[Davidv100]

Highfive99,
Shall we agree that if a A26/R26 needs an external clock to make an outstanding difference, that means that you actually need A26/R26 + Clock which is > $3,000.

If the budget needed is indeed > $3,000 then it opens a realm of other competitive devices, as you say.

PS: I have changed “crap” by “sub-par” to be more neutral, and also because it is not my point at all. Indeed, what I mean, is that their clock is most probably good enough (femto = 10^-15), that an external clocks makes no audible difference. Otherwise there must be something fundamentally wrong.

 

[milkdudd]

Highfive99,
Shall we agree that if a A26/R26 needs an external clock to make an outstanding difference, that means that you actually need A26/R26 + Clock which is > $3,000.

If the budget needed is indeed > $3,000 then it opens a realm of other competitive devices, as you say.

PS: I have changed “crap” by “sub-par” to be more neutral, and also because it is not my point at all. Indeed, what I mean, is that their clock is most probably good enough (femto = 10^-15), that an external clocks makes no audible difference. Otherwise there must be something fundamentally wrong.

I doubt you will get much (if any) agreement on this forum from those of us who own these dacs that they are "sub-par" in build quality, sound quality or in any other way (except for the remote, which I don't use anyway). What I found sub-par was the Topping D90 that the ASR crowd loved so much they would have taken it home to meet mother and married it if they could

 

[Jake2]

I picked up a LHY OCK-1 to clock my U18 and X26Pro. All I can say is it's been the best bang for the buck upgrade I've experienced in my rig. To me, it sounds like I bought a new DAC that's more upscale than the X26Pro. SQ improvement in every describable way. Much more of an improvement than 3 SR Purples that I bought.

Awesome! Welcome to the club. Remarkable and an eye opener how a ~$400 device can elevate the already excellent Gustard X, R and A DACs' performance isn't it.

If they were competitive in internally clocked form (as most pro reviews assess them) with say $3k Dacs like the Venus or Spring 3 then surely they must sail past (in many respects) with the scale of the jump such a clock brings. Neither of those DACs being affordably or easily externally clockable of course (Denafrips dont accept 10mhz clocks, no external clock input on Holo DACs)

Edit - I'd add that I view this scalability as a testament to the performance of Gustard's K2 clock synthesiser rather than any criticism of the internal oscillators built into their DACs which - I'll say again - are very competitive in stock form.

 

[Davidv100]

I doubt you will get much (if any) agreement on this forum from those of us who own these dacs that they are "sub-par" in build quality, sound quality or in any other way (except for the remote, which I don't use anyway). What I found sub-par was the Topping D90 that the ASR crowd loved so much they would have taken it home to meet mother and married it if they could

I think my point has been understood in the total opposite way of what I intended.

I am shopping for a A26/R26...
... Unless I have to understand that an external clock is needed to "unleash" the marvel, and a DDC is needed to compensate the not-so-marvellous USB (not galvanically isolated) port.

If this is the reality, and as discussed earlier :
- I understand that for people already having a C18 and a U18, A26/R26 is a nice fit.
- But for people having no clock or DDC yet, (I have an old-but-still-good-sounding PS Audio DLIII mod Cullen IV, 10 years old, no clock, no DDC yet), and with a needed budget > 3,000 €, a Holo Spring 3 KTE might be a better option.

That is my question.
I did certainly not mean to offend anyone.

 

[Davidv100]

Awesome! Welcome to the club. Remarkable and an eye opener how a ~$400 device can elevate the already excellent Gustard X, R and A DACs' performance isn't it.

If they were competitive in internally clocked form (as most pro reviews assess them) with say $3k Dacs like the Venus or Spring 3 then surely they must sail past (in many respects) with the scale of the jump such a clock brings. Neither of those DACs being easily externally clockable of course.

Dear Jake,
This is a good example.
As you know, Pointus II and Venus II are easily externally clockable, including with Denafrips own Terra or Aether Clocks.
Regarding the internal clocks, the main difference between Pointus II and Venus II is that Venus II has a thermo-femto clock, whereas Pointus II clock has no thermal correction (femto for Pointus II, thermo-femto for Venus II). You do know that.

