Got into vinyl, my first impressions.
Dec 22, 2008 at 9:36 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 39

Shike

Headphoneus Supremus
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Greetings everyone,

So I recently decided to get into vinyl. I picked up a NAD 5020A with a Ortofon M20E Super cart and hooked it up to a TC-760LC preamp. I finally got a chance to really give it a listen and give my impressions.

Where to begin? The bass was moderately improved and the highs didn't seem as bright, but beyond that I have a hard time justifying it. I give the nod that there was a moderate improvement in texture too, but it wasn't nearly as resounding as I had expected.

Is this what I should expect from the system, or is there really meant to be a large jump? Is the cartridge too dated to really show the benefits? I'm a bit lost wondering where to go next . . .
 
Dec 22, 2008 at 10:29 AM Post #2 of 39
They say you should learn to crawl before you try to walk. My first turntable set up cost me less than £100. The mat alone on my current turntable cost £1000. I kid you not. It's a Micro Seiki CU-180 mat. So don't feel down and disappointed by your first go. It is going to teach you how to handle a turntable rig, how to set up weight, arm, etc, and how to do tweaking. Once you have got the hang if that, then you can splash out on expensive and delicate high-end gear. Have you ever seen a grown man cry after breaking the stylus on a U$1000 cartridge? I have, so don't be disappointed with your M20E.
 
Dec 22, 2008 at 2:33 PM Post #3 of 39
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Greetings everyone,

So I recently decided to get into vinyl. I picked up a NAD 5020A with a Ortofon M20E Super cart and hooked it up to a TC-760LC preamp.



What are you comparing it to? this was NAD's first deck ever I think and it's ok but nothing special. A good entry into vinyl but pretty basic budget deck by the standards of the day. The next one they made with the flat tonarm was a bit of a minor classic as it was dirt cheap but it's really the 522 (rebadged Rega clone) decks which are the NAD to go for.

Is the stylus on the cart the original one or newly fitted ? if not I'd get a new cart. The arm is of medium mass so any modern cart will work just fine. Get one of the new Ortofon 2M Series which are very good value and will show you a little more what a turntable can sound like.

Make sure you out the deck on it's own islolated surface, preferably a wall shelf or light rigid table ideally on a concrete floor.
 
Dec 22, 2008 at 2:39 PM Post #4 of 39
And dare I say that it is hard to know what you should be hearing when we don't even know what albums you are listening to.

Like CD, not everything issued on vinyl is reference quality material.

--Jerome
 
Dec 22, 2008 at 5:10 PM Post #5 of 39
Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Is the stylus on the cart the original one or newly fitted ? if not I'd get a new cart. The arm is of medium mass so any modern cart will work just fine. Get one of the new Ortofon 2M Series which are very good value and will show you a little more what a turntable can sound like.


It's the original . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsaliga
And dare I say that it is hard to know what you should be hearing when we don't even know what albums you are listening to.

Like CD, not everything issued on vinyl is reference quality material.

--Jerome



Perfect Circle, Mer de Noms.
 
Dec 22, 2008 at 9:52 PM Post #6 of 39
You're likely not going to get any additional satisfaction out of upgrading your kit. It doesn't sound like there is anything particularly wrong with what you heard. A better cartridge would improve the high end response, but the whole texture/detail/emotion thing is way blown out of proportion by vinyl lovers.

The best vinyl I have sounds, well, CD-like.
 
Dec 23, 2008 at 12:08 AM Post #7 of 39
Quote:

Originally Posted by Publius /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You're likely not going to get any additional satisfaction out of upgrading your kit. It doesn't sound like there is anything particularly wrong with what you heard. A better cartridge would improve the high end response, but the whole texture/detail/emotion thing is way blown out of proportion by vinyl lovers.

The best vinyl I have sounds, well, CD-like.



I would have to agree with that. I have spent monumental amounts of money on vinyl and vinyl equipment over the last 18 months and quite honestly I now wish I hadn't.

After numerous petty upgrades I ended with with a Project RPM5, Ortofon Rondo Red cartridge and Project Tubebox II with expensive NOS Brimar tubes - only to find that I got much more satisfaction listening to live broadcasts or recorded live performances on analogue FM radio.

