[marflao]

Indiegogo may now call a collection agency if backers aren’t kept informed about delays.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/7/1...-backer-updates-may-call-collections-agencies

The response I got from IGG support is that we backers should get in touch with the campaigner, Larry, directly to request status updates and/or refunds due to the fact that the campaigns are already "in demand" status.

IGG definitely does not get in touch with Larry/LHL to mediate etc.

 

[Laseng]

Where are all the updates that was promised Sep 10, 2017?
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/pulse-analog-audio-components-headphones#/updates/all


Larry and I are going to work extremely hard on timely, accurate updates. We realize how important they are and that you placed your trust in us to deliver a product. You deserve to know what is happening with your money. We hope to be timely and are looking at simplifying the updates as well instead of doing targeted emails (we understand the complaints). Our goal for each is below:

Geek Wave: Bi-weekly (Sundays)

Geek Pulse: Monthly (date tbd)

Vi Dac: Monthly (date tbd)

Geek Source: Monthly (date tbd)

Pulse Analog: Monthly (date tbd)

Please note: there are some theories floating around that the new monthly updates coming from LH Labs are only due to new IGG rules. This isn't true – this was in the works right after I came on board, before the new IGG rules were unveiled.

 

[stuck limo]

Thanks for the responses, guys.

Your final Note only adds to your surreal post, Jarek: "Note: the answers of this survey won't necessarily mean our course of action either way." haha

We have a few certain members who like to twist anything I say, so now I can't say basically literally anything without some sort of disclaimer.

So I want a delivery date. I am willing to listen to one that is very generous in favor of LH Labs.

At this point no dates are being given, but the products are coming. Unfortunately, with the delays we face in manufacturing, it's very hard to give any sort of date/promise, unless you're wanting something like "June 1, 2025". I'll give all the responses to Larry though and we'll discuss them.

The main reason I asked is because I get tons of people demanding "exact dates of delivery" (including the conversation I had the other night) and it's impossible to give those, and I've stated multiple times in the updates, forums, etc. that there are no exact dates, but people seem to think our past history of providing dates and not meeting them doesn't exist.

These are products in development. There are delays, even on fully designed projects. These are not "finished" products. These take longer. I will let Larry know that people would like more updates and more general timelines, but I can't guarantee anything that will be guaranteed or released on timelines.

And refunds aren't going to happen (no matter how many times people ask). If we gave refunds to one person, we'd have to refund everyone else. According to my information, we also stated at the beginning of the campaign and IGG did too that refunds were not available. If we were to refund, then these projects would indefinitely delayed and that would be completely unfair to the people who do want these products finished at the fastest rate possible. Unfortunately, that's a reality of crowd-funding.

I do know Larry and the team are working on getting these projects done and shipped. When I get information regarding the status of the projects, I'll keep everyone updated.

Where are all the updates that was promised Sep 10, 2017?

I post them as I get them. Sometimes there's not a lot of information to even post, sometimes there is. I am asking for more updates.

 

[Laseng]

I post them as I get them. Sometimes there's not a lot of information to even post, sometimes there is. I am asking for more updates.

That's the big problem, nothing is happening.
There is no real progress on any of LH Labs products.
All products appeared to be closer to delivery for two years ago than they are today.

Example:
When I backed Pulse Tube HPA, it was almost ready for production, Expected delivery was Feb 23, 2015.
The only thing I have seen in these three years is an AutoCAD image of the PCB.

From update Jan 13, 2017.
The screen capture is the headphone amplifier PCB design we are about to send to PCB factory.

I can see no big Mundorf MCap EVO Silver Gold Oil on headphone amplifier PCB.
Does not seem to be space for two Mundorf MCap EVO Silver Gold Oil on PCB.
All PCBs must have conductive tracks, but it is missing here.
Can you get Larry Ho to show us a real picture of the PCB board in a update?
It is now about a year since it was send to PCB factory.