However, a very decent reviewer, "A British Audiophile" found that the difference was subtile, or less.
Not because the clock is not good, but because the Pointus II is already so good. I hope it is the same for A26/R26.
That is exactly my point.

In the same way, "GoldenSound" says that Holo May/Spring are so good natively that they do not need an external clock.
Again, this is what I would like to hear for A26/R26, not the opposite.

Basically, there is a misunderstanding here : I am trying to have the confirmation from owners that A26/R26 are so splendid natively without external clock.
But you both kill it saying that with an external clock, it is a world of a difference.

Whereas an external clock is not needed for Denafrips or Holo Audio gear.

Tbh, your feed-back does not help selling A26/R26. At all.
As your are saying that, without external clock, only say 66% (or whatever %) of the potential of R26/A26 is unleashed.

@milkdudd has I think a better grasp on what I am trying to understand, and says that, indeed, if I have to consider the global budget (ddc+dac+clock) other solutions might be worth considering (Thank you @milkdudd for this very valuable insight).

Source for Pointus II vs Venus II :
Source for external clock not needed on Holo May :

 

[Jake2]

Dear Jake,
This is a good example.
As you know, Pointus II and Venus II are easily externally clockable, including with Denafrips own Terra or Aether Clocks.
Regarding the internal clocks, the main difference between Pointus II and Venus II is that Venus II has a thermo-femto clock, whereas Pointus II clock has no thermal correction (femto for Pointus II, thermo-femto for Venus II). You do know that.

However, a very decent reviewer, "A British Audiophile" found that the difference was subtile, or less.
Not because the clock is not good, but because the Pointus II is already so good. I hope it is the same for A26/R26.
That is exactly my point.

In the same way, "GoldenSound" says that Holo May/Spring are so good natively that they do not need an external clock.

Again, there is a misunderstanding here : I am trying to have the confirmation from owners here that A26/R26 are so splendid natively without external clock.
But you both kill it saying that with an external clock, it is a world of a difference.

Whereas an external this is not needed for Denafrips or Holo Audio gear.

Tbh, your feed-back does not help selling A26/R26. At all.
As your are saying that, without external clock, only say 66% (or whatever %) of the potential of R26/A26 is unleashed.

Source for Pointus II vs Venus II :
Source for external clock not needed on Holo May :

Denafrips are a good example of how restricting to a non-standard clock input makes it more expensive to upgrade. I've no idea how good the Denafrips oscillators - in their DACs or clocks - are in absolute terms so I'd be very wary of extrapolating experiences with them beyond their DACs.

In terms of Holo claiming you don't need or wouldn't benefit from an external clock, with respect that's the standard line of almost every DAC manufacturer. And it's reasonable enough and true enough until it isn't.

If you are determined to view effective and affordable upgradability as a negative, including the firsthand very postive feedback of owners, perhaps it is indeed better for you to go the Holo route. Keeps things nice and simple.

I say again good luck with your decision and let us know how you go.

 

[HFFan]

Just like @Davidv100, I don't have the A26 yet but eyeing it as my next DAC because it is "affordable" but performs just as well or better than $3k and higher DACs.

However, after hearing that externals clocks are needed to unleash its full 100% potential, I am wondering what the missing link is without external clocks during actual music listening.

Which ones of the following improvements have the owners of both A26 and external clocks noticed, or for those without the A26 yet, expect in terms of improvements:

1. Bass (more? stronger? deeper? lower?)
2. Midrange (clearer? higher?)
3. High frequency (stronger? gentler? better roll-off?)
4. Imaging (same? wider? narrower? more precise?)
5. All of the above?!

I wish things like external clocks are easily available at local Bestbuy or store and I can easily go for a listening test of my A26 with or without it.

 

[Davidv100]

Just like @Davidv100, I don't have the A26 yet but eyeing it as my next DAC because it is "affordable" but performs just as well or better than $3k and higher DACs.

However, after hearing that externals clocks are needed to unleash its full 100% potential, I am wondering what the missing link is without external clocks during actual music listening.

