Head-fi Philosophy; or Adding Honesty and Objectivity to the Forum

Apr 18, 2007 at 6:16 PM Post #16 of 80
Quote:

Originally Posted by marvin /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If I did do that, I certainly wouldn't be outing myself.
rolleyes.gif



Hey, I was just responding to what you said. I should have added a smiley to make my intentions clear. I updated my post with your note.
 
Apr 18, 2007 at 6:29 PM Post #17 of 80
Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Superpredator, I'm not sure I follow your comment that "something may win out in a DBT ..." The purpose of a double-blind test is not to determine whether A is better than B, but merely to determine whether A is different from B. In the audio context, a DBT cannot be used to determine whether something is "better" than something else. However, DBT testing can be used to answer the threshold question of whether the person who is making the subjective comparison can actually hear a difference.


If this is all DBT would do for audio, I honestly don't think I would find it very helpful. I suppose I'm more of an intuitive thinker, but I can generally tell from subtle and non-subtle cues whether the reviewer is actually hearing a difference between components or not.

Edit: before someone else beats me to it, I realize this is flawed thinking. A reviewer might be highly capable of describing audio phenomena but still subject to the psychological perils of new/expensive equipment.

seacard mentioned something about 8 out of 10 people saying component A is better than component B being a meaningful result of blind testing (or something like that, forgive the paraphrase). This seems to be different from your take on the potential fruits of DBT.

If 8 out of 10 people described the sonic characteristics of component A closely and agreed it preferable to the sonic characteristics of component B, which they also describe closely, then I think we'd be moving into the territory of meaningfulness.
 
Apr 18, 2007 at 6:33 PM Post #18 of 80
I think its a vicious circle, since most people buy headphones in this fashion.

1 - decides they need or want a new pair of phones
2 - Go read up, research, forums, articles, reviews.
3 - look for best prices online
4 - order online.
5 - Received from the post.

At no point there is a direct personal contact of some testing done by the buyer, it is all done on an assumed bases by other people's opinions. So if every other person says its good, chances are said person will agree, i mean if anything he is facing against virtual peer pressure to agree. Back to the no testing thing, unlike speakers, which I always demo. I will book a few hours in a dealer's listening room, bring along my music and sit down with some reference setup and test different speakers. Changing only the speakers, at a system closest to my own one. At the end of the day i decide which one i like. Headphone purchase just doesn't work like that a lot of the time.
 
Apr 18, 2007 at 6:46 PM Post #19 of 80
I think one of the great things is once you've found the sound that you like you can stop reading the gear forums.

I generally search back to posts before I registered to get impressions from older members. I think in order to get a good grasp of different sounds you need to have heard a lot of different things (and not just in meet conditions) so I usually skip over threads made by new members (or fanboys).

And of course always try the equipment in your own home.
 
Apr 18, 2007 at 7:00 PM Post #20 of 80
There are only a few people you can trust on the forum regarding reviews. The recent increase in reviews by people who joined the same month as his post or a month prior are far too many. I've been thinking recently that we should really set new rules on the forums. There's plenty of "_______ Appreciation" threads and all of these new reviews should really be in one of those threads instead of overflooding the subsections with a new thread. Reviews should only become new threads if it's the first review of a product, or it's from a credible source. Don't get me wrong, there are some new members that have great ears, I'm sure of it. But there are far too many buying into the hype of a product and just reiterating what others have said about the same product. It's very misleading and uninformative.

I'm new relatively new to the forums and don't really write anything regarding gear, or at least I try not to. I let others who have better ears and listen more critically do so. I really only write about the gear when asked, and I do feel more people should do the same. Not many of us are qualified to make full reviews, so let those who are do it. =T
 
Apr 18, 2007 at 7:18 PM Post #21 of 80
Quote:

Originally Posted by laxx /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There are only a few people you can trust on the forum regarding reviews. The recent increase in reviews by people who joined the same month as his post or a month prior are far too many. I've been thinking recently that we should really set new rules on the forums. There's plenty of "_______ Appreciation" threads and all of these new reviews should really be in one of those threads instead of overflooding the subsections with a new thread. Reviews should only become new threads if it's the first review of a product, or it's from a credible source. Don't get me wrong, there are some new members that have great ears, I'm sure of it. But there are far too many buying into the hype of a product and just reiterating what others have said about the same product. It's very misleading and uninformative.