 

[Shawnb]

Where are all the updates that was promised Sep 10, 2017?
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/pulse-analog-audio-components-headphones#/updates/all


Larry and I are going to work extremely hard on timely, accurate updates. We realize how important they are and that you placed your trust in us to deliver a product. You deserve to know what is happening with your money. We hope to be timely and are looking at simplifying the updates as well instead of doing targeted emails (we understand the complaints). Our goal for each is below:

Geek Wave: Bi-weekly (Sundays)

Geek Pulse: Monthly (date tbd)

Vi Dac: Monthly (date tbd)

Geek Source: Monthly (date tbd)

Pulse Analog: Monthly (date tbd)

Please note: there are some theories floating around that the new monthly updates coming from LH Labs are only due to new IGG rules. This isn't true – this was in the works right after I came on board, before the new IGG rules were unveiled.

Geek Wave: Last update 7 days ago

Geek Pulse: Monthly: Last update 2 months ago

Vi Dac: Monthly: Last update 2 months ago

Geek Source: Monthly: Last update 2 months ago

Pulse Analog: Monthly: Last update 3 months ago

Geek Wave is the only one that's had updates for awhile and 2 of those were just updates about the BigCommerce stuff. So it was actually 3 months between actual updates.

 

[bernardperu]

We have a few certain members who like to twist anything I say, so now I can't say basically literally anything without some sort of disclaimer.

This whole issue is really becoming larger than fiction. Mike Moffat should read us and put together a piece. Perhaps, deep down, that is the main reason why all these posts keep me engaged: I love literature! (I am not kidding)

 

[bernardperu]

These are products in development. There are delays, even on fully designed projects. These are not "finished" products. These take longer. I will let Larry know that people would like more updates and more general timelines, but I can't guarantee anything that will be guaranteed or released on timelines.

This campaign by a competitor of yours delivered my item on time https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/hifi-skyn-iphone-case-made-for-music#/

The whole Indiegogo, Kickstarter, etc platform is based on "products on development." Do you think every other campaign is delivering 4+ years late? Come on, Jarek! Reply and entertain us with the surreal

 

[stuck limo]

This campaign by a competitor of yours delivered my item on time https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/hifi-skyn-iphone-case-made-for-music#/

The whole Indiegogo, Kickstarter, etc platform is based on "products on development." Do you think every other campaign is delivering 4+ years late? Come on, Jarek! Reply and entertain us with the surreal

Many many other campaigns are late. How late, I don't know. But this is a common situation with IGG and Kickstarter campaigns. The previous linked article even refers to late campaigns.

I was even discussing this with Larry - he is under the impression crowdfunding is going to die off, and crowdfunding is going to move to pre-orders. Part of the problem is the delays that other campaigns (not just us) are facing with hardware/manufacturing delays and failures. So this campaign is not alone in this. This is happening across the whole spectrum.

My honest advice is to not join any more crowdfunding campaigns if this is a concern. I personally only buy things after they're fully developed. I joined a campaign on Kickstarter for a travel bag, but they were ready to manufacture and ship immediately. I essentially just pre-ordered it. There were no issues, luckily.

 

[marflao]

But Pulse and Wave campaigns were both advertised with existing prototypes if I recall correctly.

Yeah... now somebody will mentioning the "crowd design" mayhem...

 

[stuck limo]

But Pulse and Wave campaigns were both advertised with existing prototypes if I recall correctly.

Yeah... now somebody will mentioning the "crowd design" mayhem...

Wave was redesigned like twice. There are no Pulse issues according to my knowledge and understanding. We're just waiting for factory production. Obviously, when we discuss issues and delays, we're talking about overall all the campaigns.

 

[jaywhar]

Had an interesting, lengthy discussion with a backer last night. Informal survey here: would you rather LH Labs provides dates of delivery (and possibly miss them), or would you rather we refrain from giving dates so we don't miss targets we possibly can't hit? And why?.

it's not missed dates that are the problem per se - it's that they're missed by truly astounding amounts and we're not given any information as to why (or even that something has gone wrong).

Obviously things can't be guaranteed to hit an exact date, but it seems reasonable to be in the general vicinity. eg: if you say I'm getting my delivery within weeks, then being off by one or two weeks is ok. If the timeframe is in months, and you're a month or two late, then that's also ok. When you say in April that I'll be receiving my pulse in the 3rd week of May and I still don't have my pulse more than two years later then there's a problem. The occasional catastrophic event might happen, but LHLabs has done this too many times - to get a delivery date horribly wrong once might be misfortune, twice (or more!) is gross incompetence or deceit.

