[Flm09]

I find R2R sounds too soft.
thus many think it’s more natural.

real instruments are not soft at all

You could be right! A bit slower a bit more musical tho? But I disagree on the instruments. My Forte IVs with Pegasus R2R does piano almost dead on. Good on treble like cymbals, violin, of course trumpets, great on voices and small drum kit. Good in acoustic guitar and less so on electric guitar probably due to lack of power as I am all tube guy.

 

[Flm09]

ive played piano, violin and mostly guitar for 40+ years.
im not bragging. i hope you don’t take it that way.
its just true. Most of those years are guitar

real instruments are loud af and project a lot.
they weren’t made to sound soft. They were made to be heard in large audiences usually.
if that makes sense.

I play alto sax! I agree live sound is brilliant and dynamic but never harsh. Also sound sweet and soft though. See how hard it is to reproduce live music. Voices are velvety smooth with air over a mike feed. Yes cymbals crash and are dynamic. My buddies play in a garage band. I don't want to brag either but Klipsch Heritage speakers from Forte IV and up in their line up sound more like real music than so many high end speakers. I would put my Fortes in same league as Stenheim Alumine three which are also musical.

 

[Nkam]

I play alto sax! I agree live sound is brilliant and dynamic but never harsh. Also sound sweet and soft though. See how hard it is to reproduce live music. Voices are velvety smooth with air over a mike feed. Yes cymbals crash and are dynamic. My buddies play in a garage band. I don't want to brag either but Klipsch Heritage speakers from Forte IV and up in their line up sound more like real music than so many high end speakers. I would put my Fortes in same league as Stenheim Alumine three which are also musical.

they are horn speakers that’s why.
horns usually replicate the live sound better than regular tweeters.

 

[Nkam]

I play alto sax! I agree live sound is brilliant and dynamic but never harsh. Also sound sweet and soft though. See how hard it is to reproduce live music. Voices are velvety smooth with air over a mike feed. Yes cymbals crash and are dynamic. My buddies play in a garage band. I don't want to brag either but Klipsch Heritage speakers from Forte IV and up in their line up sound more like real music than so many high end speakers. I would put my Fortes in same league as Stenheim Alumine three which are also musical.

oh I think live sound can get super harsh if not produced properly.
if it is amplified that is.
if you have microphones amplifying instruments and voices and the mixer guy isn’t doing his job well or the PA system sucks. The sound can be horrible. It’s an art to make great live amplified sound.

 

[Flm09]

oh I think live sound can get super harsh if not produced properly.
if it is amplified that is.
if you have microphones amplifying instruments and voices and the mixer guy isn’t doing his job well or the PA system sucks. The sound can be horrible. It’s an art to make great live amplified sound.

True! I'm not talking say in large concert but say in small club venue unamplified or in a small studio or even garage. For acoustic guitar I listen to the group City and Colour! The song "Waiting" recorded in a Church.

 

[bodiebill2]

I am revisting the idea to enable DSD in the following setup:

streamer > USB > Audio-GD DI20HE > I2S > Gustard A26

The A26 expects a 'flag' on pin 15 to let know whether PCM or DSD is sent. However the DI20HE does not send any signal on pin 15. In this setup the A26 always assumes that PCM is playing, so it means I can not play DSD this way. I do not want to discard the DI20HE as it does a great job.

Then I figured, what if I have a breakout DC cable at the source end of the I2S cable, to which I can apply 3.3 VDC to send this flag manually. Of course the breakout DC cable should also have a ground. Where to attach this?

I asked four custom cable manufacturers but only one would consider making such a cable (Phasure). None of them are sure whether it will work.

Before I dare to order something like this, I would welcome any views on this little potential project.

As it is still impossible for me to play DSD in the above setup -- with I2S and the DI20HE -- I thought I'd try DSD64 DoP with AES/EBU instead of I2S, that is:

streamer > USB > Audio-GD DI20HE > AES/EBU > Gustard A26

This works and allows me to listen to DSD using the DI20HE.

But now the strange thing: with this chain I am even able to play native DSD128 and the A26 shows that it receives this format. This surprises me as everywhere I looked it says that PCM192 and DSD64 DoP are the maximum possible for AES/EBU. I must add that sometimes at the start of Play there is just strange noise, but when I play some PCM and then try DSD128 again, it plays flawless throughout. And it sounds great. Here with AES/EBU the sound is slightly more veiled than with with I2S, however this may depend on the specific digital cables used.

Did anyone else play native DSD128 through AES/EBU?

 

[milkdudd]

External clocks are most useless thing in this hobby.
Another source of noise in the signal chain.

