[mocenigo]

  Bel canto C5i vs Gustard x20
 
Hi all,
 
I have Golden ear Triton one full range speakers, Line magnetic 219ia 845 tube amp and using a Belcanto c5i as DAC only mode. I am using a WD media player and mostly playing ripped music files mp3 and FLAC.
 
I wanted to update the DAC and was originally going to buy Schiit yaggis but later bought the Gustard x20.
After 6 days of continuous break in Gustard is still behind Bel canto c5i I originally thought i am going to see lot of significant improvement from Gustard x20.
 
the Bel Canto has a very natural presentation, its not harsh, the musical instruments are nice to hear, not congested. the only thing my bel canto missing was the low end. The bass was not tight or punchy as i was expecting. 
 
the Gustard bass is better. exactly what i was looking for. So i was happy about it out of box and hoping after break in this thing is going to sound like bel canto with good bass that i was missing.
After 6 days, there were slight improvements overall with Gustard but not close to Bel Canto on any of the other aspects. 
The Bel Canto c5i is not even a dedicated DAC like Bel Canto 3.7vb from their series. I am wondering now about if i need to look for 3.7 or even 3.5 with vbs from used market.
 
If i switch to Bel canto its almost like night and day for me... the congestion are all gone. everything is clear, crisp and nice to hear.
 
Do i need to break in the gustard more?
if i try the tweaks/mode will it help?

 
This type of sonic problem ("congestion") sounds to me what I get if the amplifier inputs are saturated.  The Gustard has a quite high max output voltage (the manual says 2.3 Vmrs unbalanced, but it is more like 2.8Vmrs, and balanced even 5.6Vmrs - you could use it also as a pre by adding 6 or 12Db gain), so depending on the preamp stage you may want to reduce its volume, even -12Db or -24 Db has still no intrinsic negative impact on sound quality but may end up improving it dramatically because of the better coupling.

I haven't applied the usual mods (change or wrap fuse, twist the cables to/from transformers) but I would expect these to be good but orders of magnitude less relevant than adjusting the coping between the components.

It is my understanding that if you use the Gustard, it does directly into the Line magnetic 219ia, since it is an integrated.you are not using the Belcanto c5i as a pre amp.
 

In case you are still using the bel canto as a pre amp keep note that it first converts all line inputs with a AKM5386 A/D converter, and then applied digital signal processing, for instance to perform volume control, and then all goes through the Wolfson 

WM8740 DAC. So you would still going through the bel canto internal DAC. The digital inputs, OTOH, just apply processing to upsample (to 24/192) and apply volume in the digital domain, and then convert. This means that the original DAC would still in the loop and so adding the Gustard can only reduce the sound quality.
 
 Roberto

 

[mocenigo]

  I have Golden ear Triton one full range speakers, Line magnetic 219ia 845 tube amp and using a Belcanto c5i as DAC only mode. I am using a WD media player and mostly playing ripped music files mp3 and FLAC.
 
[...]
 
the Bel Canto has a very natural presentation, its not harsh, the musical instruments are nice to hear, not congested. the only thing my bel canto missing was the low end. The bass was not tight or punchy as i was expecting. 
 
the Gustard bass is better. exactly what i was looking for. So i was happy about it out of box and hoping after break in this thing is going to sound like bel canto with good bass that i was missing.
 
[...]
 
Do i need to break in the gustard more?
 

 
Follow up on the coupling of the Gustard directly to the LM-291a.
 
The LM specs state: "line input 230 mV, pre-amp in put 1000 mV". So (using 2.8Vrms as a guidance for the highest output of the Gustard) you need to set a max volume of -9Db on the Gustard to be sure you avoid saturation of the pre-amp input and -21Db to use a line level input (probably -18Db is also ok). I assume that the pre-amp input bypasses the pre-amp completely, including volume control, and thus you have to control it on the Gustard - but you should have a quite useable volume range. If you use a line input, find the volume in the Gustard that is ideal and then use the volume control on the LM-219.
 
If you are using the Gustard at Max volume, even in a pianissimo in a classical music recording you are probably saturating the input of the LM-219a already - in any case you are adding a considerable amount of distortion, and you may even be damaging your boxes (tweeters), even though this is unlikely, because tube based amps clip in a much more "tame" way than solid state ones.
 
 Roberto

 

[MHzTweaker]

hello all
 
I've had this DAC in my system for over 6 months now and like it.
 
I cannot get DSD to work with Foobar2000 or HQPlayer
the source remains locked on USB PCM
 
I've downloaded and installed plugins and I just give up....
Am I the only person on Planet Earth that cannot get this to work????
 
 
when I make any attempt to play output in DSD I just get silence. Nothing but silence.
I do have an iFi micro USB 3.0 in the signal chain
 
HELP!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mocenigo]

   
Perhaps you may be confusing things? My Metrum Musette puts out 2v RMS and Gustard X20 supposedly puts out 2.3v RMS single ended. I didn't hear anything to indicate these figures are incorrect; their volume levels were pretty close.

 
Ric Schultz measured 6.6V on the balanced outs, other people measured 5.6 - so it could be anywhere between 2.8V and 3.3V on the unbalanced outs.
 
 Roberto

 

[mocenigo]

  hello all
 
I've had this DAC in my system for over 6 months now and like it.
 
I cannot get DSD to work with Foobar2000 or HQPlayer
the source remains locked on USB PCM
 
I've downloaded and installed plugins and I just give up....
Am I the only person on Planet Earth that cannot get this to work????
 
 
when I make any attempt to play output in DSD I just get silence. Nothing but silence.
I do have an iFi micro USB 3.0 in the signal chain
 
HELP!!!!!!!!!!!

 
Have you tried without the iFi micro USB 3.0 ?
 
