[Mr. Morden]

So simply put, I've done a lot more research and I think I'm between these headphones. Upgrading from HD595s, I want more sub-bass and bass but also general improvements in soundstage and positioning. I like a neutral sound, but I would lean towards fun over being purely analytical. I'm going to use them for gaming quite a bit, but I want good quality for music as well. I've been looking at the gaming headphone guide plus the battle of the flagships guide, but the K712 is missing from the latter, and the X2s are missing from both so I'm at a loss.
 
I'm planning to buy a tube amp as well, not decided on which yet. Thinking about DarkVoice 336SE, Schiit Valhalla 1 or 2, Bottlehead Crack, Beezar Torpedo amp, or if I decide to be really spendy - Woo Audio WA6. I'd like to, if I can't at least decide which headphones from my list to go with, eliminate one of the options so I can just buy two of them to sample. Also, any thoughts about the combined headphones with the potential amp options? I also have AKG K340 electrostats, so something that can drive those nicely would be cool.

 

[Mr. Morden]

No one? I don't know of anywhere else where people would know more about headphones than here. I tried asking the guys at Headphone.com but they didn't really help that much. My best hope is to just eliminate one of the above headphones from consideration so I can just trial two of them. Amp advice would be nice, but no one ever seems willing to recommend anything (I guess most people just buy a cheap SS amp and not tubes??). Or am I just asking in the wrong place here?

 

[PurpleAngel]

Check out the AKG KXX at Massdrop.

 

[mikey1964]

Well, if you care for sub bass, you may have to leave out the HD600 which is quite neutral from what I've gathered, the HD650 is supposed to have better bass than the HD600. I've heard the K712 has a sort of K702 Anni sound, or vice versa, with punchy bass.....but may require an amp to shine. I'm gonna get a Fidelio X1 instead of the X2 because I want one of my cans to have better bass and the X1 is supposed to be somewhat bass heavier than the X2 (according to Tyll). You may also consider a used HE400 since they're known to have more bass impact. I have the HE400i and I'm contented with its bass, much like I'm contented with the bass on my DT990/600.

 

[Mr. Morden]

Ok, so if I'm going to do K712 vs X2s what kind of tube amps can/should I use with them? Are any of the ones from my OP highly recommended with either? I feel like the kind of tube amps that might drive them well might not do so good for my AKG K340s due to their higher power demands. I'm going to buy the tube amp first and then use it with my existing headphones (AKG K340, HD595, and ATH-M50s - primarily the first two though.) to get a feel for the sound before buying the headphones. Although depending on the headphone amp, I guess I could buy it and try at the same time? Rules out the DIY options though.
 
EDIT: So I think I see it here now after reading the Inner Fidelity review of the X2s (Yes, I read with quite a grain of salt). So the X2s are great if you're not using a tube OTL amp, but the HD600s might actually take the lead if using a tube OTL? I mean, it makes it sound like the X2s are what I should buy...but I kind of want the tube OTL almost more than the headphones, so by that I think that means this should be between the K712s and the HD600s? Or maybe one of the Hifiman orthos or Beyer DT880 600 ohms?

 

[Youth]

Is there a reason why you absolutely want tube instead of solid state amp?

 

[Mr. Morden]

I've been told tubes have this great wonderful sound that's different from solid state, so I'm very interested to hear it for myself. I have had countless numbers of solid state amps on various speaker systems, currently I'm using a Threshold Stasis amp and a large ATI amplifier for the surround channels. They're lovely in their build, but honestly I'm not sure they sound much different. I say that, and yet I tried to just use the ATI for the mains instead of the Threshold and swear I heard better bass through the Threshold...so maybe it is there and I'm just bad at hearing the subtleties. I've had Adcom, NAD, Harman Kardon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony ES, Denon, US made Sherwood, HH Scott, Marantz and probably more that I'm forgetting and all sounded good. So to me, I'm completely solid stated out. If I go that route, I'll probably just go with whatever looks the nicest, isn't made in China, and doesn't cost a fortune (Actually TBH, I might not even buy any amp and might just use my sound card directly). The only tube amplifier I own is a Sansui Model 1000A receiver and it needs to be completely recapped. I received it with a blown fuse, never replaced it or tried to power it up as I assume that's what's wrong. But that process is going to be involved since I'll do it myself, and headphones seem more intimately able to reveal differences.
 
Just curious if tubes can respark the magic in the audiophile stuff, I've been rather disheartened by how much stuff sounds the same lately. Speakers and headphones seem the most critical factor, people say amps make all this difference but I haven't heard it yet. Maybe I just haven't found the right one? Hope that makes sense why I'm so adamant about tubes in this case. I have nothing against solid state at all, just curious if there's really a different kind of sound out there and what it's like.

 

[Youth]

Well tubes color the sound so if you're looking to get a different sound that what meant for the headphones then that's the way to go I guess. That being said, the biggest difference in sound comes down to the headphones. My personal opinion is that if you don't like how your headphones sound you should get another pair. 

 

[Mr. Morden]

I don't mind that, so maybe mixing the tubes with headphones that have more treble than I'd care for? That was the original thought to go with the K712 Pros, but then I started reading about the others and became less certain. Really don't want to just throw a dart on some random headphones to see if they're good. I don't dislike my HD595s, they do many things well I just would like a bit better but am not sure the HD600 is necessarily the right upgrade to follow.

