[googleborg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwnRhasta /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree, back then I used to have all these flac albums in my iPod, but I later noticed what are the benefits of having flac when I can not even tell the difference from MP3, so now i just have MP3 ranging from 320-192 kbps.

aye, lossy audio has come a long way from when it used to be utterly dreadful and companies made claims like '96khz and you won't be able to tell the difference from cd!' (if you listen to your music through mile-long straws).

I still rip to lossless formats though, simply because HD storage is getting cheaper by the month, and shrinking to mp3 from lossless is easily done.

I almost feel ashamed to admit even on my hifi, i'm not sure i can tell the difference between lossy and lossless...anyone know any tools for this to blind test myself

?

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by googleborg /img/forum/go_quote.gif i used to own a pair of 325i, good sound but have to agree about the treble. oddly comfortable too even though they look hideous, i use much cheaper phones these days in light of some things i've learnt and some enlightening experiences. also agree with Sgtpepper about the conditioning; ya see, ears and the bit of brain that operates them are adaptive things that continually readjust to work at their best in any given environment, pretty amazing, but it renders whole swathes of the audiophile world pretty defunct right off the bat (not even touching the whole psychological aspect of expectation and the experience of spending cash for rewards, etc, the retuning is simply how ears work). New headphones and your ears and brain will readjust over time, as they are tuned to the old ones, any comparisons over this so-called 'break in' period are totally useless, it's your ears burning in, not the 'phones! - but if you disagree (with science) then fair enough, it's not my problem, just know that your ears are not scientific instruments and worsen considerably with age (@19 i could hear upto 21khz (well, feel, it bloody hurt!) now @25 i can't hear/feel a thing past 19khz, eventually i'll end up with FM radio hearing and worse hahahaha, but i'll be old by then and able to afford fancy audio equipment, right? ), and change in their 'tuning' even more so all the time, if they never did this they'd be useless. The only useful a/b between the same model is to get an old and new pair and change about. between different models and it's not biologically possible to do it, though you will of course hear differences between the two, it's hardly accurate or fair. unrelated, you have to test all flacs ya download for their frequency range (with adobe audition or w/e) as mp3s (which hack off the highs you can't hear anyway) are being expanded into flac and well, people can't tell the difference/notice it. argh.

While I agree with a lot of what you say, life is never really as cut and dry as that. If you walk into a perfume shop of worth, you'll always find the coffee beans to give your sense of smell a reboot/reset. In so doing, you can more effectively assess different scents without being influenced by the scent of another. Burn-in changes may be appreciated in this way, by switching headphones, especially one with different characteristics. When you return to the headphone you're burning in, you'll hear again some of things you thought were gone *and then some*.

Additionally, it's challenging ascribing to burn-in, being able to hear what you couldn't hear before. I guess you could argue that your hearing got more sensitive as a feature of acclimatization and adaptation?

 

[AnalogJ]

If you don't believe that someone, through training and experience, along with ability, can discern progressive differences in performance, then you don't believe in reviewers. Most equipment reviewers listen to the equipment without direct comparison with another piece (though that can be helpful to the reader). Through their experience, they have a sense of how music should sound to them (though this is subjective). At least, they have a reference of music that they are thoroughly familiar with. How 'bout a movie or theater reviewer? Should they dismiss their own observations because of the possibility that they might have had a bad day the day they were seeing the performance?? You can question whether a particular reviewer's taste mirrors your own or not. You can even question someone's motivation. And you can question for the sake of discovery. But it's ill thought to eschew investigationg for the purpose of shutting down your own or someone else's inquiry.

There are those who say that the only way to test a component is through measurement. To me, that's nonsense. There have always been components that test 'perfectly', but sound like crap.

And don't make fun of those who have been educated or trained. I roll my eyes at those who raise ignorance to the level close to deification (Sarah Palin, for example). I respect those who have spent considerable time educating themselves to help sharpen and deepen their appreciation and knowledge of their passions. I have said to others that I can get excited about anvils if I am talking to someone who is passionate and educated about anvils. I would question anyone's motives and openness to their own growth if they are only interested in their own gut feelings rather than hearing from someone who has spent most of their life learning, studying and practicing a subject.

It's okay to be skeptical, which is a healthy questioning of the status quo. Questioning implies that the skeptic is going to dig and research for themselves. Being cynical, on the other hand, allows for no questioning and shuts down any questioning and research for themselves.

As Aimlink said, he's skeptical but is interested in reading. That's great. I can only convey my own findings. That is not a substitute for your own. If you're not achieving a particular result, you can trash someone else's results, or you can find out if there is something that you're not doing, the doing of which will help achieve the result you want.

Before I purchased these Grados, I read a lot, which helped get me to narrow down my choices a bit. Reading that many on this list tested headphones with rock or hip hop, I thought that those types of music don't necessarily show everything a pair of headphones (or any equipment) can do. I asked to hear from those who listened to classical and jazz and I got some responses. After that, I went to a shop where I could hear a variety of brands of headphones. I wanted to hear for myself (After all, all of this is ultimately somewhat subjective). Part of my frustration with buying phono cartridges is the inability for me to hear for myself.