Half the LPs I bought sounded no better or noticably worse than their digital counterparts, though there were ocassions when the potential of my playback system was realised when I ran into a well pressed and well mastered LP. But this was the exception rather than the rule. Maybe 10% of pressings qualified in this way.

Then there are all the inherent problems of vinyl - faulty pressings, the costs associated with replacing them, tracking issues, noise issues, static issues and the almost inevitable decrease of playback fidelity and frequency response at the end of a side. Not to mention the overall cost of maintaining the setup. My Rondo would have had a limited lifespan after which I would have had to fork out a heap of money to buy another cartridge. And anything less than what I had didn't sound good enough to warrant listening to.

Then there is just the cost of collecting vinyl if you don't already have a big collection. It might be fine if all you care about are bargain bin second hand items tht you can pay for and collect yourself, but if you are after specific audiophile pressings they are very expensive to buy and have shipped.

And to cap it all off, vinyl doesn't even sound accurate any more. If a live performance is the benchmark, all vinyl I ever heard was just loaded with harmonic and intermodulation distortion that excessively coloured the sound and just made it unrealistic to listen to.

Mind you, most CDs I own also sound unrealistic, as do high resolution digital recordings too. I tend to live by a rule that 85% of listening pleasure is gained or lost by the person who hangs the microphones and works the mixing desk at the initial recording. 10% is the gear we use (assuming it is not garbage) and 5% is the potential or otherwise of the format.

So now I listen almost exclusively to live or recorded live concerts on analogue FM radio. To my ears these approach a much higher level of realism than I have ever experienced with vinyl or CD at a much lower cost and I don't have the hassle of buying and maintaining a collection of recordings and the associated playback equipment. I n view of what I have written above, I can only really surmise that the live radio braodcasts sound better because they better replicate the listening conditions at a live concert (i.e the venue is full of an audience - so the acoustics change - and it is usually more difficult to stuff microphones far too close to the musicians - something which seems to be done way too frequently in studio recordings).

I've gone from being one of the biggest vinyl advocates to realising that the only thing attractive to vinyl is all that distortion and colouration. Because the better the playback system, the more it sounds like...um...digital. I would not have felt this way even a year ago, but exposure to high quality high resolution digital playback gear has completely changed my mind, though I still have a distaste for the sound of CD and only use them for background listening.
 
Dec 23, 2008 at 1:20 AM Post #8 of 39
Quote:

Originally Posted by ADD /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I've gone from being one of the biggest vinyl advocates to realising that the only thing attractive to vinyl is all that distortion and colouration.


Now there's a shocking reversal if there ever was one. You know that I have had a lot complaints about new vinyl pressings, but I'm still staying with it.

Though for classical music I am finding that I prefer 1/4" 4-track stereo tape.

--Jerome
 
Dec 23, 2008 at 2:09 AM Post #9 of 39
Thanks for the writeup, ADD. There's a lot to think about and I don't disagree with you that much.

One thing I particularly enjoy about vinyl is finding inexpensive second-hand records. That gives me access to lots of music I would have never experienced otherwise. True, not all of it is in pristine condition, but I find the majority of it good enough for me.

I very much agree about live FM broadcasts and playback. One of my favorite pieces of gear is an old all-tube stereo FM receiver. I tune in concerts and quality broadcasts when I can. The drawback is that you're limited to broadcast schedules and can't pick what's played. Still, far too few people here use and enjoy FM tuners - they're an overlooked high quality source.

I don't think the limited edition $50 audiophile LPs are worth it. For each of those, there is usually a high quality Red Book or SACD version available under $20. I buy those instead.

But you raise a lot of valid points and I hope a lot of people read your post.
 
Dec 23, 2008 at 3:48 AM Post #10 of 39
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
One thing I particularly enjoy about vinyl is finding inexpensive second-hand records. That gives me access to lots of music I would have never experienced otherwise. True, not all of it is in pristine condition, but I find the majority of it good enough for me.


This is still the biggest attraction of vinyl for me. I just bought 200 classical LPs for 50 cents per record. Out of that lot about 90% of them were in wonderful NM condition. Not all of my buys are this good, but many of them are and it makes it very worthwhile.

