[ramicio]

But then again I'm not some old lady with a flimsy ass purse either, haha.

 

[marvin]

Quote:

Except the fact that the first guy to get shot at clearly reacted to being hit by SOMETHING.  And the papers RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM got hit.  Are we going to have another case here of a MAGIC BULLET?  His form isn't that sloppy despite using only one hand to hold the gun.  People who miss from a few feet away are people who hold the gun sideways with a limp wrist.  This guy is holding the gun tight and is a big dude.  The one lady tries to knock the gun out of his hand and she seemed like a fly hitting an elephant.  Movies are stages for tons of gun shots going off without anyone getting hit.  In real life people make shots more accurately than in fiction.

Watch a full length video to get an idea of how terrible of a shooter he is. He gets one indifferently aimed shot off with an exaggerated follow through movement then promptly inadvertently discharges a round into the floor in front of him as he's bringing the gun back up. He doesn't get any other shots off until he's been hit, then he stops bothering to aim and just goes cyclic. No, it's not surprising that no one gets hit other than him.
 
Also, nothing hits the paper other than expanding gas. There's also no visual evidence that man in the red that gets hit by anything. Looks to me like it's a startle reaction in response to the shock and a lot of stumbling to get out of the chair before crawling away behind the desk.
 
Quote:

That's the kind of sheep talk that will lead to a police state country.  If you see someone in trouble intervene.  It takes more balls to intervene and get your ass beat than it takes to be that jerk-off doing the wrong.  This is the kind of talk of people who value their own lives over anyone else's.  That woman was brave.  You would be the person to cower under a desk.  Stay out of my way when this world goes downhill and society, and I, lash out.

Sure she's brave. But she's also dumb, and dumb gets you killed.

 

[ramicio]

There are other shots being fired that aren't his before he goes down.  He is terrible but the first shot he takes was the best one and I think the guy just got hit by a blank.  She's fighting dumbness with dumbness, but so what, the guy is there for specific blood, and he lets her go.  Bravery is bravery whether it's stupid or not, she should be commended.

 

[ls20]

Quote:

Except the fact that the first guy to get shot at clearly reacted to being hit by SOMETHING.  And the papers RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM got hit.  Are we going to have another case here of a MAGIC BULLET?  His form isn't that sloppy despite using only one hand to hold the gun.  People who miss from a few feet away are people who hold the gun sideways with a limp wrist.  This guy is holding the gun tight and is a big dude.  The one lady tries to knock the gun out of his hand and she seemed like a fly hitting an elephant.  Movies are stages for tons of gun shots going off without anyone getting hit.  In real life people make shots more accurately than in fiction.

there are plenty of examples of people missing at virtually point blank range.  chalk it up to lack of training, nerves/adrenaline, uncertainty of intent, etc.  i put my time in at the range, but i can see how most people can fail to hit target.
 
heres an example...magic bullet here, too?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pie-ojbJWec
 
reports are his mag was mixed with both blanks and live rounds.  the first target's chair was reported to have bullet holes on it.
 
re:  the heroism of the lady... utterly stupid.  the guy couldve (and he likely is) been unstable / wanted to be threatening / etc.  i dont advocate meek evasion... but rather calculated moves.  if one is trained to disarm, one should make attempt to disarm.  her feeble swinging of the purse could very well have been the action that tips an attacker "over the edge". 
 

 

[ramicio]

Umm...the guy is unstable and was looking for blood.  You don't see someone with a gun in public and expect nothing is going to happen of it.  Jeez, how many people are so scared of everything anymore to even make an attempt to disarm someone?  People training to disarm don't disarm actual criminals.  If the person is someone who is trained at stuff, then yea, it would be stupid to try.  Things reported in mass media are often not true or are skewed, to instill fear in the public.  I'd say it was all fake because if you are going to die you don't sit there are argue with a psycho.  You don't swing a purse at some big guy like that.  If you think you are going to die you fight for your life.  If you are fighting with adrenaline then you can be the scrawniest POS and beat up someone many times your size.

 

[DirtMcgirt]

wait...he was shot by WHO?

 

[eugenius]

LOL, that woman is the stu-pid. She doesn't have enough brains to be brave ...