 Roberto

 

[MHzTweaker]

   
Have you tried without the iFi micro USB 3.0 ?
 
 Roberto

I believe I had it directly connected to USB for at least a month when I purchased it.
 
No matter now.
 
I just now ordered a Singxer SU-1 DDC
I will install the Singxer Drivers and let it feed the Gustard X20u
Also while I'm mucking around, I will probably:
 
1 - Replace the X20 transformer bolts with nylon ones
2 - Add non-metal doughnuts under the transformers
3 - Twist the internal power wires
4 - Possibly make my own X20 power cord and bypass the ON-OFF switch and fuse.
      http://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html
5 - Remove the USB card from the X20
 
I had looked at the Tanly DCC for a while but for whatever reason waited.

 

[Duy Le]

 
I believe I had it directly connected to USB for at least a month when I purchased it.
 
No matter now.
 
I just now ordered a Singxer SU-1 DDC
I will install the Singxer Drivers and let it feed the Gustard X20u
Also while I'm mucking around, I will probably:
 
1 - Replace the X20 transformer bolts with nylon ones
2 - Add non-metal doughnuts under the transformers
3 - Twist the internal power wires
4 - Possibly make my own X20 power cord and bypass the ON-OFF switch and fuse.
      http://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html
5 - Remove the USB card from the X20
 
I had looked at the Tanly DCC for a while but for whatever reason waited.

I have X20 (non-USB board) feed the Singxer SU1. They work properly well with DSD.
Note: If you want to use i2s (HDMI), you should configure SU1 to work with Gustard DAC by the switch table on SU1: pin 3 and pin 6 are ON (Mode1 and HP15), the others are still OFF.
In the image they are all OFF (before configure).

 

[MHzTweaker]

  I have X20 (non-USB board) feed the Singxer SU1. They work properly well with DSD.
Note: If you want to use i2s (HDMI), you should configure SU1 to work with Gustard DAC by the switch table on SU1: pin 3 and pin 6 are ON (Mode1 and HP15), the others are still OFF.
In the image they are all OFF (before configure).
 

 
Hey thanks. I do plan on using HDMI to connect to my X20U
 
I'll set the switches 3 and 6 on and grab drivers from:
http://download.shenzhenaudio.com/drivers/Singxer-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver_v3.20.0.rar
 
I hope my  SU-1 ships soon

 

[MHzTweaker]

   
Hey thanks. I do plan on using HDMI to connect to my X20U
 
I'll set the switches 3 and 6 on and grab drivers from:
http://download.shenzhenaudio.com/drivers/Singxer-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver_v3.20.0.rar
 
I hope my  SU-1 ships soon

 
 
3 days later and the SU-1 still has not shipped. 

 

[MHzTweaker]

   
 
3 days later and the SU-1 still has not shipped. 

5 days later I get a reply to my email saying "We will look into it"
 
I'm not sure I will make another order from Shenzhen Audio
They have about 400 different items for sale ranging from $3.50 to almost $2000
They promise to ship within 48 hours. There seems to be no substance to this promise.
I'm not sure how my $400 got absorbed but I certainly feel let down at this point.

 

[denti]

I'll be getting the Gustard x20 soon and am wondering how best to use it with SACDs. Is there such a thing as an HDMI to I2S converter? Would that take DSD straight from, say, a cheap Sony to the X20?
 
The only option seems to be getting a modded Oppo, but that's pretty expensive.

 

[JulioCat2]

   
This type of sonic problem ("congestion") sounds to me what I get if the amplifier inputs are saturated.  The Gustard has a quite high max output voltage (the manual says 2.3 Vmrs unbalanced, but it is more like 2.8Vmrs, and balanced even 5.6Vmrs - you could use it also as a pre by adding 6 or 12Db gain), so depending on the preamp stage you may want to reduce its volume, even -12Db or -24 Db has still no intrinsic negative impact on sound quality but may end up improving it dramatically because of the better coupling.
 
 Roberto

 
Thanks for that Roberto!!!!!  -12 db and my system now sound so smooth, less aggressive and much more enjoyable,  great!!!!!

 

[mocenigo]

Thanks for that Roberto!!!!!  -12 db and my system now sound so smooth, less aggressive and much more enjoyable,  great!!!!!

Hi Julio. I am very happy you get more from your DAC. In general one should be very careful about the compatibility of inputs and outputs, both impedance (for the ability to drive an input with the upstream output - avoiding "reverse" driving, oversimplifying) and sensitivity (to avoid saturation).

Try for instance attenuating more, play a bit until you get the ideal combination for your system.

Roberto

 

[mocenigo]

I'll be getting the Gustard x20 soon and am wondering how best to use it with SACDs. Is there such a thing as an HDMI to I2S converter? Would that take DSD straight from, say, a cheap Sony to the X20?

The only option seems to be getting a modded Oppo, but that's pretty expensive.

Usually modded Oppos are expensive and many mods just output hires PCM converted from the DSD stream.

What you need is to, ahem, extract the SACD layer. Use a hacked first generation PS3 (plenty of info on the internet), which is what I found, and alternatively there is a new option: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/sacd-ripping-using-oppo-or-pioneer-yes-its-true-29251/

Roberto

 

[dcepela]

Can anybody comment on the quality difference between using the digital volume control of the Gustard directly into an amp vs fixed output through a preamp? Possibly even a passive.

Basically I'm newish to the scene and am moving from integrated to separates. I'm trying to decide if I should go for the Gustard as a dac/preamp or get a separate preamp. I basically only use my desktop USB (mostly 24b & DSD, some rebook) as a source so the only function I really need is volume. This is also why something simple, such as a passive is appealing. I'm on a budget so "trial & error" can get expensive!

Thanks!

Dan


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