[AnalogJ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGreen /img/forum/go_quote.gif Agreed. Everything I am reading here sounds like he is acclimatising to the sound, rather than the headphone itself changing its sonic characteristics.

You can say that, but I know it to be different. My ears are trained to hear stuff like this. I conduct orchestras. When I'm looking for a singer to change or improve a way he or she is phrasing a line, when I get that change, is it only because I'm getting used to his/her singing?

I'm trained to listen for nuance. For the person who says he can hear stuff he hadn't been able to hear before, this could be a result of different things. If it's a new recording that he's not used to hearing, he could be hearing new things in the music he hadn't heard before as he listens more and more. On the other hand, if it's music he's quite familiar with, and THEN he hears changes two weeks later from initial listening, then it's possible that the headphones have evolved.

When I go into my local hifi shop (and I don't go in very often), I can immediately tell which speakers or which CD player has not had much breaking in. With speakers lacking break-in, they're stiff, a bit opaque and tend to lack dynamic slam. The same for a CD player. It may be 6 months between visits, but I can pick out something that hasn't had much use since being installed in the store. When I was first auditioning headphones, I could tell from the musical stiffness which headphones hadn't had much use, too. Every time.

 

[aimlink]

The SR325is were partially responsible for my selling my HD650's. After listening for a while to the SR325is and finding it more and more pleasant, I listened to the HD650's and it was like I was listening to it from behind a door. The veiled sound that I had never heard before was now there. It was then I realized why I was enjoying the SR325is more and why it was sounding more 'natural'.

I'm not at all saying that burn-in doesn't play a role here, but as with all things, there's rarely an extreme situation, i.e., all burn-in with no acclimatization, or, all acclimatization with no burn-in.

AnalogJ, no matter your credentials and hearing ability, you're still human.

I'm skeptic.

 

[zombi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif The SR325is were partially responsible for my selling my HD650's. After listening for a while to the SR325is and finding it more and more pleasant, I listened to the HD650's and it was like I was listening to it from behind a door. The veiled sound that I had never heard before was now there. It was then I realized why I was enjoying the SR325is more and why it was sounding more 'natural'. I'm not at all saying that burn-in doesn't play a role here, but as with all things, there's rarely an extreme situation, i.e., all burn-in with no acclimatization, or, all acclimatization with no burn-in. AnalogJ, no matter your credentials and hearing ability, you're still human. I'm skeptic.

Thats cool! Interesting how people can have such varying experiences. I came from the 325i's and when I got my HD650s it was perfect. Less in my face, more relaxed. Just goes to show how much of this is taste.
As for burn in I am skeptical as well unless I see some solid data otherwise. Perception is often the least reliable way to judge something.

 

[aimlink]

As to acclimatization, I'm finding that I prefer cans where I have to acclimatize to a sonic characteristic that are perhaps flat and not too harsh, rather than having to acclimatize to an aspect that's a tad overdone. This leads to a less fatiguing experience. These ALO K702's are very much like this. So are the HD650's.

The HD650's would settle down over time with listening as my ears acclimatized and adjusted its sensitivity to the HD650's sonic character.

Grado's are the other way around, with the forward upper mids to highs being what I adjust to, especially with some music where the forwardness can be quite prominently represented. My Ultrasone's need some adjusting to with regard to the low end response when listening to some music. This sort of adjustment leads to fatigue and I soon fall out of favour with their sound over the long haul.

 

[estreeter]

Some days I cant listen to the 325is, other days I refuse to listen to anything else. Esp my girlfriend.

 

[Shoreman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ra97oR /img/forum/go_quote.gif IMO burn-in 100% happens with dynamic headphones, all my dynamic headphones changes massively the first hour after unboxed, imo its not in my head.

 

[aimlink]

Massive changes in the first hour of initial use?.... Not in your head.

Shoreman, let me add my

It takes more than an hour to get a proper initial impression of the phones performance, much less appreciating change secondary to burnin.

 

[AnalogJ]

Look -- Can't I be entitled to my own delusions?

Seriously, whether merely through my inborn abilities or my training or both, I can perceive things not everyone does perceive. Otherwise, everyone would be a professional musician. I am aware how perceptions can be changed depending on how you feel that day, that hour. Actors, of which is also a profession of mine, use their current state of mind to inform their performances. This is partly why you can see a production of a play more than once and not see the exact same play. I may react to something, even with the same motivation, differently one time, which then prompts a slightly different reaction to the actor who has the next line. There's a fine balance, for actors, between rehearsed and planned, and spontaneity.

In any event, imagine an art historian viewing a painting versus the average schmoe viewing the same painting. The art historian will see things in the painting that the schmoe doesn't (until the historian points it out, perhaps). The art historian can point out the artist's use of light, or paint stroke, or other details, that lead to the final intended result by the artist. That art historian may possibly discern a different feel from the painting depending on his mood, or might see even more on a day when he/she is particularly open to it, but the art historian's eyes are pretty analytically consistent in being able to see the artist's technique in rendering the painting to communicate whatever the artist intended to communicate.

I know that I can not only hear subtle details in music, but I can articulate what I'm hearing. It's not just a feeling, though that's there too. I once was comparing a German pressing of The Beatles' "With the Beatles" and an original UK Parlophone. I was noticing some artifactual differences between the sonics of the two LPs. But then I noticed that my toes were tapping to one song on the UK. I went back to the German LP and found myself appreciating the same song, but more on an intellectual level. Going back to the UK, I found my body just grooving with the music more. I didn't do enough experimenting to figure out exactly why the difference, but I could definitely tell, while both LPs had very nice 'analog' presentations, the German LP was mellower, almost a bit veiled in comparison, while the UK original was more immediate. That's one of those things that you really need to A/B to appreciate.