 

[ls20]

Quote:

Umm...the guy is unstable and was looking for blood.  You don't see someone with a gun in public and expect nothing is going to happen of it.
armed persons have been talked down by negotiators before
  Jeez, how many people are so scared of everything anymore to even make an attempt to disarm someone?  
who in that video is in a position to react to him - the officials obstructed behind the desk? others so far away theyre off-camera? 
People training to disarm don't disarm actual criminals.
what ?
If the person is someone who is trained at stuff, then yea, it would be stupid to try.
what?
Things reported in mass media are often not true or are skewed, to instill fear in the public.
off-topic
 I'd say it was all fake
wow, really...
because if you are going to die you don't sit there are argue with a psycho.  
see response #1
You don't swing a purse at some big guy like that.
exactly our point.
 If you think you are going to die you fight for your life.  If you are fighting with adrenaline then you can be the scrawniest POS and beat up someone many times your size.
 

there is a lack of coherency in what you say.  simply put, in that situation--given an opportunity to leave--id rather you not swing your purse or throw your tin-foil hat at the perp, while i walk out

 

[ramicio]

Yeah, a school board chairman is an official negotiator...
 
When a cop "trains" to disarm a criminal they don't do so in an actual life and death situation.  Someone who is "trained" acts as the criminal and disarms themselves if the technique is done "right."
 
The person who shot the nut is a school security guard, there the whole time, and waiting to shoot until the nut shoots?  That's what seems outrageous, and the fact the chairman attempted to negotiate, and the fact that any normal citizen was just ordered to get out of the room...it then becomes a controlled situation.  The media stuff I say is only off-topic to the people who make no attempt to dispute what is told to them by the mass media, and are just spoon-fed crap their whole lives and find it delicious.

 

[Maverickmonk]

Quote:

That's the kind of sheep talk that will lead to a police state country.  If you see someone in trouble intervene.  It takes more balls to intervene and get your ass beat than it takes to be that jerk-off doing the wrong.  This is the kind of talk of people who value their own lives over anyone else's.  That woman was brave.  You would be the person to cower under a desk.  Stay out of my way when this world goes downhill and society, and I, lash out.

Agreed. That woman is my hero of the day. Sure, her attempt didn't work, but she (yes she) obviously has more balls than I'd wager 95% of the population has. I can only hope and pray that if I'm in a similar situation I have the stones to do the same, but to claim that I would as I sit here on my chair with my laptop would be sheer idiocy. One thing I can see from this video however is that just because one person has the guts to take put the wackjob on the defensive, doesn't mean they can expect help from the rest. The situation probably would have been ended there if someone else had joined in with chair/breifcase/laptop, even a strong lunge with a ballpoint pen can do some damage, but again, I'm armchairing.

 

 

[ramicio]

People just need to learn to join together and fight instead of relying on one brave person.  A criminal will think twice about continuing if a mob of people are charging them, rather than a single person attacking them.  Society is so divided just because of personal opinions and beliefs.  It's like it's being done on purpose to divide us so we all won't want to join together and fight if something happens.

 

[marvin]

 
Quote:

Yeah, a school board chairman is an official negotiator...
 
...
 
 and the fact the chairman attempted to negotiate, and the fact that any normal citizen was just ordered to get out of the room...it then becomes a controlled situation.

Hostage release is normal in situations where the hostage taker feels he can't keep every hostage under control. Since Clay Duke clearly has a grudge with just the board members and clearly does not want to kill women, it's not surprising he would only take the male board members hostage. Having a hostage talk to the hostage taker until negotiators arrive is also normal, and is one of the more effective survival techniques. While Husfelt isn't perfect, he manages to get the talking down to lower levels pretty quickly.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ramicio /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
When a cop "trains" to disarm a criminal they don't do so in an actual life and death situation.  Someone who is "trained" acts as the criminal and disarms themselves if the technique is done "right."

 
No one trains in a life and death situation. Better training tries to simulate the sort of adrenaline dump and resulting physiological effects that occurs in such a situation, but even then, you're not going to reach the urgency of the real thing. Still, even at reduced speed with a compliant sparring partner, training is hardly useless. It shows the trainee the range of effective actions, and the conditions necessary to allow them to succeed. If Ginger Littleton had even a bit of training, she would have realized that she did not have an effective method of taking Clay out and would not have acted.
 
