[DarkAngel]

Skippy
I'll even do better than KR, send me your $20 amp that equals the RA1, and if it does I'll pay you $30 and sell my RA1 for $200, give me a break.

Thomas
Yes those are the important details that make all the difference!
That is why certain people who say they have $20 amp that equals RA1 are not being realistic.
And you are smart enough to realize not to comment on an amp
you have not personally heard, unlike some here........

 

[Tim D]

First of all, no DIYer is going to send a spiffy DIY amp to you for free especially with a hostile attitude, just as no one expects you to send them your Grado RA-1 amp.

You can say that they haven't heard the RA-1 (some have), but they can say you haven't heard the right DIY amp.

There has also been "3rd party" tests where people like Dan obviously thinks his amp would blow the RA-1 away...course he'd probably sell his amp at much more than the cost of the RA-1 to boot given his value of it.

But if an experienced DIYer can look at the parts, identify them, and know how much they cost, they should be able to duplicate it for cheaper IMO, granted that they don't need a magic Grado wand it should perform just as well. We are assuming that mere mortal engineers are at Grado building these things anyhow. So if you do match the skill and parts, the only thing that would be missing would be I suppose the magic wand that makes it cost more.

And no one that I've heard has used the same opamp yet either.

I don't know what the big problem is...a lot of commercial headphone amp offerings are ummmm pricy.

IMO this argument could have just as easily extended into any commercial amp vs DIY. I remember the folks at Headroom claiming that they liked their amps much better than the Grado RA-1...for all we know they definitely had the resources and incentive to "spy a look" at the guts of the RA-1. Something like the TA just MIGHT easily have a higher or very similar price count than the RA-1...that surely also doesn't mean that people will like it as much.

As for why there are people judging the amp before they heard it. Well what if Dell has a nice expensive computer, and someone knowledgable about computers spied a look at the guts and was able to identify all the parts and layout. Perhaps they could argue that they could make the same thing for cheaper...or maybe something even better. Wheter or not this is the reality I do not know...I do know that this is the stance of many DIYer's.

Ummmm, I probably can't build an RA-1 so I can't say. But I definitely know I could easily build a good computer for cheap. Course that said, I have no problems buying prebuilt computers from good companies and sometimes prefer it!

 

[KR...]

The Cmoy which I had for two weeks was Bootman's, which was bulit by JMT, which was the amp that he was using in his main system for some time. It uses 16 AA batteries. I can't tell you about the insides, since I didn't build it.

As for as DIY guys,

I am sure that someone can in fact bulid a better sounding amp than the RA-1, of course they will also tell you that it would cost the same as a RA-1 or even more in order to do it. Not the mention testing different caps and parts to get the right sound, and the time and skill it takes to build it.

I paid $299 for my new RA-1. I have heard the Cmoy47 and I have with me the X-Cans V2. And even after seeing the RA-1 insides pics, I still DO NOT feel ripped off. Why? Because I heard it, and it still the best amp for the price.

Not to start a flame war, but it seems to me that a lot of DIY guys are totally full of **** and are talking out of their asses. However, they are also many who really do know what they are doing and talking about and are honest about their projects, it's these DIYers that have earn my respect and I can only wish that I could design and build amps like they do.

 

[skippy]

ok... looks like forgot about the pot (cheap pots sound really yucky)which would add $30 to the cost (though i'd prefer a stepped attenuator). my bad. which would still bring the parts cost to $50. like a lot of the DIYer's here, i've never believed in selling DIY amps. i don't believe in making cash off someone else's design. especially if it's a clone of a commercial product. i have heard the ra-1 (though not extensively) and it is indeed a very fine sounding amp. and if you like it, by all means purchase it.

i didn't phrase myself well, so what i meant to say and it is entirely possible to get the same or better sound for $60-$100, where KR implied that it was impossible. by stating that i could build a clone, i wanted to point out that using the good construction techniques, the same circuitry, and parts, would result in sound like the ra-1 a cost of goods sold of $50.

i just wasn't contempt with people who have never built an amp, stating that DIY amps cannot compete with the RA-1, simply based on a comparison of one DIY amp.

