[fjrabon]

  I rarely ever go over 70 while listening to the TH-X00s through the m9XX. I can't imagine what is causing such low output.

from the fact that he's saying he has driven his Mojo to the point of clipping while still listening, I don't think it's low output.  I think he really listens that loudly.  When I had the mojo for about a month, I was never able to get it even remotely close to clipping with either the HE400i or THX00 while still having it anywhere near my ears.  

 

[PopZeus]

 
from the fact that he's saying he has driven his Mojo to the point of clipping while still listening, I don't think it's low output.  I think he really listens that loudly.  When I had the mojo for about a month, I was never able to get it even remotely close to clipping with either the HE400i or THX00 while still having it anywhere near my ears.  

 
Yikes, that sucks. I guess I'm assuming that it'd be obvious if one was going deaf. As in, you'd be asking people to repeat themselves constantly. I'm speaking from personal experience here...

 

[fjrabon]

Yikes, that sucks. I guess I'm assuming that it'd be obvious if one was going deaf. As in, you'd be asking people to repeat themselves constantly. I'm speaking from personal experience here...

Some people do have a larger range of "acceptable hearing levels" than others. I think I'm unfortunate in that I have a fairly narrow band between "sounds clear" and "way too loud." When you listen to loud music your ears actually go into "protect mode" and for some people this internal attenuation is more extreme than others. Maybe his ears just go into protect mode more strongly, so he can hear normal conversations normally, but music listening needs louder volume. Either way, I just hope he's protecting his hearing. I have some mild tinnitus from doing live sound in my early 20s but have been lucky to only have only very very slight (normal for my age) hearing loss. Hearing loss can be so gradual that you don't notice until permanent damage is done though. I have my hearing pretty routinely checked. My ears don't go into "protect" mode as quickly or strongly as most, due to issues with my jaw and nasal passages, so they're more vulnerable to damage from loud noise than most. I haven't attended a live concert in 10 years without musicians' earplugs.

 

[CoFire]

I'm using audrivana out of my MacBook 12 retina. Same with iPhone. Theres No issues with volume. With the same source using a mojo I can get acceptable volumes around halfway through its power and anywhere above the 'double white' my 400i's go into clipping, but the grace isn't able to power the 400i's to even near the point of clipping.. I prefer the sound signature of the m9xx though. But my only grievance is its power output. Is it possible that I maybe got a faulty unit or something? Its running 1.02 firmware right now.

Did you make sure there is no other master volume control? I can right click on the volume icon in lower right of the screen, maximize volume there, then maximize volume in my player, then control volume on the m9XX. I'm sure this is obvious, but never hurts to double check.

 

[Spork67]

 

 
from the fact that he's saying he has driven his Mojo to the point of clipping while still listening, I don't think it's low output.  I think he really listens that loudly.  When I had the mojo for about a month, I was never able to get it even remotely close to clipping with either the HE400i or THX00 while still having it anywhere near my ears.  

 
Yikes, that sucks. I guess I'm assuming that it'd be obvious if one was going deaf. As in, you'd be asking people to repeat themselves constantly. I'm speaking from personal experience here...

WHAT DID YOU SAY??? 

 

[faw88]

LOL, Relax guys. I'm not going deaf anytime soon, hopefully. I just like listening to music at louder volumes than many people. But I know about the resultant hearing loss. Hence I phase out the loud sessions to once a week. everyone has a different 'optimal volume'. Trust me, I have friends who listen even louder. at volumes which make me immediately take the headphones off. so its different for everyone. They're not deaf either. Different people are simply used to different volumes. Like fjrabon said, you have a muscle inside your ear called 'stapedius' which contracts to dampen the impact of sound waves reflexively. so it prevents damage to the little bones in your ears as well as the tympanic membrane and the hair cells. The 'reflex' behavior and the 'tone' of this varies across different people. For ex, If you have a condition known as bell's palsy which results from damage to the facial nerve (which also supplies the stapedius), you get a loss of tone in that muscle which results in 'Hyperacusis' in which even the lowest sounds are perceived as deafeningly loud.

 

[fjrabon]

This also points out why the generalized "can X amp power Y headphone" you see all the time on head-fi is beyond silly. By far the most important thing to know when choosing an amp is how loudly a person desires to listen. Because differences there can mean differences of literally a thousand times more or less power needed. Without establishing how loud your average spl is, what the average dynamic range of your music is and how much headroom you need, it's impossible to answer "will this amp adequately power my headphones?" For me, about the only headphone the m9XX can't adequately power is the HE6 and the abyss. Every other headphone I've tried: 600 ohm Beyerdynamics, HD800, HE560, K712, etc were all adequately powered by the m9XX FOR ME. Then if you turn to faw88, they barely provide adequate power for his THX00 and wouldn't be even close for something like a 300 ohm Sennheiser. It all comes down to the fact that when he's listening he's using literally a thousand times more power than I do.

