[rb2013]

You should give bimmer's intona a try. You could be very impressed. Mine has improved furthermore. I was listening to Marsalis Magic Hour. Heard some details never ever heard a hint of before, and so clearly. At this point, it's worth a breeze and a half of an upgrade. This thing needs to burn for more than 200 hours.
I might get a lightspeed 1g cable and put a male a to female a adaptor, with power pins cut. It should be close to a 2g.

The Lightspeed 1G is not close to the 2G - it in fact not even a split cable.
 

  LightSpeed 1G
A two meter USB A to USB B cable. Perfect for connection of high performance DACs to PCs or Macs for music playback.
LightSpeed 2G
A two meter ultra-wide bandwidth USB-A to USB-B cable (over four times the USB 2.0 Spec) that allows for perfect delivery of all USB audio information. Innovative dual-connector design separates power and data conductors to minimize noise and interference for maximum performance.

 

[rb2013]

Just to set the record straight - as there is so much misinformation being passed around here - 8kHz packet Noise as Uptone's chief engineer John Swenson speaks about  - DOES not come from the PC USB itself!  It's generated by the USB converter AGC and USB processor reacting to varying levels of signal integrity.  The USB receiver in the DDC using 'Automatic Gain Control' circuits has to activate with poor USB data signal integrity - that along with USB processor itself (in this case the XMOS) reacting to the varying data packet delivery - causes inter-modulation in the DDC power supply.
 
No galvanic isolation filters that out - period!
 
What the Regen attempts to do is a couple of things  - one match impedance as closely as possible - as any impedance mismatches cause backwave reflections - these cause the USB reciver issues - thus feeding the 'packet noise problem'.  Second reclocking the USB data signal with good XO clocks - again the idea is to provide a 'cleaner' signal to the USB receiver.
 
All the Intona does is isolate the USB PC ground (needed for USB power delivery) and reclock the USB signal with dirty clocks.  Period!  No magic here.  Packet Noise crosses all isolators - because it's the way the PHY USB data is packetized and processed.  With USB 2.0 Asyn - it's worse as the normal USB error correction for missing or bad packet is disabled.
 
If you use a data only feed (as the USB bridges here are external powered), you can easily BLOCK the power AND the GROUND connection with a simple VBUS +5VDC blocker - I used a Jitterbug and clipped the 1 and 4 pins.  Easy - absolutely no PC USB ground or power in the picture.
 
But that does not eliminate 'packet noise' - that is generated IN the USB receiver itself.  So a very high quality USB cable with extremely close impedance tolerances (2G) provides the USB bridge receiver the highest and best data signal integrity.  A PPA PCI USB card can provide better data signal integrity by removing the USB signal from the PC USB Bus - where typically there are other devices attached - like a mouse, keyboard, ext hard drive, etc...
 
From John Swenson

Remember that SI consists of rise/fall time, noise, and jitter. The jitter in the SIGNAL is determined by the transmitter PHY, which can be significantly influenced by the clock IT gets and the noise on its PG planes. USUALLY noise is low on the signal as it exits the PHY. The cable (and connectors) cause an increase in raise/fall times, added noise (EMI and crosstalk from power and ground wires) and decreased amplitude of the signal. Any decent receiver will have an automatic gain control (AGC) which compensates for this effect, but that raises the noise on the signal, so I'm lumping the amplitude decrease into noise. The cable by itself rarely adds jitter to the signal, BUT the increased rise/fall times and extra noise cause the received data to have increased jitter in the PHY. This is one of the big issues that all that extra processing is designed to deal with.

When that XMOS chip is dealing with data from the host it is generating its own noise on the PG planes, part of the noise will be from the PHY and part from the MAC. The PHY part can change due to SI of the USB signal, the rest cannot, it stays the same. If separate ground planes and separate power supplies are not used, that noise can directly affect the DAC chip(s) and the master clock oscillator. As was posted from a previous post of mine, even if separate supplies and planes are used with isolation between them, the effects of this noise still winds up at the DAC chip and clock.

