[pcdubc]

I think your initial instincts were good with the 58X...I don't have a set but it seems like from the types of music you like they are a good place to start at least. I think it's pretty well accepted around here that they are a great deal in terms of price/performance ratio and they are a great entry into the audiophile arena....they will be an easy headphone to sell in the future...I mean, if you get them, use them for 6 months and get a good handle on what you like/don't like in a headphone and then turn around and sell them for $100 (which will probably take one day to get a buyer on headfi classifieds) and then move on to a headphone that better suits your needs, you paid less than $10 a month, learned a lot, enjoyed your music and moved on without too much pain. Or you might love them and simply want to buy an amp to get even more enjoyment from them, either way it's the least painful path as opposed to buying an amp, a dac and a set of headphones and hoping they suit you.
EDIT...as an alternative, you might want to look at the Beyerdynamic DT880 as well.

Thank you! I think that’s very wise. I think I might shop for a second hand HD 58X or HD 6XX on classifieds (whichever comes first), and take it from there.

It would be a great to start listening for the difference that amp makes, and then on top of that, a DAC. Going in steps seems like the right approach.

 

[Cruelhand Luke]

Thank you! I think that’s very wise. I think I might shop for a second hand HD 58X or HD 6XX on classifieds (whichever comes first), and take it from there.

It would be a great to start listening for the difference that amp makes, and then on top of that, a DAC. Going in steps seems like the right approach.

The classified are an awesome place to start...I wanted to try out Grados and happened to get an SR80e in new condition for half of what retail is, and eventually I converted it to SR325e specs and wound up at significantly less than half of what retail would have been. Just keep checking back in on the clasifieds section and you will find a good deal on something ( I think 58x are usually around $120-135 and 6xx are around $150- 175...don't quote me on that, but that's my impression)

 

[ProtegeManiac]

These are excellent points. I really don’t know what I like at the moment. I *think* I like clarity, balance (across registers)...

Balance is dependent on a lot of factors and the end result is a compromise.

So for example the HD600 has a relatively smooth response, but has a slight peak at 3500hz and around 8500hz or so, and rolls off at around 45hz or so. When the HD650 came out it didn't have the 3500hz peak, reached deeper before the response trails off, but then the 50hz (well above where it trails off) to 120hz range is much stronger than above 1000hz, so people start going off about it being "veiled." HD58X based on graphs is somewhere in the middle.

...depth (sound stage??)

Depth nor width aren't what these Sennheisers are good at, because again, compromises. You get a fairly flat and wide response, less risk of driver distortion due to higher impedance, and all strengths vs, say, the K701 (not so much with the wider K702 response), but the AKG still wins in width and depth of soundstage. On the upside, for something with a relatively small projected image, the positioning is mostly proportional, without the problem of some headphones that have the cymbals loud and rightsmack by your ears or your temples.

...and warmth.

Easier to bet on the HD6XX for that.

Based on these criteria, would you recommend a particular headphone? Need not be Sennheiser.

K702 for soundstage depth.

HD6XX, far second HD58X, followed closely by K702, for warmth.

For less finicky amp requirements there's the HE400S, which mostly only requires any decent amp with low impedance (by decent though I assume it gets around 128mW at least at 16ohms), but its response is somewhat closer to HD600 and K702. Although personally the real downside is after sales support from HiFiMan, unlike being able to get parts from Sennheiser, AKG, Beyerdynamic, Audeze, etc.

 

[i20bot]

I'd say go with the 58x and Liquid Spark. I liked that combo a little better than with the HD650.

 

[pcdubc]

Balance is dependent on a lot of factors and the end result is a compromise.

So for example the HD600 has a relatively smooth response, but has a slight peak at 3500hz and around 8500hz or so, and rolls off at around 45hz or so. When the HD650 came out it didn't have the 3500hz peak, reached deeper before the response trails off, but then the 50hz (well above where it trails off) to 120hz range is much stronger than above 1000hz, so people start going off about it being "veiled." HD58X based on graphs is somewhere in the middle.




Depth nor width aren't what these Sennheisers are good at, because again, compromises. You get a fairly flat and wide response, less risk of driver distortion due to higher impedance, and all strengths vs, say, the K701 (not so much with the wider K702 response), but the AKG still wins in width and depth of soundstage. On the upside, for something with a relatively small projected image, the positioning is mostly proportional, without the problem of some headphones that have the cymbals loud and rightsmack by your ears or your temples.




