[jbunniii]

I just received a pair of flats from Todd the Vinyl Junkie. (Thanks, Todd! The shipping was astonishingly fast.) I've spent the evening listening to my RS-1's with the flats, and I'm (no pun intended) bowled over by the difference! Gone is the intolerable harshness in the upper midrange/treble, and in its place sweetness and warmth. The mid-bass seems even heavier than with the bowls, but that may be merely a consequence of the less exaggerated high end.

The flats aren't as comfy as the bowls, because they press directly against one's ears, but the physical discomfort is far less of a deterrent than the sonic discomfort provided by the bowls.

My primary headphones are Sennheiser HD-600's, and I bought a used pair of RS-1's a few months ago and had been impressed with the dynamics and punchy bass of the Grados, but ultimately found them very fatiguing and harsh to listen to for more than a CD or so. Until tonight I would have said that the Senns are indisputably better than the RS-1's for most applications, while the RS-1's were tolerable occasionally when a more punchy, dynamic, in-your-face presentation was called for. But now that the harsh highs have been tamed, the Grados are a valid alternative, perhaps even preferable on some recordings, particularly on rock, jazz, and electronica.

Anyone who owns Grado headphones without flat pads should consider trying the flats. The difference is hard to overstate, and to my ears at least, the flats constitute an overwhelming improvement.

I love my Sennheisers and will never part with them, but now with the flat pads, I love the Grados, too! Short of upgrading to the HD-650 on one hand, and the PS-1 or HP-1000 on the other, I now think that I may have the best of both worlds!

Rest of the system: California Audio Labs Icon Mk II feeding a Home Headroom amp

Cheers,
jbunniii

 

[3lusiv3]

Welcome to head-fi, sorry about the wallet.

I'm sure I'll get some Grados or Alessandro's at some point. Flats really seem like the way to go from what I have read.

 

[jbunniii]

(Sorry if this posts without a subject; the "reply to thread" interface is not entirely sensible. This belong to the Grado: flats vs. bowls thread.)

Thanks for the welcome! I've been reading for a few months but haven't posted until now. Yeah, the wallet is smarting lately, but more because of upgrades to the non-headphone system: Bryston 4B-SST and Krell KRC-3 replace 14-year-old Adcom GFA-555 and GTP-400. (Speakers have for some years now been NHT 3.3's.)

The more time I spend listening to the Grados RS-1 with flat pads, the more amazed I am that Grado ships these phones with bowls. It seems to me that one would have to have seriously impaired high-frequency hearing before the bowls could sound better than the flats. The bowls are simply too bright and harsh, and I say this as someone who does not shy away from a good clean high end that some characterize as overly bright (Krell in particular). I wonder how many people have listened to, or even posted reviews of, the RS-1, and rejected them as harsh and unlistenable, based on the bowls and not the flats. The difference is so enormous that it is meaningless to read someone's review of the RS-1 (and presumably any other Grado headphone) without knowing what pads they are using.

Good night all,
jbunniii

 

[acs236]

How much more midbass are you finding with the flats? I have the RS-2s and like the over sonic balance, particularly the amount of bass. I wouldn't want to increase it too much, but I keep hearing about how much better the flats are.

If possible, please compare the midbass with the flats to the HD600. I used to own a 580 (and now own the HD650) and it had to much misbass for me. The 650s, in my opinion, solved that problem. So any compirson between the midbass on the RS-1 w/ flats and the HD600 would be very help ful to me.

 

[Captain]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbunniii ( The more time I spend listening to the Grados RS-1 with flat pads, the more amazed I am that Grado ships these phones with bowls. It seems to me that one would have to have seriously impaired high-frequency hearing before the bowls could sound better than the flats. The bowls are simply too bright and harsh, and I say this as someone who does not shy away from a good clean high end that some characterize as overly bright (Krell in particular). I wonder how many people have listened to, or even posted reviews of, the RS-1, and rejected them as harsh and unlistenable, based on the bowls and not the flats. The difference is so enormous that it is meaningless to read someone's review of the RS-1 (and presumably any other Grado headphone) without knowing what pads they are using

With these phones it can be really down to your system. I was having a real hard time listing to the bowls, same things to bright and very fatiguing. I got power conditioning and very high end interconnect and pinkfloyd up the antes with my amp. Now with the bowls I can listen for hours on end with no problems sound so sweet. I also have the flats but never use them as the sound is very flat, compressed and looses a three dimensional feel that the bowls give you. I think that Grado did use the bowls knowing they would give the best sound, but as said earlier they need a system that will match well with them. On hearing the bowls full potential, I am sure a lot of people would be convinced that they are the way to go.

 

[Kirosia]

I prefer bowls overall to flats, but each has their advantages. Flats are more comfy, and the sound is less painful. Bowls have a bigger SS and don't make you the performer.

 

[greenhorn]

A good move from Grado Labs would be to provide both bowls & flats for each pair of cans. At least for the rather expensive ones.

 

[Permonic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenhorn A good move from Grado Labs would be to provide both bowls & flats for each pair of cans. At least for the rather expensive ones.

