[ampgalore]

I was actually contemplating selling my Kenwood shelf system for a while now. But now I did this comparison between the Kenwood and the Grace, I am leaning towards keeping it

I know part of the problem has to be with my source and my recordings. But I have a hard time getting into classical music (aside from a few pieces), I mostly listen to soft rock, jpop.

 

[markl]

Quote:

Everybody's been talking about the source/recording quality being the problem here. Can that be right? Everything I've heard about the Grace would indicate that it is a *highly* revealing amp--if the source or recording doesn't measure up, it should be noticeable. Namely, it should sound crappy, correct?? The difference between amps should still be readily detectable.

The problem is, your amp can only ever be as good as the source signal it's being fed. If there are all kinds of cheap components in the signal path before it hands that signal off to your over-built, pristine amplifier, the sound will still only ever be as good as those weak components in the source generating the input. If there is an upper limit on what the source can do, that upper limit becomes the upper limit on what your amp can do (and vice-versa of course) and hence your whole system. No amp can "improve" the sound per se, or surgically dig in to the signal and remove all the nasties and imperfections introduced by the source, "clean up" the signal and magically make it pristine and beautiful. All it's doing is amplifying the incoming signal *as is*.

 

[ampgalore]

But I thought using the toslink optical out, I am bypassing the shelf system's built in DAC. I know shelf system is not a great transport, has jitters and other problems, but isn't using the optical out at least better than using the pre-out on the shelf system?

 

[prisoner #6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl The problem is, your amp can only ever be as good as the source signal it's being fed. If there are all kinds of cheap components in the signal path before it hands that signal off to your over-built, pristine amplifier, the sound will still only ever be as good as those weak components in the source generating the input. If there is an upper limit on what the source can do, that upper limit becomes the upper limit on what your amp can do (and vice-versa of course) and hence your whole system. No amp can "improve" the sound per se, or surgically dig in to the signal and remove all the nasties and imperfections introduced by the source, "clean up" the signal and magically make it pristine and beautiful. All it's doing is amplifying the incoming signal *as is*.

I'm not sure I follow you, markl. As I understand it, this would indeed put a limit on how good a high-grade amp could be expected to sound with a poor-quality source. But does this explain why ampgalore would hear almost no difference between the Kenwood and the Grace? Given what you've said above about a good amp merely amplifying what it's fed, I would think that the Grace's higher resolution would make it even *more* clear that the source is sub-par--thus revealing the difference between it and the Kenwood even more transparently. Conversely, I would expect a lesser-quality amp, being less revealing, to obscure some of the deficiencies of the source. Wouldn't there still be clearly audible differences between the two amps? Is there something I'm missing here?

I know a lot of people bring their A-quality amps and headphones with them when they go searching for a source replacement, because they're confident that they will reveal the differences between different sources. If that's the case, wouldn't we expect a Grace amp to better reveal the limitations in the source it's being fed than a Kenwood??

 

[markl]

Quote:

But does this explain why ampgalore would hear almost no difference between the Kenwood and the Grace?

I was speaking generally to your comments about amplification and the ability of source to affect what you hear, and your seeming to question how much influence source/recording can have. From what I've read previously WRT to the DAC in the Grace is that it's just OK, but I haven't made an extensive study of that particular DAC/amp. Possible explanations for what ampgalore is experiencing when using the grace's DAC:

1. Grace's DAC is no better than the one in his Kenwood.
2. ampgalore's Kenwood is a lousy transport, introducing lots of jitter that negates the advantages of stepping up to the superior DAC in the Grace
3. ampgalore really does lack the "golden ears"

We know that ampgalore *can* hear differences in amps, he indicates, he did hear a difference with the XP-7, which he interpreted in a negative manner. I think there's a fourth possibility:

4. ampgalore has been conditioned by his Kenwood system to expect a certain sound, it has burned itself into his brain as his "reference". Anything that deviates from this reference to his perspective is more likely to be "wrong" than "better". The Grace sounds like his Kenwood system, therefore, there's nothing "wrong" with it.
Quote:

Conversely, I would expect a lesser-quality amp, being less revealing, to obscure some of the deficiencies of the source. Wouldn't there still be clearly audible differences between the two amps? Is there something I'm missing here?

