BShaw
1000+ Head-Fier
I considered the 1421, a very good dac from what I know, but the Gustard has more functionality and I can’t verify this but it’s most likely a better DAC overall.
GUSTARD DAC-R26 Balanced Decoder R2R+1Bit Dual Native Decoding Music Bridge
- Thread starter m-i-c-k-e-y
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m-i-c-k-e-y
Headphoneus Supremus
DAC2541 you mean? Both more or less on the same price range. The former a bit cheaper (and cheaper still now on their summer special - till August). The OTHER forum has a dedicated thread. In here (thread) is somewhat general...
Soekris 2541 (w/ summer discount) + Allo USBridge Sig or RaspDAC is sure tempting.
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sajunky
Headphoneus Supremus
Great post, a comment to the highlighted part.
Short answer: NOS mode requires better amplification (class A discrete non-feedback or a tube amp). The entire audio analogue path from the ladder output to your headphones.
Gustard advertise using discrete output stage. It can be read as non-opamp design which is misleading. There are opamps in the audio path as reported earlier in this thread, these opamps react poorly to the ultrasonic noise generated by ladder. It think a relevant notice should be placed on the first post.
A workaround is to use oversampling, either internal (as you pointed out) or in your player added with noise shaping for reducing transients, making job easier for opamps, as suggested by others.
I tested oversampling on the Audio GD DAC (which use true discrete non-feedback design), first using SoX with Foobar, then had a trial experience with HQPlayer. I didn't like its extensive noise shaping, always present, even it is supposed to be turned off. This commercial software is cheating on you, cannot be used as a reference. It is why I made further tests with PGGB resampler, it gives the best results. Having said that, there is always loss in musicality, even with an optional noise shaping turned off. Following these tests I do not bother anymore with improving the work of mastering engineers, but do play music in the original form.
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sajunky
Headphoneus Supremus
Soekris is on equal level with Gustard, both use opamps in audio path, it sets the limits. Gustard has more features: network and NOS mode.
Upgrading from Topping - always.
milkdudd
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My interconnects and USB cable cost more than my DAC. That should earn me at least SOME ridicule!I'm just waiting for that day when someone buys a fuse that is more expensive than the DAC itself
m-i-c-k-e-y
Headphoneus Supremus
What? In this hobby?...
That is ridiculous! (Accompanied by the sound of a couple of panes of my glasshouse shattering)
Speaking of ridiculousness… with the arrival of FMCs and an AliX ethernet reclocker gadget I’d forgotten I ordered my ethernet chain is now absurd - external power supply or filtration in brackets:
Cable modem(1) > router(1) > Netgear GS108E(2)* > FMC1(3) > FMC2(1) > AliX CCHD957 ethernet reclocker (3) > Ifi LAN iSilencer > LHY SW-8 (4) > R26
Edit - Mac Mini Roon/HQP Server is also connected to LHY SW-8 with a second iFi LAN iSilencer plugged into the LHY. Need to try it in another location but previously system didn't sound as good with the Mini plugged into the Netgear... It seems to benefit from the better clocked LHY even though it's a noise source sitting 'nearer' in the chain to the R26.
The FMCs are @rodthebod ’s recommended ones and they - when used with good PS - are amazing bang for the buck in terms of further cleaning up the signal (primarily a more focussed, cleaner soundstage) beyond my previously purely switch based chain in my sig. I tried the FMCs in several locations with and without the other ethernet filters and switches I list and they - or rather the sound from the R26 - benefits cumulatively from each device in the chain (gets progressively more palpable, textured and relaxed… more real), including having the Netgear switch before the FMCs. Go figure
.
External PS:
Battery 12v sounded fuller and more natural than Ifi Power X on second FMC.
I also have a Teradak FMC with some Finisar SFPs to try but it is not compatible with Rod’s FMCs, even with the SC>LC adaptor cable I got.