About a week back I read this and mentioned that I would do some A-B listening and report back. Sorry but I have to 100% disagree with you, at least on the waste of money issue. As far as adding noise, I can say if it does I don't hear it. And if in the worst case a device adds a little bit of bad, along with a whole lot of good, it's still a winning proposition in my book. As a reminder my system uses a C18/U18/A22 combination with gustard C2 BNC cable and blue jeans i2s cable. All listening is with the Low-D Short filter setting, as I find that so good I don't intend to ever deviate from it. For the record I still find the square wave output from the clock makes by far the most difference in sound quality. Although the sine wave output does bring an improvement it's just not as much (to my ears at least). I'm not as eloquent in describing things as some of you but I'll try. The the words vivid, vibrant and focused come to mind. Most songs have several things going at one time and to me the clock brings sharper focus to each sound source at any given time. I know it's an overused term but it sounds more like live music to me. A touch of reverb-ish effect on each instrument or vocal. Things like cymbals, tambourines, acoustic guitars and backing vocals which are usually in the background work their way forward and sound crystal clear. Occasionally I'll hear something of very low volume that I didn't hear at all before. Some may consider this to be bright sounding (although I personally can't imagine that) so I keep an open mind that what I like might not be what everybody else likes. So I suggest anybody considering buying an external clock purchase from someone with a return policy. In case the sound you like is different than what I like, or in the unlikely event that I'm just full of crap. Cheers

Edit:
I should have also mentioned that I'm listening with Dan Clark Audio Ether 2 headphones with a Violectric V281 amp/preamp with DH Labs solid silver conductor interconnects between dac and preamp. I consider my system very transparent. However when listening in my stereo room it backs up my findings

 

[Flm09]

they are horn speakers that’s why.
horns usually replicate the live sound better than regular tweeters.

Yes I agree! I can tell you know your stuff!

 

[Vijay74]

About a week back I read this and mentioned that I would do some A-B listening and report back. Sorry but I have to 100% disagree with you, at least on the waste of money issue. As far as adding noise, I can say if it does I don't hear it. And if in the worst case a device adds a little bit of bad, along with a whole lot of good, it's still a winning proposition in my book. As a reminder my system uses a C18/U18/A22 combination with gustard C2 BNC cable and blue jeans i2s cable. All listening is with the Low-D Short filter setting, as I find that so good I don't intend to ever deviate from it. For the record I still find the square wave output from the clock makes by far the most difference in sound quality. Although the sine wave output does bring an improvement it's just not as much (to my ears at least). I'm not as eloquent in describing things as some of you but I'll try. The the words vivid, vibrant and focused come to mind. Most songs have several things going at one time and to me the clock brings sharper focus to each sound source at any given time. I know it's an overused term but it sounds more like live music to me. A touch of reverb-ish effect on each instrument or vocal. Things like cymbals, tambourines, acoustic guitars and backing vocals which are usually in the background work their way forward and sound crystal clear. Occasionally I'll hear something of very low volume that I didn't hear at all before. Some may consider this to be bright sounding (although I personally can't imagine that) so I keep an open mind that what I like might not be what everybody else likes. So I suggest anybody considering buying an external clock purchase from someone with a return policy. In case the sound you like is different than what I like, or in the unlikely event that I'm just full of crap. Cheers

Edit:
I should have also mentioned that I'm listening with Dan Clark Audio Ether 2 headphones with a Violectric V281 amp/preamp with DH Labs solid silver conductor interconnects between dac and preamp. I consider my system very transparent. However when listening in my stereo room it backs up my findings

Thanks for devoting your time and come back with your findings. I have also become more interested in trying out external clock. However, statements like below make me bit worried in subjective audio world:

Occasionally I'll hear something of very low volume that I didn't hear at all before

Does it imply external clock results in better resolution? Is it really a good thing? If music composer/director/artist would have wanted us to hear such audio, they would have placed another microphone there. If its not audible on most gadgets/gears, it seems more like a very low volume music noise to me. May be delayed/reflected sound that is being enhanced here? Don't know. Am just thinking out loud.

 

[milkdudd]

Thanks for devoting your time and come back with your findings. I have also become more interested in trying out external clock. However, statements like below make me bit worried in subjective audio world:


Does it imply external clock results in better resolution? Is it really a good thing? If music composer/director/artist would have wanted us to hear such audio, they would have placed another microphone there. If its not audible on most gadgets/gears, it seems more like a very low volume music noise to me. May be delayed/reflected sound that is being enhanced here? Don't know. Am just thinking out loud.