The part of this noise not from the PHY is always there, it doesn't matter what your cable is, what USB card you have, whether you have a REGEN etc, it's still there. All that stuff is keeping the PHY part from ADDING extra noise that makes things worse. 

The technically correct solution is to figure out how to prevent this noise from crossing the barrier and getting into the DAC chip and clock, unfortunately this is really tough and nobody has yet to completely figured out how to do this. Thus every DAC ever built will have some level of susceptibility to external influences, some more some less. 

By the way, just because a DAC is not very sensitive to external influences does not mean it sounds really good, there are lots of ways to decrease the sensitivity that muck up the sound. The trick is decrease the sensitivity AND do it in such a way that doesn't decrease SQ. 

So everybody that is tweaking their computers, using different cables, a REGEN etc are all still hearing the effects of the non-PHY noise. If we can figure out how to get rid of THAT, WOW, you won't know what hit you.  

What I have been finding in looking at DACs etc with USB inputs is that there is what I am calling "packet noise". This is bursts of noise caused by the USB receiver processing the packets of data. This noise shows up on both power and ground planes. Since the rate of packets is 8KHz there are strong components of this noise in the audio band. This noise can cause jitter in clock oscillators, reclocking flops, and DAC chips. It can also go directly into noise on the output of DAC chips. 

The question everybody asks then is: well what about the DACs that have full isolation between the USB system and reclocking on the DAC side? Unfortunately this noise likes to make it through even this. Exactly how this works is complicated, I have written about this in the AudioStream articles. And bits and pieces in other posts recently. The upshot is that neither galvanic isolation nor reclocking completely get rid of it. They help attenuate it some, but don't get rid of it.

This packet noise consists of two parts: noise from the USB protocol engine and from the USB PHY. The protocol engine noise does not depend on the input signal quality, just the data, so its impact is always going to be the same no matter what is done with the input. The PHY is the part that actually connects to the electrical signals on the bus, ITS contribution to packet noise IS dependent on the quality of the input signal. This is the part the REGEN targets.

A high-speed USB signal runs at 480 mega bits per second, which is fairly high. Different cables and connectors can significantly degrade the "Signal Integrity" (SI). SI consists of the rise/fall times of the signal, noise on the signal and jitter of the edges. Increases in any or all of these can decrease the SI. The decrease in SI can be so large that it becomes difficult for the PHY to determine the actual bits. Thus the PHY contains several methods used to pre-process the analog signals in order to make it easier to determine the bits. Modern high speed serial interfaces work at all because of these techniques that have been developed over the years. 

When the SI is very good, the PHY can turn off the pre-processing steps and easily determine the bits. As the SI degrades the PHY turns on different parts of the pre-processing as needed. Each of these steps takes a fair amount of power to operate, thus creating noise on the power and ground planes. The more processing the PHY needs to use to determine the bits, the more noise is generated. Thus part of the packet noise is directly related to the signal integrity of the incoming signal. The higher the SI, the lower the noise.

It is very important here to realize this is noise that is GENERATED inside the DAC by its own operation, it is NOT noise on the USB bus that is somehow getting into the DAC as is commonly thought.  

 

[bimmer100]