Quote:

/img/forum/go_quote.gif

The person who shot the nut is a school security guard, there the whole time, and waiting to shoot until the nut shoots?  That's what seems outrageous,

 
Mike Jones is in a bad situation. Up until the point where Clay starts shooting, there's no guarantee that there's going to be any shooting at all. There's the strong possibility that Clay's just up there to rant. In that case, Clay will eventually calm himself down and get in a situation where he will surrender to the police. Also, if Mike is located at the back of the room like he seems to be, he's pretty far from Clay and has a backstop full of people. While you may be comfortable sending rounds downrange in that situation before any shooting has started, many (quite rationally) aren't. Unless Mike gets a good CNS hit on Clay before Clay can respond, there's a chance that Clay will be able to incapacitate Mike and kill the school board members. Also note that police will often play the same waiting game in hostage situations unless there's an active shooter. What Mike does is in no way out of the ordinary.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Maverickmonk /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Agreed. That woman is my hero of the day. Sure, her attempt didn't work, but she (yes she) obviously has more balls than I'd wager 95% of the population has.

Her attempt was stupid in every possible way. She had a very low percentage chance of succeeding and only served to escalate the situation while putting herself at extreme risk. She, and everyone else in the room, is very lucky that Clay had stronger inhibitions against killing women than the did against killing men.
 
Quote:

People just need to learn to join together and fight instead of relying on one brave person.  A criminal will think twice about continuing if a mob of people are charging them, rather than a single person attacking them.  Society is so divided just because of personal opinions and beliefs.  It's like it's being done on purpose to divide us so we all won't want to join together and fight if something happens.

People generally don't fight back until the violence starts because compliance with VCAs works pretty well when it comes to maintaining bodily integrity.

 

[ramicio]

Wait until the perp shoots is just nuts IMO.  If someone waves a gun and creates panic they should be killed immediately.  Once you endanger other people's lives like that I believe you should have no rights.  Situations so blatant like that shouldn't even be considered innocent until proven guilty (had he survived.)  If someone enters my home, gun or not (there's no way of knowing) and threatens me I will shoot them.  I will shoot them if they run away.  It's my property and I think I should have the right to protect it and punish those to break in.  If a perp isn't man enough to enter a home and consider that they might get shot, and then runs away, too bad, I guess they weren't so tough after all, and examples should be made.

 

[marvin]

Quote:

Wait until the perp shoots is just nuts IMO.  If someone waves a gun and creates panic they should be killed immediately.  Once you endanger other people's lives like that I believe you should have no rights.

Whether you think it's nuts or not is irrelevant. Creating a cordon and waiting for negotiators/SWAT has long been the standard operating procedure. While more modern thinking has been leaning towards the use of immediate action to head off such situations, doing so without exposing the responder and the potential victims to extreme risk requires a high level of training and the appropriate equipment. A retired police detective with a just a pistol and no protective gear doesn't meet those requirements.
 
Quote:

 If someone enters my home, gun or not (there's no way of knowing) and threatens me I will shoot them.  I will shoot them if they run away.  It's my property and I think I should have the right to protect it and punish those to break in.  If a perp isn't man enough to enter a home and consider that they might get shot, and then runs away, too bad, I guess they weren't so tough after all, and examples should be made.

 
Shooting a fleeing burglar is about as brain dead stupid as it gets.

 

[ramicio]

What is all this spewing about needing trained officials?  Like they are so above and beyond everyone and are the only ones that should be trusted to make decisions in this world?  How can anyone even condemn that lady for what she did, or condemn anyone who isn't "trained" to try to take care of a situation.  They are willing to give their life to save others and that deserves respect.  What protective gear is there that is needed?  A vest is going to prevent you from getting shot in the chest.  Your head is still open to getting shot, which is more lethal and instant death compared to a chest shot, so protection doesn't matter when it's a situation that should end quickly.  How is shooting a fleeing burglar brain dead?  I think it's brain dead to not care about yourself, family, or possessions to just let a robber run off with them and think the police are going to do anything to get them back.  Even if they didn't manage to take anything they still should be shot.  Crime is getting worse because burglars and robbers know gun laws and laws regarding when you can even shoot someone are getting more strict, so they just know they will most likely get away with it without dying, and they are such a POS already that they have nothing to lose either way.  People need to be made examples of and if more people start fighting and actually take matters into their own hands, the bad people will start thinking twice before crossing society.