thread (it happens almost daily) detailing their journey, how wonderful the new amp is and pictures showing it's amazing craftsmanship. That is participation in a community... but not a real audio review and should not be taken as factual information. This self-esteem creating mob does no one any good. 3. A friend recently complained that selling on Head-fi is the selling of personalities. No longer can we market a chip or a new circut design... no no, it's about looking good, being friendly and buying into the cult of personality. While i don't think it's gone that far, i will say that the Meier thread does point to some disturbing realities. Why wasn't the Meier porta corda even considered?...instead we went for the FOTM, the headphonia and never realized what was going on for months. 4. There may be members who are too powerful. sorry about this big guys, but (even if it's a worthy product), i do feel uncertain about stuff that is being promoted from one big personality and turns into a fad. the recent zhaolu thing may be the best example of this, for a while we had true zhaolu believers challenging wadias and esoterics on the forum, like street mobs going on TV and asking the US army for a fight. 5. There is somehow this strange belief that we can't measure cables and power cords. It is simply wrong...there are measurements and those measurements do tell us something. it is important that we look at these and find cable companies willing to 1) publish the specs of their products, and 2) tell us what is in them. 6. I have to admit, that threads like this tend to look like bullying of younger or less experienced members by the big guys. I have to apologize, I've done this before myself. I think this is why we've had some bans... this overt characterization by high-rollers of low-fi people as ipod touting, portable amp loving, iem crazed kids. We really should stop and remember we were once new members ourselves. 7. I have a fear of falling into the same traps. Nearly all my dac reviews are done in A/b style and I go on listening to them until i am certain i know all the differences between the two components. But even then, it's very difficult sometimes. I have a fear that the Zana Deux may be over rated as an amplifier. after carrying it around to several meets, no one i've shown it to has actually bought one. Further, the fact that it hasn't sold on FS can either be indicative of 1) it actually being that good, or 2) we don't want to destroy the image of it being that good. Why do i feel it's over rated? well, because it doesn't carry the weight and clarity of most high end SE amps. And i'll admit to being a ZD fanboy.... i cringe whenever i see a person buy one and put it on a less than stellar source, makes me fear a bad impression could be derived from it because of that. 8. Overspending on the forum is somewhat rampant. I get a little shocked (but not surprised) whenever I see 300$ interconnects and 250$ power cords going into 500$ amps. Cables really should only cost a fraction of what the components cost. I really do believe that cables can make a difference and maybe this is the reason why so many here don't. there is only so much performance that can be sucked out of small components. So yea,..I'm no fan of the 300$ ipod cable. 9. Headphones really have to be taken in their context. Getting a great headphone first might be a wonderful idea of one is starting a rig, but it feels bad telling a guy that the headphone he just spent 1000$ on needs more than a cmoy to get it's full potential, especially if he doesn't plan on getting another amp. So yea, we shouldn't post great reviews of single components without talking about the other things in the chain. 10. Environment matters, it really does. Nothing can make a person take a more laid back view about his or her system than when comparing it to others. This is why the New York and Berkeley crowds push each other so much. if i came into Cal talking smack about my VDA-2, i'd be quickly shut up by the other great dacs around me. On the other side of the coin, i do pay close attention to whether a person doing the rave review is isolated or not, because it affects his/her audio perspectives.

Above = Best,and most informative post I have read yet on the forums so far.

 

[EnOYiN]

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Originally Posted by Manny Calavera /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is the above a real rule on the forums here ?!?!

No, it was just to illustrate that a lot of people do not say anything bad about the headphone they just bought. Nothing else. This is not a rule. When keeping things reasonable you can say something bad about a vendor.

 

[mikeg]

Blind tests at meets would be impractical; i.e., there's always much too much noise. A great deal of the time that's spent by many (or perhaps most) meet attendees is by socializing. It's enjoyable, it stimulates and maintains enthusiasm for our hobby, and it therefore can't and should't be restricted. That's why having blind studies at meets isn't going to occur IMO. Also, the placebo effect should not be disparaged as contributing to, or even serving as the basis of, the pleasure that we gain from our hobby. If a person is convinced that his/her system sounds better when equipped with more expensive components and cables, and if this belief yields greater joy to this person, from the listening experience, and if the more expensive components can be afforded, then I think that it's money well spent.

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Originally Posted by seacard /img/forum/go_quote.gif But often times the product can be returned, or exchanged, yet people still would never criticize some of the favorite manufacturers here. If a EMM Labs CD Player came with scratches, or the buttons didn't match up, I am quite certain that this information would come out immediately. I've never seen a blind test at a meet. Also, just because somebody picks a $300 heaphone over a $3000 one does not disprove the placebo effect, as it can work in reverse ("I don't believe a cable can make a difference, so this $3000 one can't be better than this $300 one"). It has to be done blindly. And it's so easy to do.

 

[Wodgy]

Head-Fi actually has a pretty good balance of perspectives, I think. We're not as voodoo-obsessed as AudioCircle (and its worthless, crackpot inspiration, 6moons). Threads like "which sounds better, FLAC or WAV" die pretty quickly here. On the other hand, we're not obsessive or quasi-religious about "objectivism" either, like HydrogenAudio. I build amps, I understand DSP theory, I care about measurements and theory, but I still prefer tubes. I never would have even tried tubes if I had the quasi-religious fervor of a site like HydrogenAudio. So Head-Fi is a good mix. I don't see any problems, except perhaps manufacturer fanboyism, especially regarding electronics (headphones not so much). But it's nowhere near as bad here as AudioCircle or Audio Asylum. Overall, I think this is a very good place, and that's partly a credit to the moderators and the fair policies.