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Originally Posted by feckn_eejit /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The Pacific Microsonics units used in mastering were of very high quality at the time.
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The PM Model 2 ("PM2") had (and has) some very fine A/D and D/A converters, which even today are still highly-regarded and hold up very well against more "modern" devices. That's one reason why used PM Model 2 units command such a premium (ie sometimes ~ USD 15K / unit) when they can even be found for sale....
Quote:
Originally Posted by feckn_eejit /img/forum/go_quote.gif
This is most of why HDCDs sound good, less to do with the HDCD process itself...
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will respectfully disagree with you on this. Yes the PM2 converters are excellent, but nothing requires that they must be used, many mastering engineers will use other superb A/Ds (including DSD or DXD and then perform highest-quality downsampling ie with weiss Saracon) and then perform HDCD encode processing using a PM2, or even simply use the PM2 only for dither when creating final 16/44.1 master.
intelligent use of the HDCD dynamics processing (all optional and very controllable: reversible soft peak limiting for extreme peaks, and slight compression for low-level signals) imho adds significant value. In good mastering use of HDCD, this can be undetectable even on systems that don't decode HDCD. Of course, if used to extreme, it can be discerned, but it's not an extreme compression curve. see the linked paper below for details.
even in the absence of dynamics processing (ie the mastering engineer uses no Peak Extend and no low-level compression during encode)....if you can't hear the results with regard to sonics from the baseline HDCD processing function -- dynamic (ie program-dependent) reconstruction filter switching... well, I guess you can't hear it, so no big deal for you.
The benefit appears however to be clear to many listeners regarding temporal issues (transients, smearing, timbre), spatial and ambience / decay perception (just listen to American Beauty as a remaster example, or especially titles from Reference Recordings), especially in direct comparison (find/buy a Reference Recordings "HDCD Sampler 2" CD which contains encoded / undecoded track comparisons)..
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Originally Posted by feckn_eejit /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I actually find HDCDs sound worse than normal CDs when not played back decoded properly...
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this statement gets bandied about quite a bit on internet fora... if that's your experience, so be it. any mastering process can be overused. but egregiously bad examples do not appear to be the norm.
if the HDCD dynamics processes are artfully applied, "decoded or not decoded" really should be a moot point (Jeff Norman, who does the Grateful Dead stuff, is a very good HDCD practitioner; and whatever you think of Hoffman, he uses HDCD encoding to elegant effect on the current Audio Fidelity remasters, subtle use of the Peak Extend especially). Any hardware not decoding properly... is defective (and there was an integrated circuit implementation years ago that had bugs, but these are essentially ancient now). Software is another story; see linked paper below again; the only known SW which purportedly does (or did, see the link) full HDCD decode was WMP9 and WMP10 (11 is not fully clear).
Quote:
Originally Posted by feckn_eejit /img/forum/go_quote.gif
first of all you are losing one bit of resolution to the HDCD encoding and we could go on from there
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sorry, but this is not correct. short explanation, see ie my post #13 here:
Does EAC correctly rip HDCD encoding? - SH Forums longer explanation, use the Wayback Machine to get a copy of the original Johnson/Pflaumer AES paper introducing HDCD. actually, a copy may still be linked thru caches at the Wikipedia page on HDCD (which BTW has significant incorrect info). [edit -- other good HDCD papers on specific topics can be trawled thu links in this thread, my post #45:
Audio Fidelity and HDCD - SH Forums ]
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Originally Posted by feckn_eejit /img/forum/go_quote.gif
dithering algorithms like Apogee's UV22HR and Sony's Super Bit Mapping mean everyone can enjoy the best 16/44.1 has to offer without shafting those of us without a proprietary decoding system...
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and PowR, and izotopes superb dither...again, HDCD
processing is a
set of optional functions: filters, dynamics processing, dither. some mastering engineers still swear by the dither capability in the PM2 box, and will use no PM2 HDCD functions other than that dither (which, BTW gives rise to the occasional "unlabeled" HDCD which people will say sounds no different that a non-HDCD -- "the HDCD indicator light goes on" but there's no peak extend, yadayada..... see this for a good explanation, scroll down to "About HDCD":
John Marks Records - Our Sound Samples - Technical Information )
Quote:
Originally Posted by feckn_eejit /img/forum/go_quote.gif
With a HDCD DAC, decoding HDCD (whether from CD or lossless rip) played from a computer is easy peasy as long as you can get bit-perfect output...
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exactly. unfortunately there aren't that many HDCD-compatible DACs (standalone units, that is). more below..
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Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif
you can rip the CD w/ EAC, and then decode the HDCD data to 24bit WAV w/ eac3to or hdcd.exe
or better, dbpoweramp can directly rip the CD to 24bit FLAC containing the HDCD data I think
I also find the HDCD tracks better than regular CDDA, but don't be fooled into comparing to the CDDA track on the HDCD disc....because it's not 16bit! more like 14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif
well apparently, they've used the top 2 bits to put "dithered" audio data to go 20bit...so the HDCD portion is indeed 20bit dithered, but the CDDA track is 14bit or so.