Quote:

how about DIYselvers stay out of discussions about RA-1 in the amp forums, and RA-1 owners stay out of discussions about it in the DIY forums?

thomas, that is some wise advice. i think i'll follow you on this one.

 

[Tim D]

Also I once asked Dan about possibilities of getting a cmoy from him a LONG time ago...and he basically said that he put far too much work and effort for what I was willing to trade which was a Denon portable CD player.

IMO, I could have easily sold my Denon PCDP for the value of a JMT amp, but obviously far short of an amp Dan would've built. But obviously Dan values his work more. I am NOT trying to pit anyones workmanship or values against another, but I am saying that you can't obviously bundle every single DIY amp into a single pot and it'd be pretty shortsighted to do so. JMT also often confines himself to working with the hansen PCB as well and so he usually can't fit 2 9V's in smaller cases given that constraint.

I still don't know what the big deal is...the RA-1 still isn't a bad value given all the other commercial amps in terms of sound quality. Also does anyone really think the RS-1 or MSP actually cost THAT much more to make compared to the other Grados? Lol, using Bob's allusion, I would say they have a lot more Oompa Lumpa Love in them. But obviously people like them better, and although the differences are obviously "trade secrets", people feel its worth it! Hey I know that the MSP probably isn't THAT much different than the other Grados in terms of designs and parts...that still doesn't mean that it isn't the Grado I would most like to have.

 

[Bob]

Quote:

Amazing how all DYI amps sound great till put to the test by 3rd party, then they fall a little short........

Hmmm, I find this funny actually. Do you think there are magical Oompa Loompas that build the RA1 using pixey dust solder and a high-performance katty wumpus iron? More then likely Jimmy Blowhard, some tech, solders da goods to the board just like Donny Do It Yourself (if someone says something about special ovens I am gonna hurl my keyboard at you). More then likely the RA1 originated from someone’s DIY schematic/prototype (though he/she (cannot leave out the ladies!!!) might have been paid by a company to produce it). It cracks me up how some people think that some of these things are built under “ultra-special” circumstances. One more thing, I am willing to bet my dog Stinky that a ton of the DIY-ers are EE’s and have some real insight into this issue and are not talking out their ass. First, I have heard the amp … and I know for a fact that an identical amp can be built cheaper that will sound the same … but … Mr. Grado has to eat doesn’t he … of course there is going to be a markup. If you do not think the markup is warranted, do not get the amp. If you think the markup is warranted, get the amp and enjoy it. If you own this amp, enjoy it and do not let someone change your mind about it. If YOU like it that is all that counts … right?

 

[KR...]

Grado sells their amps to dealers for I belive $175 (I am not sure but I think that's right, it may be a little more or less). In order to make a profit, it must cost Grado less than that price to built them.

This will help you figure out how must this amp cost to make.

But, it's silly topic anyway.

If you broke it down price wise for all Headphone amps, they cost a hell of a lot less to make than their retail price. But, why should we care? It's true for everything that you buy, so why make a big deal about this?

As long as the RA-1 SOUNDS like a $299 amp, I'm happy. I don't care how much it really cost to make it.

I mean how much does it cost to make a CD? 12 cents? Maybe a lot less. And they retail for what $17? I hope you see where I'm going with this.

 

[DarkAngel]

Skippy
You are right and I have removed my comments about DIY as they are much too general and not accurate.

 

[Tim D]

But Bob...what if Huy_ha manages to make a grado tour along with skippy and others...and they make it to the famed basement.

And OMG there are OOMPAH LOOMPAHS. Maybe theres a reason why he still works out of his basement huh?

BTW...the HP series of Grados OBVIOUSLY cost more to manufacture compared to the newer Grados. But I really wonder what Grado would say if you asked them what was better...newer or older Grados? And anyone can open up the Forbes article where it explicitly states that the reason for Grado's current success is due to John reworking the line-up with cost reductions in mind. Ummm heavy precisely machined metal with attention to microdetails from the original Joe is kinda costly.