Quote:

I don't think the limited edition $50 audiophile LPs are worth it. For each of those, there is usually a high quality Red Book or SACD version available under $20. I buy those instead.


For the most part I agree, but some of the Music Matters 45 RPM Blue Note reissues that are mastered by Kevin Gray and Steve Hoffman aren't available on SACD and there are no plans to release them on a digital format. So you either buy the LPs or give it a pass. The Analog Productions Blue Note SACDs are $30 and the 45 RPM LPs are $50 (I have bought more than a few of them). I agree that the value proposition is not particularly high, but the alternative is to buy the RVG Remasters on CD and the quality of those is very spotty at best (and I am being kind here). Many of them are mastered hot, particularly from 2003 and up. Of course, you can always run down original vinyl pressings but anything in really nice shape from Blue Note's catalog from the late 1950s through the mid 1960s is most likely going to cost you several times more than the 45 RPM reissues.

The audiophile labels that are offering Blue Note SACDs are clearly pushing vinyl. Some of the early 45 RPM vinyl is already sold out and past the sales cycle...and the SACDs of those titles, while promised, still have not been released. So the situation with the Blue Note catalog is a mess.

And there is the problem of quality control at RTI, which is a subject I have brought up repeatedly. The audiophile community is not being especially well served when people pony up $50 for a pair of 45 RPM records and they come out of the jacket scratched, discolored due to the records being sleeved before they are properly cooled, or just plain bad and noisy pressings, you name it.

To be fair, it is not all bad. I have had a great experience with Speakers Corner. Granted, $34.95 for a 180g vinyl record is not exactly cheap, but I have only had one bad record out of 40 purchased that I had to send back. The mastering has been uniformly superb, and they keep releasing a lot of important jazz titles from Verve and Impulse. As long as they maintain the quality level I will continue to support them with purchases.

Vinyl can most certainly be a tough love at times, depending on what kind of music suits your fancy.

--Jerome
 
Dec 23, 2008 at 7:11 AM Post #11 of 39
Well I think notwithstanding what I wrote above, the last straw for me has been the worldwide economic downturn. As the last batch of LPs I bought (a grand total of three audiophile reissues I think) left a dent to the tune of a whopping $200 on my CC, I realised that vinyl needed to be delivering to me something pretty special and amazing to justify that. And it wasn't.

I sold all my gear recently on eBay and as was actually pretty happy with the prices I got - as it turned out I lost very little on my actual gear. The major wastage over the last 18 months has been on the records themselves because so many were faulty or just not up to the quality standards I expected.

With some of the money I got from the sale I bought a Project Tuner Box (since I loved my Tubebox and Speedbox) and then paid a professional antenna installer to put up an FM antenna. All up that cost me what I got for the turntable and speedbox.

Now I couldn't be happier and honestly the fact that I no longer "drive the schedule" doesn't worry me in the slightest because the programming on ABC Classic FM is absolutely top-notch. I feel like I have an endless record collection, but more importanly I have tapped into my greatest love of all - listening to live or recorded live broadcasts. I get to "go" to all these fantastic concerts all over the world, especially the ones out of Europe - all in astonishingly good sound that my turntable could only dream about when playing it's absolutely best pressings. Infact I have to be honest - the only thing vinyl to my ears has over these live or recorded live broadcasts is the dynamic range. But that is a choice of the broadcaster - they employ a limiter to prevent overmodulation of the transmitter - so there is perhaps about 6 - 8 dB loss of total dynamic range compared to an LP.

Anyway, after turfing everything I was left with a small record collection which I am still deciding what to do with. I originally had about 60 LPs - all of them audiophile pressings bought since late 2007. To echo jsaliga's comments about the quality of pressings, I actually ended up either turfing or giving away half of them. Simply because the pressings were not up to my very high standards and I was sick of trying to fruitlessly search for better ones. You would get a dud pressing and all of them out the batch were duds too.

But that does mean I now have about 32 classical audiophile LPs potentially for sale that really are as good as it gets for modern pressings. Believe it or not, one of them is actually a Classic Records release!!! Can you believe it!!!!?????
tongue_smile.gif
Yes, only one Classic Records pressing out of the dozen plus I bought passed muster, but even it - like all of them, are still not 100% perfect. They are just representative of the best that modern pressings have to offer.
 