 

[faw88]

This also points out why the generalized "can X amp power Y headphone" you see all the time on head-fi is beyond silly. By far the most important thing to know when choosing an amp is how loudly a person desires to listen. Because differences there can mean differences of literally a thousand times more or less power needed. Without establishing how loud your average spl is, what the average dynamic range of your music is and how much headroom you need, it's impossible to answer "will this amp adequately power my headphones?" For me, about the only headphone the m9XX can't adequately power is the HE6 and the abyss. Every other headphone I've tried: 600 ohm Beyerdynamics, HD800, HE560, K712, etc were all adequately powered by the m9XX FOR ME. Then if you turn to faw88, they barely provide adequate power for his THX00 and wouldn't be even close for something like a 300 ohm Sennheiser. It all comes down to the fact that when he's listening he's using literally a thousand times more power than I do.

Indeed. Drivability is a very subjective issue. Anyways, I'll have to go for a Jot then i think. Thanks for the advise. 

 

[JamieCole]

I'm fairly excited as I have a friend who's going to loan me a Mojo for a direct comparison to the m9XX. I've listened to the Mojo (and Hugo) a few times, but never in direct comparison to the Grace. It should a fun few days... I don't care much for the design of the Mojo as I don't want/need the portability, so it's not going to be a comparison for replacement. I do, however, like the look and feel of the Hugo but I think it's overpriced for the way it sounds. It'll be interesting to watch the used market with respect to the o.g. Hugo once the latest incarnation ships. 
 
It would be cool to throw in a Mimby/Magni . For the price and form factor, it seems the Schiit combo is the direct challenger to the m9XX. More thoughts later...
 
Now, when's Roon 1.3 going to drop... 

 

[John Q Lin]

I tried the mojo today with th900, I thought the grace design m9xx was better pair.

 

[mandrake50]

 

Looks good! Thanks!

The liquid carbon isn't significantly more powerful than the m9XX.

Alex posted at one point that the LC would do 2.8 watts into 50 ohms... Meaning with music peaks (headroom). He did say that it would not maintain that on sine wave signals due to power dissipation (heat) in the small unit. So, what, 4 db more output.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/761088/cavalli-audios-liquid-carbon-a-599-cavalli-amp/1485
I wanted to talk about power output too. I've been holding back on you guys on the power output of the amp. Only a little though.
 
I've spec'd the amp a 1.5W continuous into 50R. In fact, it will do about 2.8W continuous into 50R.
 
Now, keep in mind that 1.5W and especially 2,8W is a lot of power. I don't know any headphones where this won't ring your bell and in most headphones it would be damaging.
 
However, what you really need the power for is, as you all know, the transients. Most of the time you're listening at fairly low power levels, but when the music creates a strong transient you need the amp to be able to respond.
 
The Carbon can respond with much more power than 1.5W. Also, we measured about .04% THD with 1kHz in driving 47.5R at 2.8W.
 
 
Now, you may be wondering can you use all of that 2.8W. And the answer is, if we were talking about sine waves, no. This is because the Carbon is so small that is has limited power dissipation capacity. This is really why I originally said 1.5W. Because this safe.
 
However, if the 2.8W only comes into play when you need it, the PD capacity is good enough.
 
I am sure he means from the balanced outputs.
 
Not far off from the Jot ratings. Though Schitt does not mention anything about continuous power... just RMS (for how long?) last I looked.
 
Your argument still holds though. Still not close to what is needed for the levels he listens at... for the given desired headroom. especially.

 

[fjrabon]

 
Alex posted at one point that the LC would do 2.8 watts into 50 ohms... Meaning with music peaks (headroom). He did say that it would not maintain that on sine wave signals due to power dissipation (heat) in the small unit. So, what, 4 db more output.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/761088/cavalli-audios-liquid-carbon-a-599-cavalli-amp/1485
I wanted to talk about power output too. I've been holding back on you guys on the power output of the amp. Only a little though.
 
I've spec'd the amp a 1.5W continuous into 50R. In fact, it will do about 2.8W continuous into 50R.
 
Now, keep in mind that 1.5W and especially 2,8W is a lot of power. I don't know any headphones where this won't ring your bell and in most headphones it would be damaging.
 
However, what you really need the power for is, as you all know, the transients. Most of the time you're listening at fairly low power levels, but when the music creates a strong transient you need the amp to be able to respond.
 