Adding grounding (boxes) of the two switches with copper foil & wire connections into the mix it is a total spaghetti junction mess right now… I’d much rather a one or two box solution that achieves the same standard without spending ridiculous money. But for now am in full mad scientist mode. I might have to get a small cabinet with doors just for the ethernet chain to hide it away…
Cable modem(1) > router(1) > Netgear GS108E(2)* > FMC1(3) > FMC2(1) > AliX CCHD957 ethernet reclocker (3) > Ifi LAN iSilencer > LHY SW-8 (4) > R26
Edit - Mac Mini Roon/HQP Server is also connected to LHY SW-8 with a second iFi LAN iSilencer plugged into the LHY. Need to try it in another location but previously system didn't sound as good with the Mini plugged into the Netgear... It seems to benefit from the better clocked LHY even though it's a noise source sitting 'nearer' in the chain to the R26.
The FMCs are @rodthebod ’s recommended ones and they - when used with good PS - are amazing bang for the buck in terms of further cleaning up the signal (primarily a more focussed, cleaner soundstage) beyond my previously purely switch based chain in my sig. I tried the FMCs in several locations with and without the other ethernet filters and switches I list and they - or rather the sound from the R26 - benefits cumulatively from each device in the chain (gets progressively more palpable, textured and relaxed… more real), including having the Netgear switch before the FMCs. Go figure
.External PS:
- 12V DC from 100Ah lifePO4 battery x 3 outputs (has a very high max current capacity of 150A at 12v, so enormous headroom beyond the 5-8 amps the three connected devices need in total)
- Ifi Power X 12v
- Topping P50 LPS - 5v USB-DC out x 2
- Flux-50 style AliX mains cable filter.. I have four of these now, also on the R26, my clock and power amp, they are superb.
Battery 12v sounded fuller and more natural than Ifi Power X on second FMC.
I also have a Teradak FMC with some Finisar SFPs to try but it is not compatible with Rod’s FMCs, even with the SC>LC adaptor cable I got.
Adding grounding (boxes) of the two switches with copper foil & wire connections into the mix it is a total spaghetti junction mess right now… I’d much rather a one or two box solution that achieves the same standard without spending ridiculous money. But for now am in full mad scientist mode. I might have to get a small cabinet with doors just for the ethernet chain to hide it away…
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milkdudd
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When I consider that all in I have as much into audio as a new car (not a Porsche, I'm not that far gone) I agree it's ridiculous. Until it's late at night and I sit down with some beer and tequila and forget about all the world's troubles for a couple of hours. It brings a million miles of smiles, which beats a thousand pounds of frowns any dayThat is ridiculous! (Accompanied by the sound of a couple of panes of my glasshouse shattering)
@rodthebod After further listening to the FMCs I better appreciate what they bring over and above my existing switches. In addition to the cleaner background and and more focussed soundstage I mentioned, there's more refinement and clearly greater dynamics, more punchy bass.
And then I thought... Hmm, I wonder how they respond to vibration damping.
Very well it turns out. A 5x3cm sheet of 2mm thick fo.Q SH-22K on the 'noisy' side improved the harmonic richness of the guitar strumming in Mazzy Star's Fade Into You whilst Hope Sandoval's voice filled out a little, lost some edges. Adding another sheet to the clean side FMC did more of the same, as did a sheet on each of the AliX ethernet reclocker after the clean FMC and then Topping P50 feeding the dirty FMC and the reclocker. The net result just from this vibration damping was a decidely more lush and harmonically rich sound where the guitar was more true to life and Hope's voice sweeter and more palpable. We're not talking a modest 10 or 20% improvement over the base FMCs w LPS , more like 30-50% plus...
It never ceases to surprise me how basically everything seems to besensitive to low level self-generated vibration. I've even got a small sheet stuck on the back of my TV that has a similar character of effect, if not quite as dramatic as in the FMC chain.
Tweak on!
And then I thought... Hmm, I wonder how they respond to vibration damping.
