Guide me in my quest for passive speakers from scratch

[shrimants]

I have a project that i've been brewing up in my head. i want to make a pair of 4-way passive floor standing speakers.

So far I am in the "research" phase of the "Research and development" step.

I'm thinking I will have a ribbon driver as a tweeter (though a "normal" tweeter would be fine i guess), a 3 inch kevlar woofer, a 6 inch kevlar woofer, and either 10 or 12 inch subwoofer in each tower. (probably 12)

The subwoofer will be isolated in its own sealed chamber at the bottom of the whole speaker. I would like it to be front firing, but down firing is OK too (i just havent done research on down firing).

I still need to research cabinet interior design and "order". I keep seing things about 3rd order and 4th order cabinet designs.

I have been reading about active and passive crossovers. I read that active crossovers are usually preferred unless you have a VERY simple design (which this is not). I know that active crossovers mean I'll have to have one that either has amps built in or have an individual amp for each "line" of the crossover. I'm not 100% sure about this info. I was thinking of using either the UltraDrive or the SuperX. One for each speaker in 4-way mono configuration. http://www.behringer.com/EN/Category/Signal-Processors.aspx?s=E150 I figured that would serve as a temporary solution and I could build my own crossover/amp unit for each speaker as time passes for even more upgrady-ness. It would be amazing to incorporate a tube amp or 4 into this somehow.

i was thinking MDF for the cabinet design with some sort of nice polished wood paneling like oak or mahogany.

I just have no idea what to start reading and understanding because the articles I see are either way too simplified or way over my head and lacking any sort of formatting to boot.

 

[Uncle Erik]

That's a big project.
 
If you don't have Vance Dickason's "Louspeaker Cookbook," that's the place to start.  I'd also recommend reading through the Zaph|Audio, Troels Gravesen and Linkwitz Lab websites.  They know what they're talking about.
 
Not to scare you off, but even these guys spend a lot of time developing speakers and there's still trial and error involved.  Balancing the drivers, crossover and cabinet size/shape is tricky.
 
I thought about designing speakers, too, but realized that there would be a lot of learning and work, while there are already proven designs out there by people who know a lot more than I do.  It's easier to build one of those and the results are guaranteed to be good if you take care.
 
I don't know your budget, but consider Linkwitz' Orion.  The drivers are about $2k, they have an active passover, and you can turn them into 4-way speakers with the Thor subwoofers.

 

[shrimants]

I was thinking I would put a total of 2-4 grand into these total. If I could find a nice DIY kit that included letting me build the crossover myself rather than assembling the whole thing like an Ikea project, I'd probably do that instead. The ones I'd like to design are meant to be an end-game set without having to buy 15,000 dollar B&W with a 15000 dollar amp to drive them. I'm looking for nice hobbies in this scene that dont require me to simply blow X amount of money for a finished product, if that makes sense. I used to be into model cars but my parents never bought me paints. I like to play with legos but my parents never bought me many sets. I tried lego mindstorms but our computer could barely run the software, and it was not at all what I was expecting.

Basically, I'd like to have a hobby that ends in something functional, and i feel that this is the right thing to do (unless you can point me in a different direction that is more cost and time effective, but yields a functioning result).

I looked at Liinkwitz's crossover thing and it just mind-melted me. theres a lot of concepts I have absolutely no clue about.

i dunno, I've had attempts from at least 7 other people today alone to scare me off and yours is the only post that has been successful in this regard. The people you linked me to have WAY more knowledge than I do and now I kind of feel like unless I devote many years to the finer points of audio engineering and electrical engineering, I'll end up simply blowing all my money on something that sounds like crap with no hope of sounding better. darn you, uncle erik. now I have to find a new hobby.

 

[Uncle Erik]

To be fair, not that many people fully understand what Linkwitz is doing.  But the guy knows his stuff and backs up everything amazingly well.
 
Give the Orion more thought.  You can pull it off with $4k, including the amps.
 
The drivers are $2k, and the crossover boards are $300.  They're not that hard to stuff with about $300 of parts.  You can buy a flat pack for the cabinets for $1,200.  I think I'm going to have a local cabinet shop rough them out of MDF.  I can pull that off for about $200, since they charge me 50¢ a cut.  I'm going to make a full-sized cardboard template for the sides and rough them out with a jigsaw then clamp them together to sand them all even.
 
Fortunately, I have a professional spraygun and assorted equipment, so I'll spring for $100 of good car enamel.  Though there will be a lot of Bondo and primer prepwork.
 
The amps I bought are Adcom GFA-2535 4-channel amps.  About $200-$250 each used.
 
There will probably be another $200 of screws, connectors and other bits.
 
But I'm reasonably sure I can pull these off under $4k.
 
Read the reviews - these are serious End Game speakers.  I did a lot of research and didn't find anything better, especially at their price.  Not cheap, but they seem wonderful and designed by one of the best minds around.  Read through the Orion/Pluto forum and you'll see that a lot of knowledgeable people have built these and that SL takes a keen interes in getting the most out of them.
 
As for the ofher speakers I've built, I don't think I missed much by not designing them.  They were fun challenges and really rewarding.  So go build some.  And take a hard look at the Orion.

 

[shrimants]

Yeah, i'll definately build them eventually. Its just that considering their price and my college student status and 10x10 foot living space, I cannot justify these in any way shape or form just now. i'll defintaely be building these rather than spending 15K on B&W's....