BTW I once asked about why they used the glob of glue technique instead of something better...and they claimed it had to do with the skin effect. I'm gonna hold em by their word...and if they ever made "improvements" over the glob of glue technique I really would have to say, "but John...what about the skin effect!"

I don't think the older HP series Grados utilized the glob of glue technique, so I suppose the current line-up had improvements to remove the skin effect.

Oh and I still don't know what there is to be pissed about. Can't you be pissed about...ummm companies like Sony that sells plenty of crappy headphones that people love(the crappy phones being the most popular)...and fashion cap accessories to swap colors on their purdy headphones. Heh how much do you think a pair of sneakers cost to make.

 

[bootman]

KR makes a great point. The cost of the grado RA-1 is 350 retail . If the amp is really say 175 wholesale a 3x parts cost profit is not too much to ask for from a manufacturer. Now since this amp is not sold direct then the retail markups come into play. But this is true for any retail product.

 

[Bob]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim D But Bob...what if Huy_ha manages to make a grado tour along with skippy and others...and they make it to the famed basement. And OMG there are OOMPAH LOOMPAHS. Maybe theres a reason why he still works out of his basement huh?

Good point!!!! Hehehe … well … if there really are Oompa Loompas (I would need visual confirmation of course. I hear that Oompa Loompas are kinda squirrely and therefore it may be a problem to corner one so that I can get a good look at him … but … I will face that problem when I come to it) working in Grado’s basement I know where I am sending my resume. I am sure I would be the envy of all my friends if I got to work there… but!!!! … I would have to give up my life long dream of one-day becoming a “bunny person” for Intel. I mean, where else do EE’s get to wear really cool pastel space suits and dance around to disco music while working?? Sign me up!!!

 

[dhwilkin]

Quote:

KR said... I mean how much does it cost to make a CD? 12 cents? Maybe a lot less. And they retail for what $17? I hope you see where I'm going with this.

Good analogy. Much of the total cost is derived from the middleman (retail). Not to mention, you're also paying for the convenience of not having to DIY, and you're paying for the Grado brand. I won't comment on whether it's worth it or not, as I've never heard the RA-1 or a DIY amp.

 

[bootman]

Imaginary conversation:
Heh look at those non-techies wasting their money on that Grado crap amp. Yeah, I could build one for $20 bucks and it would sound just as good. Yeah me too. I don't know how Grado can get away from selling such a cheap POS. Yeah but those non-diys seem to have so much money to burn on their fancy cables and useless tweaks, so let them throw their money away. My CMOY works just as well and sounds better with my rat shack cables and rat shack portable and I only paid $75 bucks for the whole thing!


Now please take this as intended with tongue firmly in cheek. I know for a fact that the majority of DIYs are not really like this. But there are some out there that sure seem like it. (or post like it!)

 

[skippy]

darkangel, my comments regarding you comment have been removed as well.

personally, i think the ra-1 is pretty reasonably priced. i think the reason why many people are upset at about the pricing is that the price to cost ratio is a lot higher than other amps. but the audiophile market is a small one, and mark up has to be higher if the grado family wants to eat. i know a few DIYer's here have tried to unsuccessfully start a business. it's hard stuff. (that's one reason why i would never build an RA-1 clone for someone, it's hard enough for grado, why would i make it worse?) heck, practically everything audiophile is overpriced. the famed gaincard, is probably nothing more than an opamp too. why don't we bitch about that? the way i see it $300 that goes to the RA-1 is $300 that's not going to bose.

(i have real problems with bose, not only is their stuff over priced, it doesn't even sound good)

and for DIYer's, you can almost always build a clone or a better product for less. nothing new here.

that's the last of me on the subject. (for now at least)

 

[coolvij]

I've been watching this thread develop with a grin on my face, and I think it's time for me to bring up this serious issue.

While it's probably possible to make a DIY amp that can outperform an RA-1, can a DBSE amp outperform the RA-1?

From my experience, DBSE amps just can't hold up against DIY amps.....ya kno?