But as I have said in a previous post, knowing the CDs I was using so well, I could easily remark specific things that were missing upon earlier listens through the Grados, and what things I was hearing that I may have never heard before. I was certainly hearing a forward, shriller treble, which not only forced me to turn down the volume, but also robbed the sound of balance. Additionally, the relative lack of refinement on the top end was not only adding grain, but obliterating the individuality of certain instruments that were playing melodic lines in unison. I was also very clearly hearing more of the bow on the string with a cello solo more than the body.

After the latest 48 hours of burning in, I was hearing much less of those metallic aspects to the instrument (bow on the strong, metallic aspects to the trumpet and flute) and more of the resonance. This not only meant I could turn the volume up more, but the balance was clearly more even. Moreover, I was, for the first time through the Grados, hearing the flute and trumpet in this one passage as two distinct instruments rather than being shmooshed into essentially one image. Clearly the top end had become more refined, settled down -- whatever. The result of the top end settling down was the perceived recessing of the soundstage. The top end is not as in my face as it was.

Now, the only trouble I can see with my assessments is that there is no control. It is what is likely troubling those who say I need a new set of Grados to compare to the ones I have. I understand this.

First of all, I trust my ears and my knowledge of sound and music, with all the training I have. I am not a schmoe in this area, unlike me in an art museum looking at a painting. On the other hand, perhaps my CD player is also getting better as I burn in the headphones. Perhaps the headphone amp (which I bought used and had many hours on it previous to my ownership) is improving. So, it is possible that I'm hearing other elements at play here, but I have no doubt that I'm hearing real things that are repeatable. I trust my hearing and musical mind enough (otherwise, I'd be a bad music director). I hear music the way an art historian sees a painting. I am definitely hearing an improvement. To prove it's from the breaking in of the headphones, to be absolutely scientific, I would need a new set of headphones. I am assuming, however, that the CD player and amp have had enough breaking in themselves that they're not the ones changing the sound this much.

Or I am completely self-deluded.

 

[aimlink]

You're certainly entitled to your own delusions, AnalogJ. I certainly wouldn't or shouldn't deny you them.

I personally wouldn't be too confident about these things. I remain really, really suspicious about claimed liberation from some human tendencies/characteristics while still remaining embodied as human. I'm not saying it's impossible, but so many who claim to have been liberated are no such thing. In the majority of cases, while there is some liberation, there isn't full liberation and they continue to have the tendency. It's just that it's much more controlled, though not fully controlled. So finally, allow me some skepticism on the matter. I don't see how that takes away from your personal confidence on the matter. That's your prerogative. Continue to share your experiences since it's certainly not falling on unseeing eyes. We'll take from it what we will consciously or otherwise.

 

[wallace]

It must be early onset altzhiemers ,my 325is's sound the same now as they did when i pulled them out of the box,three months ago.JUST FINE.

 

[aimlink]

Is it more just down to those poorly trained ears of yours?

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGreen /img/forum/go_quote.gif I too believe in burn-in however I believe most of it happens within the first hour

You're probably right. If you run pink noise at a moderate level, an hour's worth of vibrating the diaphragm should be enough to loosen it from it's factory state, right? What else could occur if you kept it up for another 300 hours? It's like mashing potatoes for 2 hours when they are done after 5 minutes.

The real nonsense is burning in cables. It's like "burning in" oxygen before you breathe it in.

 

[pwnRhasta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle /img/forum/go_quote.gif The real nonsense is burning in cables. It's like "burning in" oxygen before you breathe it in.

Haha, I laughed. The more i read about this headphone, the more anxious I get before buying them. I just gotta save a bit more and I'll probably get these cans. Can't wait for my wallet to get thinner...

 

[googleborg]

i used to own a pair of 325i, good sound but have to agree about the treble. oddly comfortable too even though they look hideous, i use much cheaper phones these days in light of some things i've learnt and some enlightening experiences.

also agree with Sgtpepper about the conditioning; ya see, ears and the bit of brain that operates them are adaptive things that continually readjust to work at their best in any given environment, pretty amazing, but it renders whole swathes of the audiophile world pretty defunct right off the bat (not even touching the whole psychological aspect of expectation and the experience of spending cash for rewards, etc, the retuning is simply how ears work). New headphones and your ears and brain will readjust over time, as they are tuned to the old ones, any comparisons over this so-called 'break in' period are totally useless, it's your ears burning in, not the 'phones! - but if you disagree (with science) then fair enough, it's not my problem, just know that your ears are not scientific instruments and worsen considerably with age (@19 i could hear upto 21khz (well, feel, it bloody hurt!) now @25 i can't hear/feel a thing past 19khz, eventually i'll end up with FM radio hearing and worse hahahaha, but i'll be old by then and able to afford fancy audio equipment, right?

), and change in their 'tuning' even more so all the time, if they never did this they'd be useless. The only useful a/b between the same model is to get an old and new pair and change about. between different models and it's not biologically possible to do it, though you will of course hear differences between the two, it's hardly accurate or fair.

unrelated, you have to test all flacs ya download for their frequency range (with adobe audition or w/e) as mp3s (which hack off the highs you can't hear anyway) are being expanded into flac and well, people can't tell the difference/notice it. argh.

 

[pwnRhasta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by googleborg /img/forum/go_quote.gif unrelated, you have to test all flacs ya download for their frequency range (with adobe audition or w/e) as mp3s (which hack off the highs you can't hear anyway) are being expanded into flac and well, people can't tell the difference/notice it. argh.

I agree, back then I used to have all these flac albums in my iPod, but I later noticed what are the benefits of having flac when I can not even tell the difference from MP3, so now i just have MP3 ranging from 320-192 kbps.