I'm new relatively new to the forums and don't really write anything regarding gear, or at least I try not to. I let others who have better ears and listen more critically do so. I really only write about the gear when asked, and I do feel more people should do the same. Not many of us are qualified to make full reviews, so let those who are do it. =T



I don't know, I've seen some pretty good reviews by members with less than 10 posts. The recent Ear Max Pro review for example. It wasn't the prettiest, but it was a very interesting review that conveyed a lot about a component that hasn't had much attention here in a while.

I don't think I've ever written a real review; I try to limit myself to impressions only, and even those are so poorly expressed I doubt anyone pays much attention to them. But I like to be able to spout when I need to.

Speaking of new members and their reviews, I think for my first post ever I told people here what I had read about the HD595 on Amazon and HeadRoom, as though I was cluing them in somehow. Pretty hilarious stuff.
 
Apr 18, 2007 at 7:22 PM Post #22 of 80
Quote:

Originally Posted by seacard /img/forum/go_quote.gif

(2) But much more important, the "no blind testing" rule. This may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. Maybe I'm more demanding than others, but the idea of spending even a dollar when it cannot be shown that the more expensive item is better is unacceptable. But we are talking hundreds, or thousands of dollars on amps and cables. This should not only be allowed, but I believe blind testing should constitute most of the discussion here. Blind testing should be the point of mini-meets: 10 people get together and take turns trying to identify which amp they are listening to, which cable, whether they are listening to a balanced set-up. I want to see the results of these meets (e.g. 8/10 people were able to identify and MPX3 in comparison to HeadRoom Desktop). This is meaningful information. When I buy a new product, I always do blind tests to see if I like it better. I have often times liked a $300 amp over a $5000 amp. I have not once been able to tell apart a cheaper cable versus a very expensive one. But when people tell me that "this $3000 amp just blows away my old $500", what does that mean to me without a blind test (doesn't have to be double-blind, just blind). Obviously you can't do this well with headphones, but with amps, sources, and cables it's so easy. Until that day, head-fi is largely useless, especially for anyone who has studied basic psychology and understands the placebo effect, or anybody that has an advanced engineering degree.

Is it just me, or do others feel this way? And if not everyone is satisfied with "Nordost Valhalla cables make my Grover cables sound like trash," or "I don't need a blind test to tell the difference because the difference is obvious to anyone that is not deaf," maybe we should push for a separate forum where sound is analyzed objectively?



Not true, discussion of DBT testing is allowed on head-fi so long as the original topic is related to blind testing. They made the rule to prevent thread crapping where the topic would be discussing how one cable sounds better than another, and all of a sudden someone rudely says "it's all in your imagination! DBT or death! placebo! waste of money!" But I'm pretty sure threads that are dedicated to blind testing are fine, since recently there have been several such threads. In one thread, we even definitively proved that WAV sounds different from 320kbps MP3 when over a dozen people scored at least 95% in a self-administered blind test.
 
Apr 18, 2007 at 7:27 PM Post #23 of 80
Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Not true, discussion of DBT testing is allowed on head-fi so long as the original topic is related to blind testing. They made the rule to prevent thread crapping where the topic would be discussing how one cable sounds better than another, and all of a sudden someone rudely says "it's all in your imagination! DBT or death! placebo! waste of money!"


I think that the rule that was recently expressed is that all discussion of double-blind testing of cables is prohibited in any forum.

