[kunwar]

Just an observation but more and more, I am finding that people are forgetting the trio which defined 20th century conducting, what might the reasons be, I don't know but these guys are still the finest conductors in my book. There have been interpretations of various composers by other conductors since but they still stand head and shoulders above everyone.
There are of course Klemperer, Leibowitz and the like but hardly anyone with a repetoire that encompasses almost all the major composers.

What do you guys feel?
Also an opportunity to list and discuss their greatest recordings.
So list away

Kunwar

 

[Doc Sarvis]

My favorite Lenny is still the Shostakovich 7/1 set with the CSO.

 

[JayG]

There are two sides to this, I think. On the one hand, yes, the past greats like Furtwangler and Toscanini should never be forgotton and I think many people do overlook them because of the poor sound quality on most of their recordings and things like that. On the other hand, some people concentrate too much on great conductors of the past at the expense of some the the exceptional conductors that are still contributing to music today. What I am saying is that it's crucial to remember, recognize, and enjoy the genius of men like Toscanini and Furtwangler, but not to let the legend of their greatness eclipse the genius of other conducting masters that do not have as wide a reputation.

As far as Bernstein goes, I put him in a different category. I think his greatest contribution came in the form of getting more of the public involved in classical music and appealing to a wider audience. Granted, he was also largely responsible for bringing the works of composers like Mahler into the repertoire, but as far as a consistent delivery of great interpretations, he was not, in my opinion, anywhere near the same level as people like Furtwangler, or even the greatest conductors working today or during his own time.

-Jay

 

[daycart1]

It would be hard not to include Stokowski in that group. And probably a couple of others.
I think that among audiophiles these guys get a lot of play. In fact they might be excessively revered! Ditto for the great old pianists, etc..

On the other hand, I suppose that people generally pay less attention to classical music as time goes on...

 

[Bunnyears]

Let's not forget Mitropoulos and Barbirolli while we are chatting up the great lions of the first half of the 20th Century.

Jay,
For me, Bernstein will be first and foremost a composer (strange, no?). I adore his music for the Broadway stage, especially the music for Candide, On the Town and West Side Story. So many people denigrate the musical theater, but I'm sure that 100 years from now it will be as highly regarded as opera, especially the works of Richard Rodgers.

Daycart,
If Beethoven, Bach and Mozart haven't lost their popularity in 200 years, I doubt that they will ever fall from the consciousness of our culture. Just see how the Greek dramatists, even with so much of their work lost, have remained as esteemed now as they were in the ancient world. I have to be optimistic about this, great quality must always survive.

 

[LFF]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears Just see how the Greek dramatists, even with so much of their work lost, have remained as esteemed now as they were in the ancient world. I have to be optimistic about this, great quality must always survive.

I could not agree more! If the music is true quality music it will only see it's end when we all go deaf and can no longer physically interpret the divine sound waves written on paper by Beethoven, Brahms, Bach, Mozart and the like.

On that day my friends, life will have no purpose, no soul and no humanity.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LFF On that day my friends, life will have no purpose, no soul and no humanity.

ouch!

 

[juneamour]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunwar Just an observation but more and more, I am finding that people are forgetting the trio which defined 20th century conducting, what might the reasons be, I don't know but these guys are still the finest conductors in my book. There have been interpretations of various composers by other conductors since but they still stand head and shoulders above everyone. There are of course Klemperer, Leibowitz and the like but hardly anyone with a repetoire that encompasses almost all the major composers. What do you guys feel? Also an opportunity to list and discuss their greatest recordings. So list away Kunwar

Klemperer is fantastic. But unfortunately his recordings don't have perfect sound quality.

 

[DarkAngel]

Beginning to forget?.......outside of tiny handful of avid collectors no one owns any Toscanini or Furtwangler. As Jay said vast majority of thier work is in poor sounding mono recordings that no one is really interested in hearing. I have some of thier works for reference, mostly very good but don't feel they were inately superior to the countless versions by others that followed (at least what I could hear with old mono sound).

As far as conductors that have vast complete body of recorded works that influenced music landscape (for better or worse) no one surpasses Karajan. His recorded legacy is at least 2x greater than closest rival, despite your opinion of him he cannot be dismissed just as you cannot dismiss Beatles popularity for rock music etc. Nothing really original or unique with HVK but he had a style he advanced with BPO and acheived a public profile world wide that may never be duplicated again.

It is fashionable now to dismiss HVK because of his popularity, but there was a reason for that. There were so many talented conductors in the 1960-80 era that to be the most recognized today is quite a legacy.