So I'd like dates. They don't need to be specific (a month will do), but they need to be realistic and if something does go wrong we need to be told and why. I think the 'why' is really important now - this whole experience means I can't really trust LHLabs much and I need to see if their actions are reasonable.

 

[jaywhar]

If we were to refund, then these projects would indefinitely delayed and that would be completely unfair to the people who do want these products finished at the fastest rate possible. Unfortunately, that's a reality of crowd-funding..

If you're talking about other backers who still want their pulse, I don't believe it would make much of a difference - the economics of a batch of 100 boards vs a batch of 200 wouldn't be that far off.

If you're talking about backers of other LHLabs projects - pledges for the Pulses are for development of the Pulses.

... crowdfunding is going to die off, and crowdfunding is going to move to pre-orders.

I really fail to see the practical distinction between this campaign and a pre-order. I selected a perk that was for delivery of a product, and subsequently additional perks for specific upgrades. The fact that hundreds of backers have received their units indicates that design and manufacturing are possible, and LHLabs still clearly has money.

 

[Hercules]

Wave was redesigned like twice. There are no Pulse issues according to my knowledge and understanding. We're just waiting for factory production. Obviously, when we discuss issues and delays, we're talking about overall all the campaigns.

I believed Geek Source have a prototype and scale down from so call Da Vinci Source, and development cycle won't take too long, but I was wrong again, shame on me.....

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/20340-lh-labs-geek-source/

We've utilized technology from Light Harmonic's Da Vinci Source, a project that we began working on in 2012 and unveiled at the 2013 Consumer Electronics Show, pairing it with our world-renowned Da Vinci DAC. The results were stellar.

Just like Geek Pulse's relationship with Da Vinci DAC, Geek Source's core design is directly derived from our soon to be released ultra high end music server: Da Vinci Source (MSRP $12,999). Same concept, same core technology, same development team, dramatically different price.

 

[Hercules]

If you're talking about other backers who still want their pulse, I don't believe it would make much of a difference - the economics of a batch of 100 boards vs a batch of 200 wouldn't be that far off.

If you're talking about backers of other LHLabs projects - pledges for the Pulses are for development of the Pulses.




I really fail to see the practical distinction between this campaign and a pre-order. I selected a perk that was for delivery of a product, and subsequently additional perks for specific upgrades. The fact that hundreds of backers have received their units indicates that design and manufacturing are possible, and LHLabs still clearly has money.

My problems was while I'm waiting my pledges from LH Labs and tired by all missing deadline, I can't wait anymore and I have to buy another pieces of equipment, turn out I spent much more money than I planned, if I don't ever invested into LH Labs Projects, even LH Labs products arrived (if) sound superior, I still have to sell extra equipment away with discount. People asking for refund not ready totally lose of faith but really I don't need a extra equipment anymore with the time.

IGG/KS platforms were aimed to help startup with good ideas to raise up funding for realizing their ideas, but people abused the crowdfunding platform, turned into pre-order site, it's very irresponsible move, as if taking pre-order at their own webshop, it's purely a purchase action, refund is a must, but taking pre-order on KS/IGG just blurring the difference from crowdfunding, so call pseudo-crowdfunding to refuse any refund requests under KS/ISS Terms of uses.

Jarek maybe you are totally correct, Crowdfunding is dead, because of abusers.

 

[agisthos]

As soon as I got my Pulse S Infinity (there were only 20 made of that spec) I sold it in 2015 and have not thought about LHLABS in years.

I come on here, and despite it being the current year, it seems like 2014 all over again-- bad PCB production runs causing delays, products failing e.t.c
Is there really people still waiting for a Pulse to be delivered from the crowdfund campaign? Amazing. I feel for you guys, but it looks like LHlabs has run out of money.

I want to defend Larry Ho a bit... he was given an almost impossible, herculean task; to design 7-8 products at once. The Pulse alone had about 10 different variants. This would be a huge undertaking even for the larger audiophile manufacturers, but for a company like LHlabs they bit off more than they could chew.