[MirandaX]

Recently I've noticed a trend on this board recently about low impedance cans. Kelly and Flumpus' review of the W100 mentioned that the W100 was harsh, but folks with the Earmax Pro haven't noticed that. Hirsch has said that with the majority of the tubes he's tried (but not all) in the Melos the Sony 3k is extremely, almost unbearably bright. There seems to be a controversy over just how bright Grados are: most agree they're at least somewhat bright, but for many they're painfully bright.

Anyway, in my listening I've noticed something similar. With one amp I have (120 Ohm output impedance), my Grado 125 sounds balanced and not bright at all. With another (Stereo-link, 32 Ohm output impedance), they're pretty bright. And with the Melos (0.5 Ohm output impedance) they're very bright, almost too much so.

Anyone see the trend? Amps with very low output impedances tend to make low impedance cans sound bright and harsh. This might not be true of all cans, but it's worth checking out if it's a problem for you.

As a test, I built myself a simple 120-Ohm adapter just like the one Jan Meier ships with the Porta Corda, and tried using that with the Melos and the Grados. Wow! The sound changed dramatically, becoming much less bright and more balanced and satisfying (without losing the great impact the Melos naturally has). I'm sticking with this set-up from now on.

Anyway, if you have low impedance cans and you feel they're too bright with your amp, I would really recommend trying this.

(Also, all Headroom amps have a very low output impedance. This might explain why Grados sound very bright with them. There seems to be some wisdom in Jan Meier's approach to the Corda and Porta Corda, offering both low and high impedance outputs.)

Has anyone else noticed this kind of thing (i.e. low impedance cans sound better with medium impedance (100 Ohm to 150 Ohm) headphone jacks)?

 

[Spad]

Quote:

Originally posted by MirandaX Recently I've noticed a trend on this board recently about low impedance cans. Kelly and Flumpus' review of the W100 mentioned that the W100 was harsh, but folks with the Earmax Pro haven't noticed that. Hirsch has said that with the majority of the tubes he's tried (but not all) in the Melos the Sony 3k is extremely, almost unbearably bright. There seems to be a controversy over just how bright Grados are: most agree they're at least somewhat bright, but for many they're painfully bright. Anyway, in my listening I've noticed something similar. With one amp I have (120 Ohm output impedance), my Grado 125 sounds balanced and not bright at all. With another (Stereo-link, 32 Ohm output impedance), they're pretty bright. And with the Melos (0.5 Ohm output impedance) they're very bright, almost too much so. Anyone see the trend? Amps with very low output impedances tend to make low impedance cans sound bright and harsh. This might not be true of all cans, but it's worth checking out if it's a problem for you. As a test, I built myself a simple 120-Ohm adapter just like the one Jan Meier ships with the Porta Corda, and tried using that with the Melos and the Grados. Wow! The sound changed dramatically, becoming much less bright and more balanced and satisfying (without losing the great impact the Melos naturally has). I'm sticking with this set-up from now on. Anyway, if you have low impedance cans and you feel they're too bright with your amp, I would really recommend trying this. (Also, all Headroom amps have a very low output impedance. This might explain why Grados sound very bright with them. There seems to be some wisdom in Jan Meier's approach to the Corda and Porta Corda, offering both low and high impedance outputs.) Has anyone else noticed this kind of thing (i.e. low impedance cans sound better with medium impedance (100 Ohm to 150 Ohm) headphone jacks)?

This is exactly the response I get when using Ety 4P/Ss with a Corda. From the 0 ohm jack, the 27 ohm 4P is slightly bright. Adding 75 ohms (Fixup.com's P/S adapter in this case) eliminates this brightness entirely.

This apparently goes against the conventional wisdom in the case of the Etys, and most owners are adamant that it just ain't so. Yet, to my ear the difference is obvious.

At any rate, I think you're on to something, MirandaX. I hope you explore it further, particularly as it applies to the Melos. As I recall, this amp has played a central role in the wide disparity of reactions to the ATH-W100 and W2002, which, as you know, are low impedance models.

 

[kelly]

I have actually not yet had the opportunity to audition the W100, though the W2002 is the same impedance so it doesn't diminish your point.

We actually only found the W2002 to be harsh when used with Flumpus' rig. That consisted of a Sony 555ES SACD player (slightly bright? anyone care to comment?), silver interconnects (known for brightness) and the SHA-1's stock tubes (thought by some to be slightly bright). I didn't take the time to disasemble and troubleshoot the entire rig since Flumpus' wasn't keeping the headphone but my point is that I think that was case specific.

When we went down to compare the W2002 to the Stax systems, I took my Corda HA-1 along which I think pairs nicely with the W2002. When used with the Linn Ikemi CD player, I didn't find the combination to be harsh. However, in comparrison to the relatively flat Stax, the treble spike seemed more prominent. This is undoubtedly one of the reasons that female vocals sound especially sweet on the W2002 and the part of why vocal attenuation in general is so clear on that headphone. It does impact other things in a negative way but I'd venture to say that most people would think it worth the trade off since the presentation is so smooth. Again, I didn't find the headphone to be harsh on any other equipment I've used including the headphone jack straight out of Sony Discmans and Panasonic portables. What that headphone can do with a portable CD player is nothing short of astonishing.