Which ones of the following improvements have the owners of both A26 and external clocks noticed, or for those without the A26 yet, expect in terms of improvements:

1. Bass (more? stronger? deeper? lower?)
2. Midrange (clearer? higher?)
3. High frequency (stronger? gentler? better roll-off?)
4. Imaging (same? wider? narrower? more precise?)
5. All of the above?!

I wish things like external clocks are easily available at local Bestbuy or store and I can easily go for a listening test of my A26 with or without it.

Exactly.

 

[Dandoudou]

You are wrong to think that if a DAC has a 10 mHz external clock input, it means that its internal clock is poorer than a DAC that does not have such input.
Any DAC would benefit from an external clock, if it had a 10 mHz input. Having the input or not having it is only a choice of design.

Take this extreme high-end €55,000 DAC from Esoteric. Does it have an input for an external 10 mHz clock?
Sure it does:

https://www.alphahighend.be/produit/esoteric-grandioso-d1x/

 

[Davidv100]

Dear Dandoudou,

If you were the CEO of Esoteric
- selling 55k$ DACs...
- ...and clocks like the Grandioso G1X at 46k$,
- ...and you have obviously understood that your clients have infinitely deep pockets,

Would you forget to add an input to your 55k$ DAC, dedicated to add the pristine 46k$ clock, so that you can sell the global marvellous 55k$ + 46k& = 101 k$ solution to your very open minded clients ?

 

[Odezra]

@David

Highfive99,
Shall we agree that if a A26/R26 needs an external clock to make an outstanding difference, that means that you actually need A26/R26 + Clock which is > $3,000.

If the budget needed is indeed > $3,000 then it opens a realm of other competitive devices, as you say.

PS: I have changed “crap” by “sub-par” to be more neutral, and also because it is not my point at all. Indeed, what I mean, is that their clock is most probably good enough (femto = 10^-15), that an external clocks makes no audible difference. Otherwise there must be something fundamentally wrong.

Dear Jake,
This is a good example.
As you know, Pointus II and Venus II are easily externally clockable, including with Denafrips own Terra or Aether Clocks.
Regarding the internal clocks, the main difference between Pointus II and Venus II is that Venus II has a thermo-femto clock, whereas Pointus II clock has no thermal correction (femto for Pointus II, thermo-femto for Venus II). You do know that.

However, a very decent reviewer, "A British Audiophile" found that the difference was subtile, or less.
Not because the clock is not good, but because the Pointus II is already so good. I hope it is the same for A26/R26.
That is exactly my point.

In the same way, "GoldenSound" says that Holo May/Spring are so good natively that they do not need an external clock.
Again, this is what I would like to hear for A26/R26, not the opposite.

Basically, there is a misunderstanding here : I am trying to have the confirmation from owners here that A26/R26 are so splendid natively without external clock.
But you both kill it saying that with an external clock, it is a world of a difference.

Whereas an external this is not needed for Denafrips or Holo Audio gear.

Tbh, your feed-back does not help selling A26/R26. At all.
As your are saying that, without external clock, only say 66% (or whatever %) of the potential of R26/A26 is unleashed.

@milkdudd has I think a better grasp on what I am trying to understanding, and says that indeed, if I have to consider the global budget (ddc+dac+clock) other solutions might be worth considering (Thank you @milkdudd for this very valuable insight).

Source for Pointus II vs Venus II :
Source for external clock not needed on Holo May :

Ok - I can only comment for the r26 mostly not the a26 but hopefully this helps:

• the r26/a26 already has a good clock and an excellent clock synthesiser. All reports on the r26 are positive Sq wise, including those where they have opened up the box and inspected the hardware which should be enough to prove that it's a good dac as it is out of the box. Initial reports on A26 are similar.
• There are different conflicting messages on external 10mhz clocks. Goldensound, as one example, has some good reading on this, and doesn't think the trend towards external 10mhz clocks is great, but does think that master clocks can be beneficial. His measurements with the gear he tested saw some increased levels of noise / jitter with certain clocks. So there may be a tradeoff of increased accuracy for some increased jitter. If noise / jitter on your system is already excellently managed, maybe this is not a big deal, but there is still a trade-off. Others disagree on this topic. So the information set is a bit muddy.
• Others, including myself, have added the clock and claim there are benefits. For me, my benefits were small, and if I were listing out the tweaks I have done on my R26, this update would be towards the bottom of the list - adding just a few percent to soundstage and clarity / smoothness. The FMC tweak, as just one example, is a much bigger bang for buck tweak (which may be down to my house and my specific network). i have actually pulled out all my tweaks, and tested them 1 to 1 and cumulatively so am confident on that statement (for my system - not for others). That said, the caveat to my assessment is that I am testing with a modest system which you can see in my sig. Maybe the benefits of a clock are limited in my system. However, in either case, I am delighted and astounded frankly by what this system, as a whole, is producing, and am happy with the clock purchase. However, it's bang for buck performance is not as good as other things i have done.
• If you check out the L26 audiolab measurements for the R26, you'll see that FFT measurements have some side lobes which should be inaudible but can be cleaned up by a better clock. There is also some skeptisicm (as there generally is on this site) by that author that maybe the FFT performance is deliberate in order to sell the clock gustard also sells. Now the author offers no evidence for that. we don't know whether Gustards FFT performance here was a cost limitation, a design limitation, or something else. But this website clearly states that 'measurement wise ' (noting that this may or may not translate into audible results) - a better clock could be added to the r26
• If i was doing this again, i would skip the LHY Ock 1 clock, and i would go straight to the Lhy SW10 - getting a better clock and a FMC / Switch all in one, out of my router before the gustard, i think would be a better bang for buck investment than going for the cheaper LHY ock 1 clock. i think this would be a top notch tweak but I am only appraising this by the specs - i have not purchased it and it is a v expensive tweak but combines 2-3 pieces of functionality into one good unit.
• In either case - know that you are getting a fantastic dac (in the R26 case anyway - i cannot directly attest yet for the a26) for the pricepoint. The clock in my view is an optional add on, with gains to be had, but more like adding your favourite topping to your favourite ice cream. If you want to improve the potential of your dac, i personal think there are other things to focus on first (if you haven't already done so) such as good isolation on your speakers and equipment, room acoustics / treatments / room correction, great networking or ddcs depending on your dac input choice, good power management and cabling, and then clocks.

Others will have different views to mine, which is great, and i think goes to show that the benefit of different tweaks / add ons are v much system dependant.

 

[Dandoudou]

Dear Dandoudou,

If you were the CEO of Esoteric
- selling 55k$ DACs...
- ...and clocks like the Grandioso G1X at 46k$,
- ... and you have understood that your clients have infinitely deep pockets.

Would you forget to add an input on your 55k$ DAC dedicated to add the pristine 46k$ clock so that you can sell 55k$ + 46k& = 101 k$ the global marvellous solution to your very open minded clients ?

I don't think so, or I would be very disappointed.

So, would you ?

I brought an extreme example, but don't think that people who buy such staff are stupid just because they can afford it.

 

[Davidv100]

@David


Ok - I can only comment for the r26 mostly not the a26 but hopefully this helps:

• the r26/a26 already has a good clock and an excellent clock synthesiser. All reports on the r26 are positive Sq wise, including those where they have opened up the box and inspected the hardware which should be enough to prove that it's a good dac as it is out of the box. Initial reports on A26 are similar.
• There are different conflicting messages on external 10mhz clocks. Goldensound, as one example, has some good reading on this, and doesn't think the trend towards external 10mhz clocks is great, but does think that master clocks can be beneficial. His measurements with the gear he tested saw some increased levels of noise / jitter with certain clocks. So there may be a tradeoff of increased accuracy for some increased jitter. If noise / jitter on your system is already excellently managed, maybe this is not a big deal, but there is still a trade-off. Others disagree on this topic. So the information set is a bit muddy.
• Others, including myself, have added the clock and claim there are benefits. For me, my benefits were small, and if I were listing out the tweaks I have done on my R26, this update would be towards the bottom of the list - adding just a few percent to soundstage and clarity / smoothness. The FMC tweak, as just one example, is a much bigger bang for buck tweak (which may be down to my house and my specific network). i have actually pulled out all my tweaks, and tested them 1 to 1 and cumulatively so am confident on that statement (for my system - not for others). That said, the caveat to my assessment is that I am testing with a modest system which you can see in my sig. Maybe the benefits of a clock are limited in my system. However, in either case, I am delighted and astounded frankly by what this system, as a whole, is producing, and am happy with the clock purchase. However, it's bang for buck measurements is not as good as other things i have done.
• If you check out the L26 audiolab measurements for the R26, you'll see that FFT measurements have some side lobes which should be inaudible but can be cleaned up by a better clock. There is also some skeptisicm (as there generally is on this site) by that author that maybe the FFT performance is deliberate in order to sell the clock gustard also sells. Now the author offers no evidence for that. we don't know whether Gustards FFT performance here was a cost limitation, a design limitation, or something else. But this website clearly states that 'measurement wise ' (noting that this may or may not translate into audible results) - a better clock could be added to the r26
• If i was doing this again, i would skip the LHY Ock 1 clock, and i would go straight to the Lhy SW10 - getting a better clock and a FMC / Switch all in one, out of my router before the gustard, i think would be a better bang for buck investment than going for a cheaper clock. i think this would be a top notch tweak but I am only appraising this by the specs - i have not purchased it and it is a v expensive tweak but combines 2-3 pieces of functionality into one good unit.
• In either case - know that you are getting a fantastic dac (in the R26 case anyway - i cannot directly attest yet for the a26) for the pricepoint. The clock in my view is an optional add on, with gains to be had, but more like adding your favourite topping to your favourite ice cream. If you want to improve the potential of your dac, i personal think there are other things to focus on first (if you haven't already done so) such as good isolation on your speakers and equipment, great networking or ddcs depending on your dac input choice, good power management and cabling, and then clocks.

Others will have different views to mine, which is great, and i think goes to show that the benefit of different tweaks / add ons are v much system dependant.

Well, I am a 2023 newbie.
But for what I have gathered in a month here, I have a lot of respect for Odezra's pondered views.
Thank you Odezra, for taking the time to write this comprehensive answer.
This will end my questions about the Dac + Clock topic.

 

[HFFan]

If i was doing this again, i would skip the LHY Ock 1 clock, and i would go straight to the Lhy SW10 - getting a better clock and a FMC / Switch all in one, out of my router before the gustard, i think would be a better bang for buck investment than going for the cheaper LHY ock 1 clock. i think this would be a top notch tweak but I am only appraising this by the specs - i have not purchased it and it is a v expensive tweak but combines 2-3 pieces of functionality into one good unit.

This seems like a great new product to have everything in one housing instead of multiple pieces, with all components of the audio network being routed by this switch, not to mention its SPF port to allow direct fiber connection to an upstream router.

Speaking of switches and FMCs for the R26/A26, is it correct that if I can connect the following paths directly via fiber, then I won't really need FMCs?

1. Router (fiber port) -> Mac Studio (where Roon server is)
2. Router (fiber port) -> A26 (Roon endpoint)

 

[Odezra]

This seems like a great new product to have everything in one housing instead of multiple pieces, with all components of the audio network being routed by this switch, not to mention its SPF port to allow direct fiber connection to an upstream router.

Speaking of switches and FMCs for the R26/A26, is it correct that if I can connect the following paths directly via fiber, then I won't really need FMCs?

1. Router (fiber port) -> Mac Studio (where Roon server is)
2. Router (fiber port) -> A26 (Roon endpoint)

Not sure I understand your set up. I don't think the Mac Studio or the A26 has a fiber port? Assuming your router has 1 fiber port, you'd simply run 1 fiber box between the router and the A26 with that fiber box offering a conversion back to rj45 so you can feed an ethernet cable into the LAN socket of the A26.

Ideally - you would put that fiber box on a clean power supply (e.g. an excellent switch mode with good rfi/emi filtering or a good LPSU).

Another option, would be to place the LHY switch i mentioned in place of the fiber box. You'd have the benefit of running fiber from router to switch, and an ethernet cable and a bnc cable into the lan / clock inputs of the A26. You would also have the option of running an ethernet from the Fiber fed switch to your mac if you chose. Personally, i prefer the etherregan solution if you are connecting multiple devices, as you can connect a few devices into the 'a side' and have isolation / moat before sending the output signal through the 'b side' (the dac).