The PPA3 I purchased on a whim, I had money to go and try the best they offered. I chose the PPA3, as I feel having a good USB card that allows for external Linear power will be a key element to improvement of my overall sound quality. Femto clock or not, the power is likely the biggest improvement. Speaking of Power, i'll get a professional opinion on the 1uV ifi power supply you speak of, as I don't have the "quote" from said professional handy, but you might wonder why one can offer such a cheap alternative to a high end ultra low noise psu that does 20uV (Paul Hynes), 40uV(mojo) 60uV (Intona). Each have their own properties and disadvantages. If you read up on Belleson's website you'll find that there are MANY weaknesses to each power supply design, Jung , Shunt, Battery, Burson, Dexa, LT and LM, SuperTeddyReg. Again, I won't pretend to know what i'm talking about, but I recall there was a major flaw with the ifi 1uV for certain applications.  And the difference audibly in microvolts is negligible when you even get down to the microvolt level. Going from a DC30W @ 1mV to anything I just mentioned in the 20-60uV range may or may not be audible to certain people. Certainly it is audible going from a PC's power supply of 15-20mV noise to a dc30W @ 1mV. That's a very welcome improvement. But I spend all this money to let others know my experience with this fancy audio gear that is highly hyped up. I hate to have everyone spend their money on gear if they don't really need it. If you listen to headphones, its less likely you'll hear a difference than if you listen to loud speakers or ultra sensitive planar magnetics like maggies. I have "decent" headphones to do my listening tests, but am not fortunate enough to have a loud speaker setup like you...or at least I think you do. 
 
Quote:

 
Well I offered to buy your Cerious GE cable - for what you paid.  And no offer - so I guess it's worth the $250?  I mean you were complaining how I egged into buying all this stuff and it's all worthless (I'm just blogging my experience and don't suggest anyone buy any of this - that should be clear to anyone who reads a blog)?
 
And you did just say you were selling your PPA3.0 now you have the Intona - didn't you?  So why a PPA 2.0?  So you quote the Intona noise at 60uV in the audible range - but iFi quotes 1uV for the iPowered iUSB3.0 - so why is that not 60x better?  The 8kHz packet noise is in the audible range right.
 
If the PPA 2.0 is nearly as good as the PPA 3.0 - why would you pay another $300 for it?
 
Just so many inconsistencies and contradictions I'm having a hard time following your logic?

 
 
For example you say:
Is the awesome comment sarcastic or do you truly feel a $250 power cable that provides 'every so slight improvements' is worth it?
 
You say 'but certainly not some magical pairing' - do you have a functioning Breeze that you've paired it to?  How can you say it's not 'magical'?  Then you say 'I will try the breeze and the graphene extreme as you say it's a good match' - so I'm guessing you haven't tried them together?  See what I mean - I'm lost here.  Then the comment 'I expect to hear subtle change at most' - well OK you can have a view before trying - but be open minded about it when you do, then post about it.
 
I appreciate your input to the thread - it's just this harping on this Intona thing is wearing me out. 

I've never said the GE cable was for sale, so why would you offer to buy it? I don't even recall you asking. even if you offered to buy anything, i'd turn you down. I'm with this instigation. I keep my posts as objective as possible. I consider to sell a lot of gear as it's purchased to find out if it really makes a difference. I have too much fancy gear, and some has to go. I do like the GE cables as they match my system a little better than the SR Tesla T1 SE, that's best suited for tube gear. It's not that any one cable will be the magic ingredient for all systems. You must try it and listen. Sadly I'm still trying to figure out the differences. Gold = whatever, Rhodium = whatever Silver = whatever...honestly, it's never remained consistent. I just listen and then be honest about what I hear. I've been sarcastic in saying...
my quote:
"Yes! I have spent quite a bit of time with this piece of gear. Quite nice! But very expensive imho and didn't make much difference compared to a regen Amber. A friend won one of these and brought it over a couple of weeks ago. We spent a lot of time with it and overall it's pretty nice. I would prefer my intona over the ifi iUSB3.0 I would like to borrow it again and compare to the intona, but I know that this ifi does NOT do what the intona does best. True high speed galvanically isolated data and power. Also.... It can withstand over 2G's of force!!! That's where I was sold. Because when you hear my audio gear setup it will throw you to the back of your seat at a violent 2G of force. It's just that good 

But seriously..."
 