A low quality amp can either add or subtract from the sound or both. It can subtract resolution but add no audible distortion, or it can maintain resolution but add splashiness, grain, hash, sibilance, bloated bass etc. Or it can have less resolution combined with added grain, edginess, hash, etc.

 

[doobooloo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ampgalore I mostly listen to soft rock, jpop.

Although I enjoy soft rock, jpop (and kpop

), I personally find some soft rock and all jpop/kpop stuff rather "low-fi" meaning it will sound good on more equipment. The thing is, most of it is synth or heavily compressed rock stuff anyway, what is "supposed" to sound good? Nobody knows, since there's no real reference to base the sounds to, right?

For me, I actually started liking classical and jazz a lot more as my system became more hi-fi. "Open-mic" recordings (I don't know if I'm using the term correctly) are hard to appreciate with poor equipment but IMO with good cans and good amplification the differences are so much more magnified than on compressed, artificial jpop stuff. Not that the music's bad, I like the suff as well.

But yeah. Just my 0.02.

 

[tom hankins]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover Looking at your profile I would lay the blame on your sources. With limited resolution even the best amps arent going to show much difference. Team source first has pointed this out many times to many members so prepare yourself when they show up.

AND WE ARE COMING!!! Your amps are waaaaaaay to nice to be used with a shelf system.

 

[Edwood]

Source.

Garbage -----> Amp----->Louder Garbage

-Ed

 

[ampgalore]

Puts on my flame retardant suit and hides in my closet...

Another reason that occured to me as I have listened to the Grace more and more is, with the Grace, I have been listening at really low volumes (afraid of hearing damage with such a powerful amp). With the HD600, the volume knob is usually at the 7 or 8 o'clock position on LOW gain. When I turn the volume higher, the soundstage, presence, detail, everything, just seems to be so much better, but also a lot louder. Could this be the reason?

What volume do you guys listen at? Am I paranoid about protecting my hearing?

 

[sacd lover]

Get a Radioshack spl meter and a test cd and set your volume around 85db and you will be fine.

 

[mulveling]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover Get a Radioshack spl meter and a test cd and set your volume around 85db and you will be fine.

I recommend this course of action as well. You're not wrong to be paranoid about your hearing.

The measuring part can be a bit tricky, though, since I don't have a dummy head and it's hard to determine how the headphone seal & ear canal gain will affect the actual sound pressure hitting your eardrum. For now I just place the microphone tip right next to the driver (in the case of my Senns, I place it gently against the layer of foam covering the driver, in the center); I figure that's a conservative way to estimate the actual SPL.

 

[DEMIW]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ampgalore Puts on my flame retardant suit and hides in my closet... Another reason that occured to me as I have listened to the Grace more and more is, with the Grace, I have been listening at really low volumes (afraid of hearing damage with such a powerful amp). With the HD600, the volume knob is usually at the 7 or 8 o'clock position on LOW gain. When I turn the volume higher, the soundstage, presence, detail, everything, just seems to be so much better, but also a lot louder. Could this be the reason? What volume do you guys listen at? Am I paranoid about protecting my hearing?

There is no reason to be afraid about hearing damage comparing to speakers listening to the same "PERCEIVED VOLUME". If you do experience temporary hearing loss, buzzes, ringing on your ears, it is time to crank down the volume...

 

[oneeyedhobbit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover Get a Radioshack spl meter and a test cd and set your volume around 85db and you will be fine.

With all due respect, thats ridiculous. Sure, 85 db might be safe, but it would kill my ears. Hearing is subjective to say, "heres the safety threshold, listen like this."

 

[ampgalore]

Thanks guys for all the advice on hearing protection. Someone either on this thread or another thread posted a link to this article on hearing damage, very informative.

http://headwize.com/articles/hearing_art.htm

I never knew that hearing can be so delicate. Sometimes I have trouble understandng dialogues when watching TV. My mom always tells me that I have the volume on too high, when I can barely understand the dialogue. I think I am already experiencing some form of hearing loss.

The SLP meter definitely sounds like a good idea. Will give that a try.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneeyedhobbit With all due respect, thats ridiculous. Sure, 85 db might be safe, but it would kill my ears. Hearing is subjective to say, "heres the safety threshold, listen like this."

Whats ridiculous? Thats a recommended safe level not an absolute. If its still to loud then turn it down more. What you dont want to do is go any louder. I said set the level "around 85db", not at 85db and 85 db only. Your trying to be to literal and missing the point.