Quote:

But I'm pretty sure threads that are dedicated to blind testing are fine, since recently there have been several such threads. In one thread, we even definitively proved that WAV sounds different from 320kbps MP3 when over a dozen people scored at least 95% in a self-administered blind test.


Woah. I must have missed that one.
 
Apr 18, 2007 at 7:54 PM Post #24 of 80
Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Woah. I must have missed that one.


You did too? Man, I think I started a thread like this a while ago and hardly anyone was able to tell the difference at all.

But let's not get in to that again shall we.
 
Apr 18, 2007 at 8:02 PM Post #25 of 80
1. the tendency to not say something bad about a product that one buys doesn't at all have to do with some written or unwritten rule about manufacturers. it Has to do with the re-sale value of the product that the reviewer plans to sell. I'll admit that the original dac search of one particular head-fier interested me the most and I really did try to learn much from him. The problem became fixed as time went on.... every product was a day and night improvement over the last and there was rarely a real comparison between the components being retroactively pitted against each other. I can only roll my eyes at the recent "omega I" selling for near the price of an HE90 only because one person said it was better than the orpheus.. and that comment alone pushed its price beyond anything justifiable. The price of the modded/unmodded Melos amplifiers has been inflated through this very method. It simply don't buy this **** where a raving review is posted one minute and a month later it is being sold beyond purchase price.

2. The trend that is particularly bothering me is the Joining the chorus crowd. For example, to become part of the tomahawk and Hornet crowd a new member might post a new thread (it happens almost daily) detailing their journey, how wonderful the new amp is and pictures showing it's amazing craftsmanship. That is participation in a community... but not a real audio review and should not be taken as factual information. This self-esteem creating mob does no one any good.

3. A friend recently complained that selling on Head-fi is the selling of personalities. No longer can we market a chip or a new circut design... no no, it's about looking good, being friendly and buying into the cult of personality. While i don't think it's gone that far, i will say that the Meier thread does point to some disturbing realities. Why wasn't the Meier porta corda even considered?...instead we went for the FOTM, the headphonia and never realized what was going on for months.

4. There may be members who are too powerful. sorry about this big guys, but (even if it's a worthy product), i do feel uncertain about stuff that is being promoted from one big personality and turns into a fad. the recent zhaolu thing may be the best example of this, for a while we had true zhaolu believers challenging wadias and esoterics on the forum, like street mobs going on TV and asking the US army for a fight.

5. There is somehow this strange belief that we can't measure cables and power cords. It is simply wrong...there are measurements and those measurements do tell us something. it is important that we look at these and find cable companies willing to 1) publish the specs of their products, and 2) tell us what is in them.

6. I have to admit, that threads like this tend to look like bullying of younger or less experienced members by the big guys. I have to apologize, I've done this before myself. I think this is why we've had some bans... this overt characterization by high-rollers of low-fi people as ipod touting, portable amp loving, iem crazed kids. We really should stop and remember we were once new members ourselves.

7. I have a fear of falling into the same traps. Nearly all my dac reviews are done in A/b style and I go on listening to them until i am certain i know all the differences between the two components. But even then, it's very difficult sometimes. I have a fear that the Zana Deux may be over rated as an amplifier. after carrying it around to several meets, no one i've shown it to has actually bought one. Further, the fact that it hasn't sold on FS can either be indicative of 1) it actually being that good, or 2) we don't want to destroy the image of it being that good. Why do i feel it's over rated? well, because it doesn't carry the weight and clarity of most high end SE amps. And i'll admit to being a ZD fanboy.... i cringe whenever i see a person buy one and put it on a less than stellar source, makes me fear a bad impression could be derived from it because of that.

8. Overspending on the forum is somewhat rampant. I get a little shocked (but not surprised) whenever I see 300$ interconnects and 250$ power cords going into 500$ amps. Cables really should only cost a fraction of what the components cost. I really do believe that cables can make a difference and maybe this is the reason why so many here don't. there is only so much performance that can be sucked out of small components. So yea,..I'm no fan of the 300$ ipod cable.