Pick up on the sarcasm? hopefully. My system sounds good imho. But i'm just joking around with the 2G thing, i'm over talking about this in a serious way, as if it is even relevant to why the intona is capable or not. It's not relevant. Many cables use fancy materials and marketing to get you to buy it, maybe it has a functional purpose or not. But if it sounds good, that's all I care about. I mean literally sounding better than without. Not marketing hype.
 
I will have a functional Breeze in the very near future to test. As I mentioned before. I'm testing these DDC's to give a straight forward opinion on each of them. I'm spending my money so others don't have to.  The Pro3A so far is one of the beset deals without question. And likely will end up on the top...not trying to be a spoiler. IF, you get the yellow one however... That's the one I got seriously. I did. So I can't comment on the black or silver one, those might be uber special versions, right RB? again... please sense sarcasm. I would logically say it comes down to quality control issues or variances in your power implementation... ie: (time of day = better or worse power) (no consistent current/noise/sinewave, since no ac regen) - maybe you'd have less variances if your power implementation was worked on a bit more. You had a P300 before, likely only with the stock fuse... I though tfuses' were totally hype...crazy thing is... with the P300, the stock fuse made more than a subtle difference. It was congested and stuffy, nasaly like sound. I upgraded to a hifi-tuning supreme fuse and it opened up a bit, now a Audio Horizons Platinum fuse and finally....neutrality, clean sound. Also have an AMR Gold fuse that's quite nice. That's that. fuse's don't always make a difference though...only certain gear. Basically, all the fuses were easily distinguishable from the stock p300 fuse. Maybe that's why your experience with the p300 was not great.
 
 
back to the GE...
I said  the GE cable give "slight" improvements. that's honest, it's certainly not magical. Nor did I say what the combo was like with the breeze, only commenting on your experience of it being a good pairing. My expectations are my expectations, not a fact. nothing more than what I feel or expect. I've been pleasantly surprised before. But i'm certainly not in the wrong for having expectations of what the Breeze and GE cable may sound like together. The jump from a U12 to Melodious, to a Pro3A and Breeze are all so similar. nothing close to your quoted measurements in my situation.
Quote:

 
Hi, Well first off - congrats on the Yggy - what a beauty!  Big fan of R2R DACs and with the tech Schiit put in that beast - I bet sounds amazing.
 
Second - I have not heard the new 'redesigned' Melodious.  I had lots of issues with a couple of the Melodious I bought and won't be trying their latest creation.
 
Third of the two - I would buy neither.  I would get a Breeze Audio DU-U8 - it is cheaper and sound betters (at least in my two systems) and comes in silver.
The Breeze has AES/EBU outputs.  I have had several of each - even modding the U12 and Melodious  - the DU-U8 crushes them.  I even had a Hydra Z fed by a linear power supply after my living with the U12 and the MX-U8 and it bettered both.  Then the Breeze blew in and that Z was sold.
 
Here would be my ranking and ratings:
 
Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version)             98
Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version)               95
Hydra Z with LPS                                     92
Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps)         85
Melodious MX-U8 (stock)                        81
Gustard U12 (upgraded caps)                 76
Gustard U12 stock                                   72
iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC)                  65
Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon                  65
M2Tech EVO with LPS                            60
Audiophileo 2                                           50
M2Tech Hiface                                         40
 
 
Note be sure to ask the seller for the Talema transformer upgrade it's only a few dollars more.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/141026791919?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
 
There is another candidate with AES - the PUC2 Lite - AES only.  I have heard good things about it, but so far have not tried it.
http://www.stereotimes.com/post/yellowtec-puc2-lite-usb-converter/
 
Good luck and report your results.
 
Cheers!

 

I'm not sure I could expect results like this. Maybe these are true for your situation. But 26 points less for a u12 to a breeze DU-U8.  If I ever read a subjective post, this is one. And thanks for sharing your opinions. Each result may vary from user to user. Even the Silver PRO3A would rank,, what? 103 over the black PRO3A with its ranking of 101. But the yellow one, I don't know. maybe 105? (sarcasm) Anyhow. We all make silly comments from time to time. 
 