In any event, to borrow from a proverb -- Ignorance is not always bliss.

 

[AnalogJ]

[QUOTE Additionally, it's challenging ascribing to burn-in, being able to hear what you couldn't hear before. I guess you could argue that your hearing got more sensitive as a feature of acclimatization and adaptation?[/QUOTE]

Challenging, perhaps, but not impossible. I had been listening to two particular passages quite a bit. Frankly, if you had told me that there was a piece of music you were intimately familiar with, when listening through a particular set of headphones, you hadn't heard it the first 9 times, but heard it the 10th after 48 hours of break-in, that you were suddenly hearing it because you were simply becoming acclimated to the headphones. What you're suggesting doesn't make sense to me given the circumstances.

There are those who have had the previous incarnation of the Grado SR325i headphones for a while and have never been able to rid the headphones from shrillness, despite having had them for a year. If they woke up one day finding that shrillness was gone, you might say that they lost the upper end of their hearing, or they had finally become acclimated, or something had shifted.

Those who say there is no such thing as burning in a component (or cables) have no idea and either haven't bothered trying it themselves in a serious way, have flawed components, or have tin ears. If it were me and I was experiencing shrillness I was trying to get rid of and there were those who claimed they were successfully doing it, I'd be asking them for their recipes and trying these recipes out, rather than saying "It can't be done."

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnalogJ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Those who say there is no such thing as burning in a component (or cables) have no idea and either haven't bothered trying it themselves in a serious way, have flawed components, or have tin ears. If it were me and I was experiencing shrillness I was trying to get rid of and there were those who claimed they were successfully doing it, I'd be asking them for their recipes and trying these recipes out, rather than saying "It can't be done."

So maybe some of us have tried out the 'recipes' and come to the conclusion that it 'can't be done'. But it is impossible to share someone elses overactive imagination.

I believe that some components (such as loudspeakers and phono cartridges) do change after their moving parts have been moving for a while. And I think that headphone diaphragms do "settle in" after a bit of use. But cables and wire? Nah.

 

[AnalogJ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle /img/forum/go_quote.gif And I think that headphone diaphragms do "settle in" after a bit of use. But cables and wire? Nah.

Ummm.....and how do you 'know' this??

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnalogJ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Challenging, perhaps, but not impossible. I had been listening to two particular passages quite a bit. Frankly, if you had told me that there was a piece of music you were intimately familiar with, when listening through a particular set of headphones, you hadn't heard it the first 9 times, but heard it the 10th after 48 hours of break-in, that you were suddenly hearing it because you were simply becoming acclimated to the headphones. What you're suggesting doesn't make sense to me given the circumstances. There are those who have had the previous incarnation of the Grado SR325i headphones for a while and have never been able to rid the headphones from shrillness, despite having had them for a year. If they woke up one day finding that shrillness was gone, you might say that they lost the upper end of their hearing, or they had finally become acclimated, or something had shifted. Those who say there is no such thing as burning in a component (or cables) have no idea and either haven't bothered trying it themselves in a serious way, have flawed components, or have tin ears. If it were me and I was experiencing shrillness I was trying to get rid of and there were those who claimed they were successfully doing it, I'd be asking them for their recipes and trying these recipes out, rather than saying "It can't be done."

So you're saying that psychoacoustic influence is a dragon that you have tamed in your backyard?

As to reviewers, I use what they say as guides. While I respect their experience and do take very seriously what they write and often can agree after experiencing things myself, I know that they're just people with their own biases, hangups, agendas etc. I'd be silly to believe all that they write. No matter your experience... always be in doubt because the human mind is a pesky animal to tame with many layers. The minute you start claiming you've succeeded in doing so is the time I start disregarding your opinion as being similar to that of another aloof academic who thinks he/she has it all figured out.

While I'm prepared to believe that you are appreciating some changes secondary to burn-in, I'm not prepared to believe that every little change you ascribe to burn-in are necessarily so, even though you may believe this to be the case and for whatever reason, qualifications and all. While I do appreciate your mentioning the basis behind your confidence on these matters, it's not reason for waving claimed infallibility about it. Some would call that arrogant or imposing. As a professional who is accustomed to well respected and deservedly successful mentors and veterans in my own field taking on similar stances only to be proven wrong later on, I can only smile at this display here.

 

[googleborg]

With regards to ABX testing, foobar can do it! using this plug in

foobar2000: Components Repository - ABX Comparator

had a play and got 8/10 comparing wmalossless and wmapro @ 192. one test; it's hardly scientific - scraping the barrel in statistical significance - and i could see when i was getting things right which in retrospect might have skewed things somehow (reinforced that there really was something wrong with the snares in the wma pro file), but along with the linear spectrum analyser which foobar also has

it's quite informative/educational

I felt it was the snares that became a pretty obvious difference between the two when i listened hard, much 'harder' than i can keep up with in normal, enjoyable, listening (i now have a headache). old news though.

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/9440/abx1.png

this was through loudspeakers however, using headphones (like grado325i), which i don't have about at this exact moment, it might be much more obvious.

anyhoo i'm totally offtopic i think enjoy the grados.