Very well it turns out. A 5x3cm sheet of 2mm thick fo.Q SH-22K on the 'noisy' side improved the harmonic richness of the guitar strumming in Mazzy Star's Fade Into You whilst Hope Sandoval's voice filled out a little, lost some edges. Adding another sheet to the clean side FMC did more of the same, as did a sheet on each of the AliX ethernet reclocker after the clean FMC and then Topping P50 feeding the dirty FMC and the reclocker. The net result just from this vibration damping was a decidely more lush and harmonically rich sound where the guitar was more true to life and Hope's voice sweeter and more palpable. We're not talking a modest 10 or 20% improvement over the base FMCs w LPS , more like 30-50% plus...It never ceases to surprise me how basically everything seems to besensitive to low level self-generated vibration. I've even got a small sheet stuck on the back of my TV that has a similar character of effect, if not quite as dramatic as in the FMC chain.
Tweak on!
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BShaw
1000+ Head-Fier
Seems like foQ is very hard to come by now Jake, maybe you cornered the market@rodthebod After further listening to the FMCs I better appreciate what they bring over and above my existing switches. In addition to the cleaner background and and more focussed soundstage I mentioned, there's more refinement and clearly greater dynamics, more punchy bass.
And then I thought... Hmm, I wonder how they respond to vibration damping.
It never ceases to surprise me how basically everything seems to besensitive to low level self-generated vibration. I've even got a small sheet stuck on the back of my TV that has a similar character of effect, if not quite as dramatic as in the FMC chain.
Tweak on!
. Do you know of another product that performs the same function? I have plenty of bituminous damping ala Dynamat, but not sure where to get the voodoo stuff.Yes, sorry, posting about a near unobtainium material is probably not that helpful unless there’s an available comparable alternative. Some <10 left globally, which I guess I helped deplete, mea culpaSeems like foQ is very hard to come by now Jake, maybe you cornered the market
though I paid royally for it . I have also tried Dynamat Xtreme and it has a more subtle effect, not the same alas. High quality footers like Rod’s are another alternative, but appreciate the cost adds up fast if applying to multiple small items like I’ve been describing, not quite the same use case. I’ll PM you re re the limited remaining stocks in the wild I’m aware of.. anyone else interested PM me.
rodthebod
100+ Head-Fier
Yes, those inexpensive FMC's costing less than €20 for a pair (including two 5v SMPS's - always much better to use a decent LPS on the clean side though or a battery bank) are remarkable and very good to hear your feedback. Sometimes less is more...... but more damping!@rodthebod After further listening to the FMCs I better appreciate what they bring over and above my existing switches. In addition to the cleaner background and and more focussed soundstage I mentioned, there's more refinement and clearly greater dynamics, more punchy bass.
And then I thought... Hmm, I wonder how they respond to vibration damping.
It never ceases to surprise me how basically everything seems to besensitive to low level self-generated vibration. I've even got a small sheet stuck on the back of my TV that has a similar character of effect, if not quite as dramatic as in the FMC chain.
Tweak on!
I'll try out some damping materials too once I get back into the listening room when it's cooled down......... I've used 'flashband' in the past which is a tar based material with an aluminium skin used for repairing roof slate to brick flashing, bit messy though. But I think a neoprene rubber might suffice. I also have car damping panels to try.
Stellabagpuss
100+ Head-Fier
Snap Rodders, Roof flashing, that's sold in DIY stores is great at damping, it's cheap,and not a million miles from what has been used in internal speaker enclosures.
In regards to the FMC, l also run them, but Jake mentioned they will also run on a higher voltage than the recommended 5 volts? ls this the case and what difference in sound does it benefit?
Not sure if this question is directed to me or Rod but I've not been in a position to compare a 12v vs 5v DC feed from an otherwise identical power supply, otherwise any audible difference could just as easily be due to the different PS design than the voltage difference. Though now I think about it I'm not sure I directly AB'd the 12v battery or Ifi PS vs the 5V Topping. Will do. This exchange reminds me that I've read previously on the AS forum that some folk prefer using lower powered PS with FMCs - the theory being IIRC the higher power is redundant for short lengths and likely lessens RFI/EMI generated and optical reflections in the cable. (Though practically speaking the combination of voltage and amperage supplied would have to limit the effective operating wattage of the FMC below what it would naturally draw if not so constrained)
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