Dec 23, 2008 at 8:32 AM Post #12 of 39
FM is good, as long as the sources are lossless
smily_headphones1.gif
I'm pretty sure that my local classical station, while it does program some good stuff, sources its syndicated content from MP3.

I once categorized lists of pro- and anti-vinyl arguments that might be worth reading. I think that a lot of the advantages and disadvantages have nothing to do with the actual audio quality, and that is important to keep in mind.

It seems that at least two people on Head-Fi have now taken the fall on crappy audiophile pressings. You know what they say about pioneers
wink.gif
 
Dec 23, 2008 at 8:47 AM Post #13 of 39
Quote:

Originally Posted by jsaliga /img/forum/go_quote.gif
And there is the problem of quality control at RTI, which is a subject I have brought up repeatedly. The audiophile community is not being especially well served when people pony up $50 for a pair of 45 RPM records and they come out of the jacket scratched, discolored due to the records being sleeved before they are properly cooled, or just plain bad and noisy pressings, you name it.


Part of this is their own damn fault (both the audiophiles and the labels) for demanding 180g/200g pressings. I guarantee you that if audiophile releases moved to 135g or even 90g, QC would improve dramatically. Pressing times would go down, fills would be more consistent, more time would be available for packaging, material costs would go down...

I think we're in a little bit of a weird situation right now, where RTI and other plants are being driven past capacity (with a corresponding loss of quality), and yet the market is still considered tenuous enough that additional production is not coming online. Same thing with lacquer manufacture.

Quote:

To be fair, it is not all bad. I have had a great experience with Speakers Corner. Granted, $34.95 for a 180g vinyl record is not exactly cheap, but I have only had one bad record out of 40 purchased that I had to send back. The mastering has been uniformly superb, and they keep releasing a lot of important jazz titles from Verve and Impulse. As long as they maintain the quality level I will continue to support them with purchases.


The other complicating factor with these reissues is the collection factor (which notably skews the value of Mofi releases). There's a significant chance, if the reissue is limited edition, that the record value will accrue over time. In that context, if $15 is a going rate for a "non-collector's" album, $35 could actually be a really good deal for a collector's edition. Of course, that depends on if the record will be worth anything 10 years from now....
 
Dec 23, 2008 at 9:38 AM Post #14 of 39
Quote:

Originally Posted by Publius /img/forum/go_quote.gif
FM is good, as long as the sources are lossless
smily_headphones1.gif



ABC Classic FM had an article about this in their magazine a couple of years ago. They use FLAC though I am not sure of the delivery method so to speak. I wouldn't mind touring their studios were such a thing possible.
 
Dec 23, 2008 at 11:02 AM Post #15 of 39
Quote:

Originally Posted by ADD /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I sold all my gear recently on eBay and as was actually pretty happy with the prices I got - as it turned out I lost very little on my actual gear. The major wastage over the last 18 months has been on the records themselves because so many were faulty or just not up to the quality standards I expected.

With some of the money I got from the sale I bought a Project Tuner Box (since I loved my Tubebox and Speedbox) and then paid a professional antenna installer to put up an FM antenna. All up that cost me what I got for the turntable and speedbox.



that's a shame, I'm not sure you could say Pro-Ject are the last word in vinyl replay but I don't really see myself living without being able to play any source analogue or digital within reason, as there are always great performances out there which may never see the light of day again. It does seem as though you are on a bit of a quest though.

FM radio can be great. In the UK (BBC) Radio 3 live broadcasts are outstanding so long as you have a decent tuner and a good aerial. I often record them to open reel or DAT.

Old Japanese tuners from the 1970s are amongst the best value for money, the peak of the technology really and there are plenty of guys out there modding them. Check out Tuner Information Center - Vintage Stereo Tuners. The best I've ever heard though has to be Naim which are still expensive 2nd hand. Then there are those who swear by the Leak Troughline with various aftermarket stereo decoders. Hopefully they won't turn off the FM anytime soon as the DAB in the UK is very poor quality MP2 at low bandwidths.

Internet radio is something I am looking into as the codecs are more flexible and Tangent have a new full sized separate do it all tuner called the Net 200 which looks promising.
 

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