I am first to admit i'm learning as i'm going along with this whole DDC, usb isolation, and i'm not going to pretend like I fully understand where packet noise comes from. 
 
I'm unsubscribing from this thread for the very reason i'm not going to entertain arguments about subjective material. I've got many other projects to deal with than this. I'm quite happy for you, Rb2013, that you're finding nirvana with with your cables and such. I've not ever quoted that you'd egged me into buying anything. I recall something along the lines about your claims for gains have been a bit over exaggerated. And everyone is guilty of this from time to time. I have been quote sarcastic in some of my posts. The recent comment about the GE cable with slight gains was NOT sarcastic, but quite genuine. I'm very happy to see ANY improvement from a cable. I simply don't believe cables are the best place to spend money when you're putting together gear.  Buying Headphones, AMP, power implementation (ie: linear power, ac regen), then comes DDC, headphone cables, power cables and very last...usb cables.  I have reached the point of the last 1% and that is within usb cables. the least exciting changes of them all. Assuming you have good power implementation, you'll see how little a usb cable makes a difference. Otherwise, they fluctuate quite a bit more when power implementation is overlooking...sadly it often is. 
 
I'll post my results on the DDC comparison this month when I have given the breeze a fair chance. and have married it to its soulmate, the GE cable.  Also modded it with 957's for further testing. all will be compared. This sat morning i'll be installing 957's in my DIU8. I'll be documenting everything I hear. my expectations are very low for this project as a whole. I welcome to be pleasantly surprised. The only DDC that stands out of the crowd is the Pro3A currently. and for my own needs, the DIU8 is quite nice, hopefully the 957's will smear that line between the Pro3A.  I do however have my power implementation quite ideal in all situations. I should get a clean cut comparison based on this base foundation of stable/clean power. 

 

[rb2013]

Well I won't fault you for sarcasm!  I have more then enough myself - in fact I think it's kind of amusing.
 
Now on the color thing regarding the DXIO Pro 3a - I don't really think the color itself has anything to do with it, per se, but maybe these were made in different production runs.  Just as likely there are individual production variations.  I'm scratching my head on that one.  Maybe I happen-stanced into seredipity and got a 6 sigma outlier!
 
Hell if I know - I'm just digging the sound.  My power supplies have remained the same - I believe the stock DC-30W (with the large 3300uf Pannie caps) is fully burnt in by now -same goes for the X1 with the FR's.  I have held off from upgrading this DC-30W with the Pannie FR's I have on my desk - just to not have to wait out another few hundred hours.  I need to send my friend his PUC2 lite back (and a DXIO as I promised), it's been several weeks. Thanks Bro'!!!
 
I'm going to try the iPower 1uV I orderd two different voltages - so we'll see.
 
But thanks for posting my old rankings - I'll update below

 

[rb2013]

Here would be my current ranking and ratings:
 
 
 
DXIO Silver/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious     130
PUC2 Lite TeraDak X1/FR caps/Cerious    125
DXIO Black/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious      118 unit not working properly
PUC2 Lite - USB power                          110
Breeze with Cerious Graphene                108
Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version)                98
Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version)                 95
Hydra Z with LPS                                    92
Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps)             85
Melodious MX-U8 (stock)                          81
Gustard U12 (upgraded caps)                    76
Gustard U12 stock                                   72
iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC)                      65
Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon                      65
M2Tech EVO with LPS                               60
Audiophileo 2                                          50
M2Tech Hiface                                         40

 

[FredA]

  The Lightspeed 1G is not close to the 2G - it in fact not even a split cable.
 

 
Well it is supposed to be similar except the split design. So my point is that by cutting the power pins at source, you could maybe get something comparable, assuming you don't need them.

 

[rb2013]

   
Well it is supposed to be similar exept the split design. So my point is that by cutting the power pins at source, you could maybe get something comparable, assuming you don't need them.