I've got the "in the court of king crimson" HDCD, the HDCD portion sounds fantastic! the voice reverbs sound better than 16bit IMHO, very natural...but they used the original 2" master tape to make that CD, so of course it sounds better than all the previous editions
but the CDDA portion is terrible, overly compressed and agressive...almost sounds like 12bit
all in all that HDCD is a major rip off for regular consumers, they have no way to decode the HDCD track and end up w/ sub-par CDDA
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@ leeperry 1: hdcd.exe does not perform full HDCD decoding, again see my linked post above, a/o the AES paper for more gorey details. again, only known public SW which purportedly does is WMP9 WMP 10 and (maybe) WMP11.
@leeperry 2: sorry, but the above representations wrt HDCD/CDDA/different tracks/14bit/2bits are based in misunderstandings of how HDCD processing is "encoded" on CD. there is no separate track; HDCD encoding simply inserts control data packets in the standard 16/44.1 CD audio datastream by "stealing" audio LSBs on average something like 2% of the time. and even then it acts like dither. again, see linked post / AES paper.
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Originally Posted by spinneresque /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Ok I am still digesting all of your helpful answers. For now: Ideally I would like to have converted files that are hard drive storable and moveable, NOT having to rely on the physical discs themselves.... [ snip ] Am I on the right track? And if anyone can name a budget-y DAC or AMP that would serve this purpose I would be very grateful....
Also, since HDCD.exe is lacking in its ability to fullly decode, is WMP the definitive and only choice for the software decoding?
And, are we sure the EMU doesn't have this ability? If not I'm looking for a hundred-dollarish answer. 
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ripped/stored files are perfectly useable and decode-able. for full decode functionality, you need a solution which is created under an HDCD license, or has been designed around the license requirements (rare), or has an exemption (more rare). for hardware, this means either:
- a DAC with built-in HDCD decoding (Berkeley Audio alpha... and maybe a few others commercially current; older ones such as those mentioned are certainly functional but are out of production. One that was quite good for its day and still well-considered in second-hand circles is an Adcom, forget if model is 600 or 700 that had HDCD decode, this, or maybe a used MSB DAC, is quite possibly cheapest "good" HDCD standalone DAC option);
- a receiver with included HDCD decoding (Harmon-Kardon, Rotel, and maybe others currently; I have no info allowing me to comment on their DAC performance);
- a standalone disc player which accepts external digital inputs (like Cambridge Audio 840) AND includes HDCD decoding (unlike Cambridge Audio) AND will HDCD-decode those external bitstreams from a server. The only unit I am aware of which *may* do all of this is Cary 306 SACD Pro (USD8000.00), but Cary is giving conflicting info as to whether it actually does so;
- a CD player which fully-decodes HDCD and outputs the decoded digital audio as 20/44.1 or 24/44.1 on HDMI; this signal can be accessed and redirected to a "regular" non-HDCD standalone DAC of your choice. several of the inexpensive Oppo players do this; search my posts here and on hoffman audio forum for info. You also need an HDMI accessory which splits out the digital audio stream, these are available (and you can also use them with PCM downsampled output of SACDs from HDMI on some older PS3 units); or
- a modded CD player which outputs the decoded digital audio streams from just before the internal DAC chip. several companies in the US, Europe and (IIRC) Asia manufacture interface boards and do modding. switch-box.com, another company in Switzerland, others...
Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif
while the GD did go thru pains to try to record their work in high quality, hdcd offers nothing of value for rock music.
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respectfully, disagree. as a fan of numerous artists who have had good remasters done with competent use of HDCD processing (Joni Mitchell, King Crimson, Grateful Dead....) -- disagree quite a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spinneresque /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I am always chasing after the GREATEST POSSIBLE GD SOUND....
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me too. simply stated, it'd budget-dependent.... but probably the best-sounding commercial option from HDCD CDs or ripped files is a Berkeley Design alpha DAC (USD5000.00). Or a used PM2 (USD10K - 15K). both pricey, but stunning results....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ham Sandwich /img/forum/go_quote.gif
[ re dBpoweramp ] Yes it can. It is what I use to make rips from HDCD. You have to enable the HDCD DSP add-in when you do the rip. It is not something it enables by default. You end up with a 24-bit file.
dBpoweramp is a Windows program. It is also not a free program (it's $24 or $36).
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dbPoweramp, IIRC, simply has a plugin which enables use of hdcd.exe. again, this is not full decode.
one final option: get a disc player with good HDCD decoding and reasonable DACs, and record the analog output thru whatever A/D or soundcard is affordable to you and makes you happy. Oppo 980H player at USD170 is a great bargain; new Oppo BDP83 (universal BluRay/DVD/SACD/DVD-a/CD/incl HDCD, USD500 or 600) sounds great, appears to be a steal and coming out commercially quite soon; and for maybe USD 600-70 you can find a used RME FireFace400 interface with non-shabby A/D, or several other less-expensive options... or you can spend 20K or whatever of mastering-quality converters....
and then you can also make hi-res backups of your SACD collection and mountains of GD tapes.....
hth
