Grado Harshness
Dec 28, 2009 at 6:15 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 72

Bilavideo

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THE ISSUE

From time to time, I hear people complain about Grado harshness. They say the Grados are "bright" and even "shrill." On the other hand, other phones are knocked for being "dark" and "veiled" while Grados are often praised for being so clear and detailed. It makes you wonder.

WHY IT SHOWS UP

I think the problem is largely perceptual, though it's also rooted in different approaches to capturing the magic of sound. A lot of thumping cans get sold on the basis of their killer bass. They use mylar diaphragms, too, but to get the bass, they either close the back (for a miniature version of an acoustic suspension system) or put an asterisk next to "open air." Knowing that HF is more directional than LF, they either go with a "semi-open" design (using a partial shell to trap more bass) or they use cushions or filters to tone down the HF and let the bass catch up.

Grados don't do either (though the GS-1000 and PS-1000 have slightly smaller rear ports than the RS-1). They rely primarily on the driver in a kind of open-baffle design. To the extent the wooden chambers (or their aluminum and hybrid counterparts) matter, it's because LF waves are longitudinal and more multidirectionall. The air chamber may be made of low-resonance materials but there's got to be some degree of oscillation transmitted forward. Otherwise, what difference would it make whether the chambers were made of plastic or completely nonexistent?

WHY YOU NEED AN AMP

But there's more to this story than meets the eye. Without an amp, you're getting less bass than someone else would get with closed cans or at least open cans modified by screens or filters. The Grados will play but the easiest sounds to reproduce are in the upper register. Grado doesn't mechanically filter the HF or cup the LF. It's open-air design lets bass leak out freely. In fact, the bass you get is only a fraction of what the driver is producing. It's a tradeoff designed to allow the HF to come in as clean as possible. This is why people wax rhapsodic about how clear and detailed the Grados are.

The bass you get from Grados is less, in volume, but cleaner and better controlled. I suspect that, when people come to the Grados from other designs, they crank up the unamp'd cans in the hopes of getting more bass. This produces more HF, and probably in greater proportions, leaving them jarred and maybe injured in the process. They complain about Grado "harshness" and "brightness," which is a lot like my old complaint about the GS1k and its "sibilance." It's an issue created by having a headphone but no amp.

BUT CAN'T YOU GO WITHOUT AN AMP?

People say you can run a Grado without an amp, which is true, but you can't get the full effect without one. John Grado has a Melos. When he listens, he's doing so through a very warm, tubey amp, one that fills the music with a golden aura of presence. I don't have a Melos but when I've piped my Grados through better amps, I've noticed that they just gush a golden warmth that balances out their ample HF. This warmth is something people crave, like fat, salt and sugar. Without their fix, people crank Grados up to grating levels.

As I eventually discovered, the Grados are cleanest when they're not adding acoustical elements to cup or reverberate bass that could be had right off the driver. But the key to getting enough of that bass is having an amp with some real power and warmth. I had an M^3 with STEPs that had a variable bass boost, one capable of pumping so much bass through even the SR-60s that it began to invade the sound stage and overwhelm their clarity. Part of that was a decision, in the design of the amp, setting the bass-boost cutoff point too close to the midrange. (I have several M^3 amps I hope to alter in such a way that their bass boost levels off before the upper bass region.)

GRADO TOLD YOU SO

With every Grado sold, there's a paper or card that reminds the wearer not to crank the cans up too much, that too much volume can be hard on your ears. It's easy to see this as a legal move, on the part of Grado, to avoid liability. But Grado is also careful to point out that his cans are not designed to be played beyond a reasonable volume. Some have scoffed at this, suggesting that Grado is simply trying to justify failure by convincing everyone to play their headphones low (like an auto manufacturer asking drivers to only drive "safe and slow"). All cynicism aside, such scoffing misses the point.

Grados are not meant to be turned up high because good sound doesn't need the "crank it up" crutch. Despite the human tendency to take a good thing too far, there's a point of loudness where you're immersed in the music and you hear it all as loud as you need to. Hearing, like sight, was never meant as a drug. It's a survival mechanism. We push the envelope for much the same reason people eat salty or sour foods, order carbonated beverages, drink to excess, smoke their lungs out, risk their lives on skateboards and surfboards, sky dive or stay up past their bedtime.