Easier to bet on the HD6XX for that.




K702 for soundstage depth.

HD6XX, far second HD58X, followed closely by K702, for warmth.

For less finicky amp requirements there's the HE400S, which mostly only requires any decent amp with low impedance (by decent though I assume it gets around 128mW at least at 16ohms), but its response is somewhat closer to HD600 and K702. Although personally the real downside is after sales support from HiFiMan, unlike being able to get parts from Sennheiser, AKG, Beyerdynamic, Audeze, etc.

This post is incredibly helpful. Thank you so much.

Regarding depth, if I understand you correctly, the difference between the AKG and the Senns will be more pronounced if the “image” is larger, aka a symphony vs a soloist?

I definitely see your point about compromises. It’s exactly these trade offs that I am trying to learn about from a technical stand point, and figure out which attributes I weight more heavily.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Regarding depth, if I understand you correctly, the difference between the AKG and the Senns will be more pronounced if the “image” is larger, aka a symphony vs a soloist?

Yes. Even on some other recordings, as long as they're properly recorded or at least of decent quality. I have symphonic an power metal tracks that sound best on the K70x, followed by a far second HDxx, and lastly Grado RSx.

Take tonal balance and I can understand if that flips around. Add being finicky about amps and the K702 has a tendency to be dead last. So when I picked up the HD600 and at the time I did not yet have my Meier amp, it made the best sense to get it then. I still have not had the jones to replace it though, not even with the new Focals (if at least to match what's in my car and will still be in any cars I get later on).

 

[pcdubc]

Yes. Even on some other recordings, as long as they're properly recorded or at least of decent quality. I have symphonic an power metal tracks that sound best on the K70x, followed by a far second HDxx, and lastly Grado RSx.

Take tonal balance and I can understand if that flips around. Add being finicky about amps and the K702 has a tendency to be dead last. So when I picked up the HD600 and at the time I did not yet have my Meier amp, it made the best sense to get it then. I still have not had the jones to replace it though, not even with the new Focals (if at least to match what's in my car and will still be in any cars I get later on).

Thanks again! Now I am looking at HD600. Can an argument be made for starting out with the most neutral pair of cans?

 

[Cruelhand Luke]

Maybe...it kind of depends...sound is so subjective, one persons 'too bright!' is another persons 'detailed!' ...
the only problem I can see with getting something neutral is it's harder to tell what is missing than it is to tell if something is too much.
Take bass for example? I have some headphones (Modhouse Argon) that have epic bass...with hip hop/edm they sound fantastic, but with some other types of music they sound overdone, too much bass...contrast that with some headphones I have that have really good bass, the Fidelio L2 (but not staggeringly good) when I listen to hip hop, they sound great, I really enjoy them...I only know that they are 'missing' a certain amount of bass because I have those Argon over there just throbbing with bass...
The same can be said with treble...you might get a set that is overly polite, or even rolled off in the treble and not realize there is some energy in the treble region you are missing out on. Conversely if you get some headphones that are too bright and treble hot for you, you KNOW it.
With a neutral headphone you might not realize you are missing out on something you want...
of course the opposite argument for a neutral headphone is, you figure out what you like about the headphones, and then narrow down: what is the thing you always find yourself wishing they had more of? "I really like them, but...."
You are in danger of getting into analysis paralysis though...so just troll the classifieds, when a good deal jumps out at you, go for it. It's not like these are knuckle tattoos! You can reverse this decision pretty easily, and it's not going to hurt that much if you don't make the perfect choice the first time out. Get an HD series Sennheiser (or 58x) or a Beyer DT880, (or a 7 series AKG, or HE4xx, or.....) and start the journey. Just avoid headphones that NEED an amp until you have an amp.There are some that sound good without one, but I would avoid most planars until you have an amp for example. (Monoprice M565 is a really good entry level planar that doesn't need an amp, so there are exceptions to the rule)
Either way, good luck!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Thanks again! Now I am looking at HD600. Can an argument be made for starting out with the most neutral pair of cans?

That still kind of depends on what you want. Even objectively that's a maybe since there are more ways of being "flattest" without a really objective way of measuring it. HE400i is practically flat from 1000hz down to 20hz, but then you get a dip and a slight rise above that, then another rise near 10,000hz. By contrast HD600 rolls off sooner, has an upper bass boost, has a 3500hz peak, but other than the bass range roll off it doesn't dip as far as the HE400i and it's easier to apply a cut to the 3500hz and 8500hz peaks.