 

[HPiper]

Given what you are wanting I'd go with either a pair of HD650's or HD700's (if they are within your budget and consider getting a used pair) combined with a Valhalla 2 amp. If you need a dac (which you didn't say) add a Modi 2 to the mix. The HD700 has excellent soundstage and imaging and real good bass but not super bass. If bass is super important to you and you like lots and lots of it let me know and I have some suggestions there too but generally when you get into the more bass heavy phones you are going to loose a lot of your soundstage and imaging.

 

[Mr. Morden]

I don't want lots and lots of bass, just good solid accurate bass. The HD595s are lacking in this area, and I'm not sure what cans have good sub bass that are still accurate. I made a comparison chart on the HeadRoom generator and it's interesting how the response curves of the Denon D5000, AKG K712 Pro, DT880 600 Ohm, and HD650s are to each other. The HD650s are definitely the lowest on the bass response, but I can see the highs are definitely lower than the others. How does the HD700 compare to the HD650s? There's no chart there and I'm not sure what the thought is for those, honestly the HD600 and 650s are always the ones raved about - but mostly the 600. I'm curious why if the HD600 is so middling in its performance people just constantly recommend it so much. Is it because it's so close to neutral without being as clinical/analytical as the AKGs and so is actually more fun to listen to? I definitely want a moderately neutral sound, but this is where I fear the HD650 might make things overly warm especially with tubes. It might sound good, but how accurate is it? I like the X2's approach of "if it sounds good, do it even if it's not the perfect flat response" but the X2s clearly are not going to work with tubes. I don't even know how much some people might diss the HD650s as they do the HD800s because they feel like they're overblown or something?
 
Edit: After reading this, I think the HD700 doesn't quite sound like my cup of tea. The HD800s might, but the price is far too much for me. This line particularly, it seems a little too colored for my taste.
 
Quote:

 People who have grown to appreciate neutrality, naturalness, smoothness, and evenness of frequency response should stay away from this headphone.

 
Is there truly a neutral open headphone with good sub bass? I guess I'm asking the impossible at the $500 +/- range, it probably exists at a higher price or something close to it exists. Anyone know what potential trade offs I could make in that range to still maintain a pretty neutral (possibly warm leaning) headphone that has good imaging with a solid low end that responds well to tubes? The Hifiman HE-400s keep coming up, they look rather interesting and are at a reasonable enough price point. The HE-500s also look really nice, a bit pricey though but I'd maybe swing it. But being orthos I have literally no idea what to expect. I've never heard any, so no idea what their sound is like first hand. What kind of tube amps can drive orthos well?

 

[Kamakahah]

Finding an open can that does sub bass well without a tradeoff somewhere else in the FR spectrum is hard at any price range.

Are you dead set on open headphones? Have you tried a closed planar?

Anyway, the k712 or K7XX are an upgrade to the HD598 in just about every way,imo. Not sure to such a drastic point that it will revive your interest.
That's why I mention a closed planar like something from LFF, Mr.Speakers, etc. They can have some magical sub bass without giving up too much stage. Great immersion for games and movies. I find details are even better at times as regular ambient noise is significantly reduced.

The K7XX is a fantastic value at $200. If you want to pair it with a nice tube amp, I'd recommend the Project Ember. It offers more features than the majority of amps above its price point at a great value while at least matching them for SQ. The trade off being that it doesn't have a fancy (expensive) housing.
Obviously tube selection is going to greatly affect your experience, so take your time in finding adequate tubes for your preferences.

My main piece of advice would be to find out when the next headfi meet is in your area and see if anyone can bring stuff you want. Nothing can substitute for hearing it in advance, even during meet atmosphere. In the end, not one else will be able to help you decide what you want over your own ears.

 

[Mr. Morden]

What tradeoffs do the HE-400 and HE-500 make in this regard? I'm starting to lean towards them quite a bit. I'm actually almost considering just going with a solid state amp and getting something like the HE-500s or something. I'm not opposed to closed headphones other than I've never heard them to have as much openness as an open headphone. Honestly the HE-400s are seeming like what I'm leaning toward quite a bit at the moment.
 
I hear people praise the K7XX so much, but how does it compare to the K712? I thought the K7XX was closer to the K702 which I am fairly certain is not for me. I'm not opposed to a good deal on sound quality, but at $200 I feel like it's not likely to be as much of an upgrade from the HD595s. Anything up to $500-600 is not really an issue for me.
 
As far as a meet goes, the closest ones that I'm aware of are in Chicago or New York, no where near me. And to be brutally honest, I'm not a fan of other audiophile meet ups. Too much boasting about their own gear (These $500 cables just brought my system to life, etc.), one-upping each other, and general asshattery along those lines. I can't claim to know how any of these meets are so it's no attack on anyone here, but based on past experience and just chatting with other audiophiles, I'll pass. I'd rather buy a bunch of headphones and return the ones I don't like, it'll be cheaper and less stress for me (And bonus to hear it how it will be in my actual environment).

 

[Youth]

If you have the money I would go for HE-500

 

[Zulkr9]

you can't really use tube amps with the x2, well OTL tube amps anyway, imo x2 is slightly better than hd600/650 in almost every way.I prefer the tonality, the bass is tighter, the midrange is more coherent the highs are natural, the only problem with the x2 is the treble can get grainy at times, soundstage is also better than the HD6xx series. 
I can't imagine the k712 or 702 65th having better bass, the only thing they might excel at over the x2 is soundstage. I can't say for sure because I haven't heard them enough to make a judgement.