9. Headphones really have to be taken in their context. Getting a great headphone first might be a wonderful idea of one is starting a rig, but it feels bad telling a guy that the headphone he just spent 1000$ on needs more than a cmoy to get it's full potential, especially if he doesn't plan on getting another amp. So yea, we shouldn't post great reviews of single components without talking about the other things in the chain.

10. Environment matters, it really does. Nothing can make a person take a more laid back view about his or her system than when comparing it to others. This is why the New York and Berkeley crowds push each other so much. if i came into Cal talking smack about my VDA-2, i'd be quickly shut up by the other great dacs around me. On the other side of the coin, i do pay close attention to whether a person doing the rave review is isolated or not, because it affects his/her audio perspectives.
 
Apr 18, 2007 at 8:12 PM Post #26 of 80
Quote:

Originally Posted by Superpredator /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I don't know, I've seen some pretty good reviews by members with less than 10 posts. The recent Ear Max Pro review for example. It wasn't the prettiest, but it was a very interesting review that conveyed a lot about a component that hasn't had much attention here in a while.

I don't think I've ever written a real review; I try to limit myself to impressions only, and even those are so poorly expressed I doubt anyone pays much attention to them. But I like to be able to spout when I need to.

Speaking of new members and their reviews, I think for my first post ever I told people here what I had read about the HD595 on Amazon and HeadRoom, as though I was cluing them in somehow. Pretty hilarious stuff.



I pointed out that there are some good reviews, but there are far more plain jane reviews of products that have tons of reviews already and the review basically restates what's been said before. Those should just be appended to previous reviews and not be new threads.

There's way too many "OMG I just got my HD650's!" popping up each day expressing the same information. That's what I'm mainly getting at. Cleaning up the forums of repetitive threads. Actually, what bothers me most are all of the "Recommend me a headphone" threads.
frown.gif
 
Apr 18, 2007 at 8:16 PM Post #27 of 80
Quote:

Originally Posted by seacard /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'm spending less and less time on head-fi these days, and I was trying to figure out why that is (since I don't love music any less). Obviously part of the reason is that after finding the sound that you like, this place is a bit less exciting. But there are two things that really bug me about this place that have pretty much led me to abandon it, and I am curious as to why these issues exist here.

(1) The "can't say anything bad about a manufacturer" rule.



yeah... normally i keep it to myself because i don't want to get flamed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjhatfield /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Of course, there are a lot of newer members who stumble in here, bewildered, just looking for a <$100 set of headphones to replace their iBuds (read: me less then a year ago), and they get caught up in the excitement, the culture, the "sorry about your wallet", and they naturally want to be a part of the group. They get a few hundred posts under their belt, and suddenly think they know all about audio. Then these incredibly unqualified individuals write reviews. This is fine for me and others who recognize this, but not fine for the next newbie who stumbles upon this review.


i fall into this category too, except i already owned my grados before i joined. i just had a fever of wanting to improve the sound, like most people, and in the end i'm back with grado. i have never posted a topic with impressions because (a) it's impossible for me to describe my experience (b) i know i don't have enough experience yet. however i don't think that newer people like me and others shouldn't be allowed to give their opinion. i haven't updated my profile with my gear forever and probably haven't said what i've bought forever, either. this is because of the aforementioned reasons, and i don't want to be the target of threads like this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymondlin /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I think its a vicious circle, since most people buy headphones in this fashion.

1 - decides they need or want a new pair of phones
2 - Go read up, research, forums, articles, reviews.
3 - look for best prices online
4 - order online.
5 - Received from the post.