I wouldn't worry about that. I'm not talking about noises. I'm talking about instruments or background vocals that just aren't very loud on the recording. Sometimes background vocals that sounded like one person become clearly audible as two or more singers harmonizing. I would compare it to getting better equipment as our audio budgets increase and technology improves. Previously inaudible nuances get through to your ears, such as being able to make out the words of a song that you couldn't quite understand before. Several songs on Peter Gabriel's first solo album come to mind. For decades I couldn't understand what he was saying in many of the songs, now it's rare there's a single word I can't clearly make out. To be clear I'm not just referring to an external clock, but going up the food chain with better audio equipment in general

 

[bodiebill2]

As it is still impossible for me to play DSD in the above setup -- with I2S and the DI20HE -- I thought I'd try DSD64 DoP with AES/EBU instead of I2S, that is:

streamer > USB > Audio-GD DI20HE > AES/EBU > Gustard A26

This works and allows me to listen to DSD using the DI20HE.

But now the strange thing: with this chain I am even able to play native DSD128 and the A26 shows that it receives this format. This surprises me as everywhere I looked it says that PCM192 and DSD64 DoP are the maximum possible for AES/EBU. I must add that sometimes at the start of Play there is just strange noise, but when I play some PCM and then try DSD128 again, it plays flawless throughout. And it sounds great. Here with AES/EBU the sound is slightly more veiled than with with I2S, however this may depend on the specific digital cables used.

Did anyone else play native DSD128 through AES/EBU?

Just wanted to add that I just learned that the DI20HE converts all incoming DSD to DoP for the spdif, AES/EBU and optical outputs, so that partly explains the results above.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Just wanted to add that I just learned that the DI20HE converts all incoming DSD to DoP for the spdif, AES/EBU and optical outputs, so that partly explains the results above.

I don't think this is necessarily so. I think it does pure DSD.

As it is still impossible for me to play DSD in the above setup -- with I2S and the DI20HE -- I thought I'd try DSD64 DoP with AES/EBU instead of I2S, that is:

streamer > USB > Audio-GD DI20HE > AES/EBU > Gustard A26

This works and allows me to listen to DSD using the DI20HE.

But now the strange thing: with this chain I am even able to play native DSD128 and the A26 shows that it receives this format. This surprises me as everywhere I looked it says that PCM192 and DSD64 DoP are the maximum possible for AES/EBU. I must add that sometimes at the start of Play there is just strange noise, but when I play some PCM and then try DSD128 again, it plays flawless throughout. And it sounds great. Here with AES/EBU the sound is slightly more veiled than with with I2S, however this may depend on the specific digital cables used.

Did anyone else play native DSD128 through AES/EBU?

I have mostly SACD rips, only a very few 128s. AES/EBU has enough bandwidth to handle DSD128. And my foobar2000 is set up for pure DSD using Kingwa's package.

 

[bodiebill2]

I don't think this is necessarily so. I think it does pure DSD.

Yes, the DI20HE accepts native DSD, but I was told by Magna Hifi that it outputs this as native DSD via I2S but as DoP via the other outputs. Which makes sense as these outputs (spdif, AES/EBU and optical) can only transport PCM coded streams.

AES/EBU has enough bandwidth to handle DSD128.

Most manuals say the maximum for AES/EBU is DSD64 DoP, however apparently sometimes DSD128 also works via AES/EBU, provided that it is DoP.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Yes, the DI20HE accepts native DSD, but I was told by Magna Hifi that it outputs this as native DSD via I2S but as DoP via the other outputs. Which makes sense as these outputs (spdif, AES/EBU and optical) can only transport PCM coded streams.

I tried to check just now but I found an anomaly regarding the MC-3+ and ASIOProxy is difficult to beat into correct behavior. Right now I am not sure whether this info is correct or not.

 

[sajunky]

Yes, the DI20HE accepts native DSD, but I was told by Magna Hifi that it outputs this as native DSD via I2S but as DoP via the other outputs. Which makes sense as these outputs (spdif, AES/EBU and optical) can only transport PCM coded streams.

99.99%.

DoP is there, as MS Windows do not support native DSD in their sound system, the same the latest MAC OS. And the S/PDIF family, of course.

From a DDC perspective passing through DoP and a native formats over I2S would be an extreme simplification affecting jitter. Magna Hifi do not specify clearly enough whether conversion from DoP to native take place on DI-20, but I am sure it does. A native format is exactly what ladder accept. If DDC passed DoP without conversion, it would complicate clock synchronisation on a DAC, as bit rate of DoP and a native DSD is different. It is much easier to do conversion on the DDC, as it is a place where master clock is created. Therefore my rating as above.