To clairfy what I think to be an ambiguous term, when I say bright I'm using the word to mean "having a hightened trebble response." When I find the sound to be painful or fatiguing, I use the term "harsh." I'm relatively new to the hobby so if I'm way off base, please (politely) offer some alternative language.

In regards to the Etymotic ER-4P, I don't find its treble response to be hot with the Corda HA-1 from the 0ohm jack. I do, however, find it to be less smooth sounding in general than the ER-4S, a consequence that is typically attributed to low impedance headphones with high sensitivity. With the W2002, it's simply an exception and manages to not be harsh in the least. My feeling is that Flumpus' somewhat bright rig pushed the W2002 over a tolerance and that the scenario is atypical. From Markl's findings, I would suspect simply altering the tubes in the Melos would easily make it mate better.

The W100 I know only what I've read from you fine people but I've seen it repeatedly posted that any harshness it has diminishes greatly with burn in.

 

[markl]

Hmmm....
I especially liked the Sony CD3000 (a 32 or 40-ohm phone) with the ZOTL and didn't find it bright at all. ZOTL can drive both Grados and Senns with ease, so I suppose it has low output impedence. I don't recall anyone claiming the ZOTL was "too bright".

I also use my Melos SHA-Maestro with my 40-ohm Sony R10s, and the sound is not bright at all (though the R10s themselves aren't bright). I used the w2002 a 40 ohm phone with Melos, and didn't find that over-bright either, though some have said w2002 has too much treble.

I don't think we can make this generalization. I think the differences people note is due to other factors.

Besides, don't you want your headphones being driven at their supposed optimum impedence? Why take a 32 ohm phone and build a 120 ohm adaptor to "fix" an inherent problem with your Grados?

Face it, you may simply dislike the basic Grado sound if you have to make them operate under less than ideal conditions to make them palatable to you. It's OK to dislike Grados. I don't like them either.

I would sooner find a new pair of headphones than make my amps/headphones operate outside of their established specs to achieve good sound.

markl

 

[tanfenton]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly We actually only found the W2002 to be harsh when used with Flumpus' rig. That consisted of a Sony 555ES SACD player (slightly bright? anyone care to comment?), silver interconnects (known for brightness) and the SHA-1's stock tubes (thought by some to be slightly bright). I didn't take the time to disasemble and troubleshoot the entire rig since Flumpus' wasn't keeping the headphone but my point is that I think that was case specific.

The factory tubes have a harsh upper-midrange—lower-treble that lacks coherency. They're narrow-sounding and honky if you ask me.

NGF

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by tanfenton The factory tubes have a harsh upper-midrange—lower-treble that lacks coherency. They're narrow-sounding and honky if you ask me. NGF

I think the coincidence is that this is probably the same part of the frequency spectrum that the W2002 peaks in. The other headphones we auditioned didn't and thus didn't emphasize this weakness of the stock tubes.

 

[Hirsch]

Add the Sr-200 to the list of 32 ohm cans that don't sound bright using the SHA-1. There's more going on than just impedance. UPS willing, I should have another can to try with the SHA-1 tomorrow.

 

[txpp]

I did find w100 a bit bright and dry on the right jack of obh-11se, with the left jack, it's better. If I'm not wrong, somebody said the left jack of 11se is 64om while the right one is 32om or something...

 

[Fortune]

Is there anyone else who has heard the Melos/W100 together?

I'm a bit confused with this impedence issue and also a bit concerned since I recently ordered a set of W100's.

 

[markl]

I used my Melos (Gold/maestro) with the W2002 and thought it was a great combo.

 

[Fortune]

Thanks Markl

What kind of tubes are you using in your Melos?

 

[markl]

At the time I only had my SHA-Gold and was using Russian military 6922s. I now have a SHA-Maestro and have a set of early 60s Siemens Gold pins that are great.

Of course I use it with my Sony R10 which is also a 40-ohm phone and sound is pretty unbelievable. Melos should be able to drive any phone except maybe K1000.

markl

 

[Ross]

I tried my Grados and CD3000s with the 120 ohm adapter that came with my Porta Corda. I tried it with the Headroom Maxed Home and the Porta Corda. In either case, it sounded worse with 120 ohms - muffled and grainy.

Ross

 

[kelly]

W2002 sounded assy from the 120ohm jack of the Corda and rather nice from the 0ohm jack.

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl At the time I only had my SHA-Gold and was using Russian military 6922s. I now have a SHA-Maestro and have a set of early 60s Siemens Gold pins that are great.

Dammit markl, I thought I was done tube rolling the Melos. Then you had to go and mention the Siemens', and there was an ebay auction closing today...