At no point there is a direct personal contact of some testing done by the buyer, it is all done on an assumed bases by other people's opinions. So if every other person says its good, chances are said person will agree, i mean if anything he is facing against virtual peer pressure to agree. Back to the no testing thing, unlike speakers, which I always demo. I will book a few hours in a dealer's listening room, bring along my music and sit down with some reference setup and test different speakers. Changing only the speakers, at a system closest to my own one. At the end of the day i decide which one i like. Headphone purchase just doesn't work like that a lot of the time.



yeah, it's sorta stupid for people to pull the "try before you buy!!!!!!!!!" card on headphone purchases. i'm lucky enough to have a nice dude who deals grados nearby so i don't have to worry about this, but with any other brand the only way try before you buy applies is if there's a return policy.



overall, i like headfi! i never would have thought past rs1 + ra1 + xfi soundcard if it weren't for this place. to be honest, odds are after you've got experience under your belt and gear too, the internet isn't all too useful to you for figuring out what to buy, based on objective stuff alone.

once you find people that you have similar tastes to, i don't think there's a problem with just buying something and hoping for the best. at worst you have to pay for return shipping, or lose a hundred bucks selling. while i'm sure it's a frowned upon practice, and probably not very logical, my "major" purchases so far have all been purely based on what people with similar music tastes and headphone tastes have said about the equipment. guess what? i like the outcome, more with the pieces that i've just read reviews on from random people then bought. please tell me if i'm just naive. i won't buy blindly like that with more expensive stuff, but i think with the small fish my strategy is fine.
 
Apr 18, 2007 at 8:46 PM Post #29 of 80
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thelonious Monk /img/forum/go_quote.gif
once you find people that you have similar tastes to, i don't think there's a problem with just buying something and hoping for the best. at worst you have to pay for return shipping, or lose a hundred bucks selling. while i'm sure it's a frowned upon practice, and probably not very logical, my "major" purchases so far have all been purely based on what people with similar music tastes and headphone tastes have said about the equipment. guess what? i like the outcome, more with the pieces that i've just read reviews on from random people then bought. please tell me if i'm just naive. i won't buy blindly like that with more expensive stuff, but i think with the small fish my strategy is fine.


I'm with you here. It's easy for someone with a great stereo shop nearby or in a prime geographical location to say try before you buy, but that isn't always possible for those of us in more random locations.

Of course mini-meets are always an option, but I work full time and goto school, and I'm not super keen spending my weekends driving long distances to go try out some gear, and in the process burning a hundred bucks in gas, or more on a plane ticket, when I could just buy the item at a good price, listen to it in my own home, on my own system, and maybe lose a hundred bucks selling it if its not to my taste.

I should point out that I have tried to write reviews, and have never been satisfied with the results. I'll still post impressions, though.

In the end, I rely on the opinions of others in making my purchasing decisions. That is why I came here in the first place, after all. I don't think there is anything HF or the HF admin/mod team can do to curb rampant fanboyism, but I do think it is important that conversations like these take place, so at least newer members might see this thread and be aware this type of thing takes place. Sometimes it is hard to hear the calm and educated voice of the wiser, more experienced old Head-Fi'er over the din of a hundred newbies.
tongue.gif


And when I say newbie, I include myself in that category! I enjoy the heck out of learning about all this audio stuff, though. Its a ton of fun.
smily_headphones1.gif
 
Apr 18, 2007 at 8:58 PM Post #30 of 80
More than a DBT forum, I would like to see something like "Review Pools."

If a new, eagerly awaited pair of headphones or piece of equipment is on the horizon, serious, interested members commit to purchase it upon release. Instead of initially posting the obligatory "I got this thing, build quality is superb, review to follow," each of the members of the pool listen and review in isolation from each other and from the rest of the board. Obviously, they agree not to read reviews or threads about the item until after their own reviews are finished. On an agreed upon date, all the reviews go up into one thread at one time. Then, everyone gets to see all the information at once, and hear different, simultaneous voices and perspectives that won't have influenced one another. It may not be free of new equipment-related bias, but it should be relatively free of peer influence-related bias. I saw something like this with that huge portable amp roundup, and I wish there was more like it posted. If the Edition 9 had been reviewed like this, that whole business might have been more interesting for me to follow.
 

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