The Carbon can respond with much more power than 1.5W. Also, we measured about .04% THD with 1kHz in driving 47.5R at 2.8W.
 
 
Now, you may be wondering can you use all of that 2.8W. And the answer is, if we were talking about sine waves, no. This is because the Carbon is so small that is has limited power dissipation capacity. This is really why I originally said 1.5W. Because this safe.
 
However, if the 2.8W only comes into play when you need it, the PD capacity is good enough.
 
I am sure he means from the balanced outputs.
 
Not far off from the Jot ratings. Though Schitt does not mention anything about continuous power... just RMS (for how long?) last I looked.
 
Your argument still holds though. Still not close to what is needed for the levels he listens at... for the given desired headroom. especially.

yeah, finding specs on power can be frustrating because every manufacturer has different definitions that can be very important.  For some it's the absolute amount of power the amp can send, period.  For others it's the highest amount it can maintain over a specified length of time, for others, it's the highest amount it can send and stay below a certain THD ceiling.  We more or less just have to take the amp makers at their word, and pretend like the measures are the same between units, unfortunately.  At least until you just hear the amp and decide for yourself.  That's why reading off spec sheets can be tricky.  It's also why I hate when people on here just cite mW ratings and say "more power = better!!!"
 
That being said, the m9XX can basically give all of its 1 watt peak power distortion free and without missing the transients.  Grace seem to be one of the more conservative makers when it comes to power ratings as far as not overstating capabilities.  In fact, the volume knob on the Grace is such that it won't even let you run out of power.  99.5 is the setting where at peak input level, the output level still wouldn't clip on the m9XX.  
 
The other aspect, as you hint, is that while 1 watt and 2.8 watts, while it sounds like WAAAAAYYYYYY more power, actually isn't much more power.  Especially if the 2.8 watts can't be maintained and causes heat dissipation issues.  That probably only means a difference of 2-3 dB in average listening levels, and 4dB in ability of peak, occasional loudness.  
 
This is why some people use speaker taps.  Some listeners need like 10 watts to get their music to the ear crushing levels they desire with appropriate head room.  
 
More than very occasional, extremely brief sessions at the 100dB+ levels we are talking about WILL damage your hearing eventually.  I don't like chastising people on here too much for their volume levels, but for others, it's just not safe to listen at that level regularly (i.e. more than once a month, on accident, for under a minute).  Everybody's ears are different, sure, but that just means the damage will happen at different rates at those levels.  No matter how good your ear is at protecting itself, 100dB is damaging your hearing, no ifs, ands or buts.  The only question is: is it damaging at such a rate that you'll go effectively deaf by 60 years old or 80 years old (or before medical science develops perfect cochlear implants).

 

[JamieCole]

I tried the mojo today with th900, I thought the grace design m9xx was better pair.

 
I'm excited to try the Mojo with the 900's. I recall it being a tad bit smoother than the m9XX, but my memory could be playing tricks on me. Personally, I enjoy the treble extension and sparkle of the 900's and don't want to smooth/round it off too much. Regardless, it'll be fun having them next to each other for a listen.
 
In other news, I just purchased a shiny new Surface Book. 

 Unfortunately, it comes stock with the Windows Anniversary update that requires driver signature. The current iteration of Xmos drivers do not meet the requirements and, for now, the m9XX is stuck is USB 1.0 mode. 

 The driver signature check/profile/process can be suspended temporarily, so I (or you) can go about doing so when the need for a high-res listening session comes about. USB 2.0 support is coming soon to a Windows update near us (and is currently available for those on the insider builds) and Grace seems to be working with Xmos to resolve the issue outside of windows as well. 

 
http://www.gracedesign.com/forums/index.php?p=/discussion/9/windows-10-anniversary-update#latest
 
USB 2.0 driver issues aside, the Surface Book is a fantastic bit of kit. I'm a previous Mac Book Pro user of about 14 or so years. It's worth checking out if you're in the market. 
 
Cheers!

 

[Roger Gu]

Any idea about how often this drop is open? I just came across this one and the drop is not active now. Trying to figure out how long I will need to wait, or just find an alternative from Schiit?

 

[WilliamLeonhart]

  Any idea about how often this drop is open? I just came across this one and the drop is not active now. Trying to figure out how long I will need to wait, or just find an alternative from Schiit?

I can't tell exactly how often it is, but it's among the more often ones on Massdrop. Last year when I decided to get it I missed the drop by 2 or 3 days, but the wait was less than 2 weeks. I don't think you'd have to wait that long.
 
IME Schiit just don't compare to the m9xx.