Yeah, it's good to "do it, do it, do it till you're satisfied."

But I'm convinced that the tendency to turn the Grados up to grating levels is a kneejerk reaction from listeners who are asking, "Where's the bass?" Grado doesn't cup it and it doesn't hold back the HF, so where is the bass? It requires a warm up with some power. We can't all go out and get a Melos but if you want to hear Grados the way they were meant to be heard, you need a decent amp. That extra power will drive the bass, and you won't have to turn the headphones up any more than is reasonable. If you already have it loud enough to enjoy the midrange and treble, turning it up even louder to get more bass simply doesn't work.

I know because I've tried this and gotten the same shrill response. Hooking my Grados up without an amp, I'm inclined to do what others have done: crank that daddy up and rock out. But doing so produces early ear fatigue. Whenever that happens, I ease off. At first, I feel like a kid sent to bed when he thought he had another thirty minutes. But within a song or two, I'm amazed at how loud the volume is in my "reduced volume" setting. I'm also amazed at how much more balanced the presentation feels.

THE TONAL PARADOX OF GRADOS

How can a set of headphones leave you feeling you got better bass by turning them down? It's not fanboy enthusiasm or the placebo effect. It's the simple fact that cranking the Grados up louder, to get more bass, is not a good idea. You don't get the proportion of bass you're looking for, and the HF is a bit overwhelming. I'm no monk but when I ease off the "crank it" volume and go for the reasonable level, I get a much better balance.

I think it was in one of the HD650 threads that one of our Headphoneus Supremus's pointed out the obvious: amps matter. Whatever else you might expect from them, headphones are basically small speakers. Nobody in the world of loudspeakers expects the speakers to do everything. Nobody blames the speakers alone when there are deficiencies in the presentation. You have to look at what you're amping into the mix. Some headphones are bass catchers - either because they cup the bass or filter out the HF. Grados don't work that way. If you want the rest of the bass, you need to invest in a decent amp.

Some people are satisfied with what they get. Some look to certain Grados to offer a little more. But even an SR-60 will blow the doors off, in terms of bass, if you have it hooked up to the right amp. When it does, you'll want to get the bigger jumbo salad bowls because that much bass can crowd the sound stage.

The point is that Grados aren't harsh when they're "used as directed."
 
Dec 28, 2009 at 11:44 AM Post #3 of 72
Whenever there are two contrasting opinions, especially among numerous individuals on either side, the truth of the matter usually lies somewhere between the divide. I agree with what you're saying since I've experienced this. However, I do feel that Grados do have a characteristic forward sound, especially in the upper mids. You know you have a problem while listening to Metallica with the 325is when you turn it down enough to the point when you're comfortable, only to realise that at that point, you're really only hearing the rhythm guitar riffing away and not much else. This is with the 325is well amp'd. Hetfield's rhythm guitar on 'And Justice for All' seems to synergise with the 325is upper mid/lower treble hump. Makes for an ear piercing combo. In fact, I simply cannot use the 325is to listen to contemporary rock music that contains heavy rhythm guitar thrashing. OTOH, Black Sabbath is groovy with them. Same for Led Zeppelin. The rhthym guitaring in these latter two groups doesn't catch that hump leading to that synergistic shrill.

My RS2i's aren't as affected as the 325is, but I still have difficulty with them and the higher pitched rhythm guitar thrashing.
 
Dec 28, 2009 at 11:55 AM Post #4 of 72
If not harsh, then treble-hot. I find the SR125 to be a bright phone and the HF2 much less so and therefore easier on my ears at low to moderate volumes. The HF2 also has more bass presence.

You really should be blogging Bilavideo.
 
Dec 28, 2009 at 12:05 PM Post #5 of 72
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilavideo /img/forum/go_quote.gif
THE ISSUE

From time to time, I hear people complain about Grado harshness. They say the Grados are "bright" and even "shrill." On the other hand, other phones are knocked for being "dark" and "veiled" while Grados are often praised for being so clear and detailed. It makes you wonder......................................The point is that Grados aren't harsh when they're "used as directed."