 

[aimlink]

Your hearing, other senses, and mental abilities can be trained like muscles. What may be hard to do now, can with practice, be effortless later. What seems impossible without training, can be made easy with training. What may be inaudible with one setup, may be easily audible with another, even to an untrained pair of ears. There's a lot involved, so claiming that it doesn't exist or is inaudible because you can't detect or hear it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's this latter belief in ones own senses and assuming that it's as acute of that of another that will make these sort of arguments unresolvable. The further fly in the ointment is the phenomenon of adaptation and habituation that occurs with the senses and the mind. On such sensitive matters, one never really knows which is at play. I'm far, far more ready to believe AnalogJ's experience than some of the empty, flippantly relayed experience to the contrary.

 

[AnalogJ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm far, far more ready to believe AnalogJ's experience than some of the empty, flippantly relayed experience to the contrary.

In any event, the improvements I hear, whether real or imagined, are enough real to me to liking these SR325is headphones. Without going into too much detail, doing a comparison this afternoon between the Grados and my loudspeakers, I find the former are much closer to the latter now than they were a couple of weeks ago. I now think that the Grados are more extended in the highs and have a bit more detailed midrange than my speakers, but I would no longer call the Grados "tipped up" in the highs, something I would have said about them two weeks ago.

But really, I only post these notes because I think I might be helpful to those who are considering these headphones for purchase. As I couldn't find much written in these pages from those who listen to classical, jazz, vocal and folk, which perhaps require more refinement than what is required for rock and hip-hop, I figured that these posts might help. I also give my background so those who read these posts have a better sense of where I am coming from when reading them.

I hope most who are serious about purchasing a pair give themselves an opportunity to hear them for themselves through a dealer with return privileges. Or purchase used where turning around and reselling them without a loss is possible in case they don't float your boat.

I also wanted to put forth that in my experience, you need to push any headphones to their limits with more demanding music at somewhat higher volume while breaking them in than normal listening level in order to burn them in properly. I can now listen through the headphones at higher levels than I could before, largely, I believe, because the top end has receded. Whether a greater sense of dynamics exists because I am able to raise the volume or whether there is greater dynamic slam because the driver has relaxed, I can't be certain. I can say that, as I mentioned in a previous post, I can tell when I go into a dealer whether a speaker has been broken in or not, even when I'm not familiar with the speaker's sound to begin with. There is a stiffness to the flow of the music, and impact is more thumpy, not really moving as much air as they probably could. It was this same lack of impact with the Grados I felt in the beginning. They now have about as much impact as my loudspeakers, so again, I sense something has physically happened with the headphones as opposed to me simply becoming acclimated to what is there.

In the end, those of you who are cynics, you'll pooh-pooh what I have written because what I say doesn't fit into your paradigm of what is possible. For others, if if what I write speaks to you and piques your interest, go ahead and try to find a pair to audition.

And to those who have these headphones and just can't seem to shake off the tipped high end but want to, try a great recording of some dynamic orchestral music such as Aaron Copland's "Rodeo" or Gustav Holst's "The Planets" (Probably my favorite orchestra work along with Dvorak's "New World" Symphony.). And get a CD of a Tower of Power or the related Strokeland Superband. These guys have THE best horn section in the business along with a smoking rhythm section, and their James Brown influenced jazz-rock and funk will get you moving in place while your headphones are on.

Happy listening, y'all!

P.S. Don't put off giving to the victims of Haiti if you can

 

[googleborg]

does anyone know why is the world of audiophilia vastly male dominated?

 

[AnalogJ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by googleborg /img/forum/go_quote.gif does anyone know why is the world of audiophilia vastly male dominated?

This may be a better question for a standalone topic, but without having done any research on it, all I can do is venture guesses. Here are a few possibilities:

1) Men are detail oriented in a different way than women. Much like repairing cars is also dominated by men. Why is the world of knitting dominated by women (Not exclusively, though. Check out Kaffe Fassett.)?

2) Men have been conditioned to pursue scientific inquiry more than women have. In some ways, this hobby requires some scientific research.

3) Are women less likely to merely sit in front of a pair of speakers or with a set of headphones and just listen without doing something else (like knitting or reading)?

4) Women don't want to get involved in pissing contests, of which some of the latter can be found on this site.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnalogJ /img/forum/go_quote.gif This may be a better question for a standalone topic, but without having done any research on it, all I can do is venture guesses. Here are a few possibilities: 1) Men are detail oriented in a different way than women. Much like repairing cars is also dominated by men. Why is the world of knitting dominated by women (Not exclusively, though. Check out Kaffe Fassett.)? 2) Men have been conditioned to pursue scientific inquiry more than women have. In some ways, this hobby requires some scientific research. 3) Are women less likely to merely sit in front of a pair of speakers or with a set of headphones and just listen without doing something else (like knitting or reading)? 4) Women don't want to get involved in pissing contests, of which some of the latter can be found on this site.

For one two and three, you may be unto something. On the fourth, oh yes they do get involved in pissing contests. It's just that it's not usually over things too mechanically complicated.