Great idea! Pad rolling available directly from the package.

 

[jbunniii]

Quote:

Originally Posted by acs236 How much more midbass are you finding with the flats? I have the RS-2s and like the over sonic balance, particularly the amount of bass. I wouldn't want to increase it too much, but I keep hearing about how much better the flats are. If possible, please compare the midbass with the flats to the HD600. I used to own a 580 (and now own the HD650) and it had to much misbass for me. The 650s, in my opinion, solved that problem. So any compirson between the midbass on the RS-1 w/ flats and the HD600 would be very help ful to me.

After listening to the RS-1 for much of the evening last night, I switched to the HD-600, and the bass sounded almost anemic by comparison. Part of that, no doubt, is the much more "distant" soundstage of the Sennheisers, and part of it is that the Grados seem to invite you to play them more loudly than the Senns, but unquestionably the RS-1 with flats has a big mid-bass hump compared with the Senns. If you think the latter have too much mid-bass, you may not like the RS-1.

I like both, for different reasons: the Senns seem much more detailed and neutral, very musical but always a bit reserved, in the sense that you are somewhat distanced from the performance. It has been said that listening to Grados is more like being on stage with the performers, and seems fairly accurate to me -- you sacrifice some of the clinical precision for a sense of being right in the midst of things. Also, the Senns don't really like playing rock and roll really loudly, and often seem to lack a certain "kick" with drums and bass, whereas the Grados thrive on this, at the expense of more exaggerated bass. I like having both sets of headphones, because they give very different, but valid, perspectives on the same recording.

 

[jbunniii]

Quote:

Originally Posted by acs236 How much more midbass are you finding with the flats? I have the RS-2s and like the over sonic balance, particularly the amount of bass. I wouldn't want to increase it too much, but I keep hearing about how much better the flats are. If possible, please compare the midbass with the flats to the HD600. I used to own a 580 (and now own the HD650) and it had to much misbass for me. The 650s, in my opinion, solved that problem. So any compirson between the midbass on the RS-1 w/ flats and the HD600 would be very help ful to me.

I should add two things: first, I haven't listened to either the HD-580 or the HD-650, so my comments about the Sennheiser bass refer ONLY to the HD-600. Second, I haven't listened to the RS-2, and I also haven't done any methodical "before/after" listening with the RS-1, bowls versus flats. The sound is dramatically different with the flats, and part of the change is much less harsh highs and upper midrange, part of it is increased bass, part of it is an even more in-your-face presentation, but I need to spend more time comparing the two to say more. What I can say is that I often found it hard to sit through even one CD with the bowls, because of the brightness, which sometimes became downright shrill on certain recordings. With the flats, I listened to five or six CDs back-to-back last night. My ears were physically a bit sore afterwards, because the flats really aren't that comfortable pressing against your ears, but that's a perfect time to switch to the always-comfy Sennheisers.

 

[donlin]

jbunniii,

Congratulations on making the most effective upgrade in headphones. The flat pads transform the RS-1's from unusable to the best headphones I have heard. I have owned Grados since they first came out but have also used Sennn 600's & 650's for extended periods of time. I always come back to the RS-1's. It's great that they are currently available from Todd for a reasonable price! I would suggest getting one or two extra pairs because they do deteriorate over time (4-5 Years).

 

[MagusG]

Bowls suck, Flats rawk, soundstage is for speakers.
-Mag

 

[kugino]

i like flats, but that is not the leaning of everyone on head-fi...uscgoose, i believe, is a bowls guy, as are a number of others. contrary to what kirosia said, the bowls are much more comfortable, IMHO...

 

[MagusG]

Quote:

i like flats, but that is not the leaning of everyone on head-fi

I gotta disagree with that. Yeah, some people prefer bowls, but I think a LOT more prefer the flats or vwaps. If you don't like the comfort of flats(They don't bother me in the least), try some vwap pads, they are very similar but just a lil more comfy.
-Mag

 

[jbunniii]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donlin jbunniii, Congratulations on making the most effective upgrade in headphones. The flat pads transform the RS-1's from unusable to the best headphones I have heard. I have owned Grados since they first came out but have also used Sennn 600's & 650's for extended periods of time. I always come back to the RS-1's. It's great that they are currently available from Todd for a reasonable price! I would suggest getting one or two extra pairs because they do deteriorate over time (4-5 Years).

You mentioned in another thread that the RS-1's do not like the Headroom Max amp. I am powering mine with the Home Headroom, which I expect has a similar sonic signature to the Max, which I have not heard. Would you mind elaborating? What does upgrading from a Headroom amp to, for example, the Aural Audio Audition buy? Does the latter also play nicely with Sennheiser HD-600's? I am not averse to the idea of upgrading my headphone amp if there is a significant improvement in sound with both headphones I am using. For that matter, perhaps I should upgrade my old-skool CD player...

-jbunniii
Cal Audio Labs Icon Mk II -> Home Headroom -> [RS-1 with flats | HD-600]