Great post I am so glad someone stepped up did their homework and stated the obvious. Sadly a lot of listeners equate listening to music with loud. And why should we follow the directions of the manufacturer / designer...............what do they know????
wink_face.gif
 
Dec 28, 2009 at 12:15 PM Post #6 of 72
There's a few threads about modding the earpads, replacing them with others, and even fusing more than one kind together, with or without cutouts, like this one, that can really help with modding the tonality for your own hearing spectrum.
 
Dec 28, 2009 at 1:08 PM Post #8 of 72
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilavideo /img/forum/go_quote.gif
To the extent the wooden chambers (or their aluminum and hybrid counterparts) matter, it's because LF waves are longitudinal and more multidirectionall. The air chamber may be made of low-resonance materials but there's got to be some degree of oscillation transmitted forward. Otherwise, what difference would it make whether the chambers were made of plastic or completely nonexistent?


In a word: No. If you put a long chamber on one side and leave the other totally chamberless, things sound totally alike (apart from psychoacoustics, of course).
th_P1010075.jpg


That Grado sound chamber thing is a ineradicable audio geek myth, and it is useful, as it helps Grado to justify their silly price tags for the higher tier models. And of cause, it's also a nice market for all those producers of woodies.

NoXter and me did some systematical blind tests on those housing things, it's just boutique hifi (if not to say snake oil). And that is exactly what I honestly tell all the folks who contact me for getting one of my woodies.

th_P1010072.jpg
 
Dec 28, 2009 at 1:15 PM Post #9 of 72
I like my SR325 best listening at low levels. Maybe my focus is every where else than in the bass region. I find that my ER-4S is much worse in this sense. They have no bass at all at low levels and in order to get the bass up and running I am forced to listen at levels I do not really like in the long run - maybe I am a bit paranoid.
 
Dec 28, 2009 at 1:45 PM Post #10 of 72
Quote:

Originally Posted by nickchen /img/forum/go_quote.gif
In a word: No. If you put a long chamber on one side and leave the other totally chamberless, things sound totally alike (apart from psychoacoustics, of course).
th_P1010075.jpg


That Grado sound chamber thing is a ineradicable audio geek myth, and it is useful, as it helps Grado to justify their silly price tags for the higher tier models. And of cause, it's also a nice market for all those producers of woodies.

NoXter and me did some systematical blind tests on those housing things, it's just boutique hifi (if not to say snake oil). And that is exactly what I honestly tell all the folks who contact me for getting one of my woodies.

th_P1010072.jpg



Grado myth debunking - do go on! So are you implying that the "improvement" in the Grado sound as you move up the line is not the result of aluminium and mahogany housings but rather some sly driver tweaking?
 
Dec 28, 2009 at 2:16 PM Post #12 of 72
Quote:

Originally Posted by iponderous /img/forum/go_quote.gif
So are you implying that the "improvement" in the Grado sound as you move up the line is not the result of aluminium and mahogany housings but rather some sly driver tweaking?


Yes, but it's propably no tweaking and serious research as to be found at Sennheiser or AT. There are rumours that Grado's production methods are a bit like Intel's or AMD's: All systems are built identically and are examined and sorted later. There are also serious rumours that Grado isn't capable of building the systems themselves (catchword north american de-industrialisation), but there are enough busy chinese to do that job.

If that is all true, Grado is a snake oil company (kind of), but I personally like their products very much, in spite of all those ridiculous circumstances.
Quote:

Originally Posted by wangtox
the dude in the bottom left pic is creepy looking


Certainly not the most advantageous pic existing of NoXter
wink.gif
 
Dec 28, 2009 at 3:13 PM Post #14 of 72
Quote:

Originally Posted by nickchen /img/forum/go_quote.gif
...There are also serious rumours that Grado isn't capable of building the systems themselves (catchword north american de-industrialisation), but there are enough busy chinese to do that job.

If that is all true, Grado is a snake oil company (kind of), but I personally like their products very much, in spite of all those ridiculous circumstances.



Source? No source = speculative BS.
 
Dec 28, 2009 at 3:27 PM Post #15 of 72
My source for that was the Sennheiser chief developer of the HD800, he uttered that statement on occasion of a long factory visit for the german forum a few months ago. Guess that man should be informed in respect of what is going on in the scene.
 

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