I don't think it's made to the same 4X tolerances as the 2G

 

[FredA]

 
I don't think it's made to the same 4X tolerances as the 2G

Anyway, I have a got short supra on the way plus a valab. Will test them against my best cable and see. 200$ for the 2g (plus change to can $) is off my psychological limit.

 

[bimmer100]

  Anyway, I have a got short supra on the way plus a valab. Will test them against my best cable and see. 200$ for the 2g (plus change to can $) is off my psychological limit.

very wise man! you'll be more than pleased with the supra cable.

 

[robertsong]

  I'll post my results on the DDC comparison this month when I have given the breeze a fair chance. and have married it to its soulmate, the GE cable.  Also modded it with 957's for further testing. all will be compared. This sat morning i'll be installing 957's in my DIU8. I'll be documenting everything I hear. my expectations are very low for this project as a whole. I welcome to be pleasantly surprised. The only DDC that stands out of the crowd is the Pro3A currently. and for my own needs, the DIU8 is quite nice, hopefully the 957's will smear that line between the Pro3A.  I do however have my power implementation quite ideal in all situations. I should get a clean cut comparison based on this base foundation of stable/clean power. 

 
 
Yeah, very interested in what the 957 Crysteks do to various DDC's...  especially the Breeze (when you finally get one... lol).
 
Please report your findings here.

 

[robertsong]

The DDC that everybody seems to be forgetting about is the Luckit WaveIO. Not sure why.
 
I have one on order and should be arriving in the next 2 weeks.
 
 

 
 
 
 
http://luckit.biz/product/waveio/
 
I have a very good expectation about this one. Otherwise, I'll gladly keep the Breeze DU-U8 and that will be that.

 

[bimmer100]

  The DDC that everybody seems to be forgetting about is the Luckit WaveIO. Not sure why.
 
I have one on order and should be arriving in the next 2 weeks.
 
 

 
 
 
 
http://luckit.biz/product/waveio/
 
I have a very good expectation about this one. Otherwise, I'll gladly keep the Breeze DU-U8 and that will be that.

I haven't forgotten that one. i'm going to build one in a DIY box, I have been planning this project for a while. It's the best DDC design out there.
downside is it requires a bit of DIY knowhow. Not just plug in and forget about it. So not ideal for many people.

 

[glip]

Thank for your reply
 
Hi, I am here again and having problems connecting the GUSTARD u12 to my Mac Mini. I am trying to used with OSX Maverick 10.9.5 and the plug and play, and simply it does not work. It does no recognize the USB SOUND OUTPUT. I have a DAC now (v90 MUSICA FIDELITY) and I am connecting it like this:
 
Mac mini, usb --- usb cable--- usb input, GUSTARD u12,optical output--- optical cable--- optical input, v90-DAC---to my sound system.
 
 
I need the drives to make it work with OSX Maverick 10.9.5… is there any other way???
 
Please HELP!!
 
Thanks!!
 
glip

 

[glip]

Thank for your reply
 
Hi, I am here again and having problems connecting the GUSTARD u12 to my Mac Mini. I am trying to used with OSX Maverick 10.9.5 and the plug and play, and simply it does not work. It does no recognize the USB SOUND OUTPUT. I have a DAC now (v90 MUSICA FIDELITY) and I am connecting it like this:
 
Mac mini, usb --- usb cable--- usb input, GUSTARD u12,optical output--- optical cable--- optical input, v90-DAC---to my sound system.
 
 
I need the drives to make it work with OSX Maverick 10.9.5… is there any other way???
 
Please HELP!!
 
Thanks!!
 
glip

 

[rb2013]

  very wise man! you'll be more than pleased with the supra cable.

I have a Supra - no comparison to the 2G - but for $50 bucks pretty good.  I do like the Forza Twin Copper split better and it's only $29 more.