What other speakers have you designed and built? Is there a passive kit/design that comes to mind for 1000, final cost? I would really like to build a set of passive speakers, and then build my own class a dual mono tube (or hybrid) amp to power them. For 1000 + amp cost I think I could probably save up enough between now and 2013. I'm OK with either floor standing or bookshelf models, though I'd prefer floor standing because i already have Audioengine's A5's as darn good bookshelf speakers.

 

[splaz]

Like I said in your other thread. I think you need to get your feet wet before you go jumping into the deep end.

 

If you're willing to invest that much money into it, why not take on a much smaller project, as I suggested a set of bookshelf speakers and a gainclone or similar ?

 

An analogy would be that you're about to completely restore a classic car (let's make it a Datsun 240Z), however you have never touched a spanner.

 

You may get lucky, I can learn pretty well from 'deep ending' things, however making mistakes and trial and error are some of the only ways to learn when you are completely out of your depth.

 

I just think such an ambitious project is better undertaken with more experience under your belt... that experience leading up to it should make for a better end result and may even change what you want to achieve in future.

 

No idea about speakers though really, not good enough at woodworking myself and cost has always been a factor for me. Headphones and amps are significantly better value for money...   except on head-fi.

 

[Avro_Arrow]

Have you visited Solen?
They have drivers, books, kits, crossover parts and design services.

 

[shrimants]

@Splaz: Yeah, you bring up a good point. I wasnt terribly into those speakers because they dont look like they'll sound as good or better than my audioengine A5's, and I dont want to build some audio equipment and have it sit around gathering dust. If i could find a kit that uses some nice kevlar or at least good looking drivers rather than the obviously budget quality drivers of this project I'd be all in. I just feel like building a speaker kit like this is a tad bit too easy if they simply give you a manual like ikea and tell you to put the whole thing together, especially if the quality of product that comes out is poor enough not to be used.

The only logical use for these I could see is to build these and an amplifier, and then gift them to my GF of sister, who both dont have nice speakers whatsoever.

@avro_arrow: I'll check them out, thanks.
EDIT: the Eton 2.2 or 11.2 looks like a really nice middle-level project, now that I look at it. It seems that it come with all parts and such necessary (except the cabinet material?). I have enough experience that I would get done building a kit like the ones suggested by Splaz too quickly and learn close to nothing except from researching their choice in crossover parts. This kit seems like it is complex enough to make me think a little, and seems like it might actually sound better than the A5's, or at the very least put out more bass than the A5's without a sub. I'll keep doing more research and whatnot but for now I'd say this is my current shareholder.

 

[Avro_Arrow]

You are correct, the kits come with all parts except the cabinet.
Most of the designs have pretty simple to construct cabinets.
If you don't have the ability to make the cabinet yourself, you may be
able to find a local club or wood working shop that can cut the
parts for you or make you an assembled cabinet.
 
If you want something even more exotic, check these out.
They are a DIY version of the speakers I own.
 

Edit: spell check...
Quote:

@Splaz: Yeah, you bring up a good point. I wasnt terribly into those speakers because they dont look like they'll sound as good or better than my audioengine A5's, and I dont want to build some audio equipment and have it sit around gathering dust. If i could find a kit that uses some nice kevlar or at least good looking drivers rather than the obviously budget quality drivers of this project I'd be all in. I just feel like building a speaker kit like this is a tad bit too easy if they simply give you a manual like ikea and tell you to put the whole thing together, especially if the quality of product that comes out is poor enough not to be used.
The only logical use for these I could see is to build these and an amplifier, and then gift them to my GF of sister, who both dont have nice speakers whatsoever.
@avro_arrow: I'll check them out, thanks.
EDIT: the Eton 2.2 or 11.2 looks like a really nice middle-level project, now that I look at it. It seems that it come with all parts and such necessary (except the cabinet material?). I have enough experience that I would get done building a kit like the ones suggested by Splaz too quickly and learn close to nothing except from researching their choice in crossover parts. This kit seems like it is complex enough to make me think a little, and seems like it might actually sound better than the A5's, or at the very least put out more bass than the A5's without a sub. I'll keep doing more research and whatnot but for now I'd say this is my current shareholder.

 

 

[shrimants]

That looks effing cool...What was the total build cost for those? If its 1000 or less I'll totally try those out too.

 

[Avro_Arrow]

You can write to him at the address on his page, I've heard he is quite approachable.
 
Quote:

That looks effing cool...What was the total build cost for those? If its 1000 or less I'll totally try those out too.

 

 

[Avro_Arrow]

If you really want to challenge your woodworking skills...

 

[Avro_Arrow]

And if you liked those, Nelson Pass never does anything small...

 

[shrimants]

Lol that nelson pass thing is wayyyy over the top for something I could build. thats one for when i have a house or something. The electrostats are nice, in that if I build floor standing speakers and then the electrostats afterwards, I can use the electrostats as my far left and far right, use the floor standing as left front and right front, and build the center channel that goes with them and a couple cabinets for rear. Then I can start investing in SACD's and/or DVD Audio. maybe even blu ray.

 

[liamstrain]

Doing some digging around, I'm now interested in some Voigt pipes for a first DIY speaker... if I can convince my wife that we have room for them instead of the little Polk 3300 sub/sats.
 
They can be so pretty too...