I usually prefer other conductors to Karajan personally for many works, but I do give the man his due......he is a legend.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++

Don't want to dwell on size of recorded output, but it is one indicator of influence of a conductor on general public perception and future legacy. Distant 2nd to HVK would be Bernstein followed by Abbado in third, then large group for 4-10 including Solti, Davis, Bohm, MacKerras, Ormandy, Szell etc.

I am big Berstein fan and love his over the top take no prisioners style of his 1960-70 Sony era work, but his recorded output lacks the opera component of HVK therefore making it less complete overall.

 

[Bunnyears]

DarkAngel,

One of the problems with judging a conductor by the number of recordings is that it just doesn't reflect his esteem within the musical community or even his contribution to music. It merely reflects his capacity for self promotion to both the public and the recording companies. When you think of names of conductors nowadays, you think of Boulez, Mehta, Maazel, Levine, Harnoncourt. Of these, how many do you think do not have press agents, music agents, etc. that promote them constantly in order to get them the best deals and the most recording contracts? Boulez is considered a master of self-promotion, and by many musicians as over-rated as well as over-exposed. Now think of Gunter Wand or Herbert Blomstedt, as great as HVK in my book. Both became more appreciated after long careers without generating the frenzy or the multitude of recordings that was generated by HVK.

Von Karajan was such a charismatic figure. He was single for most of his career, endowed with rugged good looks, and a playboy as well with his sexual exploits in all of the German tabloids. When he finally married, he picked a much younger woman of great beauty so that he immediately joined the ranks of power-couples. He enjoyed the type of fame that we associate nowadays with rock stars or in Europe with athletes such as Beckham who also appeals because of his good looks as much as his talent. In Europe, they issued his recordings with such frequency in order to satisfy the numerous fans who were a goldmine for the recording company.

Von Karajan more than any conductor of the 20th century epitomized the self-promoting narcissist. We will have to wait years to see just how much of his work remains in the catalogue and is reissued over and over. Certainly you will not find all of his recordings in print years from now, and as you have found, although you have some of his production, not all is "reference" for you.

 

[kunwar]

Nothing against karajan, but he was out and out a Nazi, no time for them, plus all his actions were to ensure that he became famous and popular with the masses. Which is why many people tend to despise him. It is all fine and well that he was a multi millionaire and possibly the most famous EDIT: (conductor) in popularity but in terms of technical accomplishment, he is sadly not upto scratch. He was good, he was not great.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunwar Nothing against karajan, but he was out and out a Nazi, no time for them, plus all his actions were to ensure that he became famous and popular with the masses. Which is why many people tend to despise him. It is all fine and well that he was a multi millionaire and possibly the most famous [conductor] in popularity but in terms of technical accomplishment, he is sadly not upto scratch. He was good, he was not great.

I agree; HVK's greatest talent was self-promotion.

Edit: I don't appreciate HVK's Nazi affiliation, but really in historic context, he was the just the baby shark in the Nazi music pond as compared to Furtwaengler and Boehm who were the great whites of that period.

 

[DarkAngel]

You people are seriously underrating quality of HVK's vast total body of work in opera and orchestral......but to each thier own I guess.

 

[00940]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunwar There are of course Klemperer, Leibowitz and the like but hardly anyone with a repetoire that encompasses almost all the major composers.

Actually, this could be a reason. I don't have any recordings of those three conductors in my collection. Simply because they recorded way more Beethoven than Bach and practically no Haendel compared to Brahms. And when they play baroque music, they just play it in a completly unsatisfying way (to my ears).

What is wonderful today, beside the technical quality of the recordings, is the extreme diversity of the conductors and their relative specialisation. I don't care about someone recording everything and anything. I prefer someone thriving for perfection on one point.

 

[Tyson]

I think if anything, many of the historical conductors are enjoying a bit of a resurgence. Modern remastering technology is making their recordings available in much improved sound quality, and companies like Naxos are re-releasing them and super cheap prices.

And I agree with DA, HVK is one of the abolute giants of the last century. I would put his best recordings (1960's Beethoven, Mahler 5, 6, 9, Bruckner) against anyone else's "best", and he would not be upstaged, IMO. The problem is that he recorded too much, and recorded too many things that he did not have a real affinity for. If he would have only recorded the things that he did superlatively, he would rank a lot higher in many people's esteem.

I see the same thing with Ashkenazy, another superlative artist how simply recorded too much stuff. I'd put his best stuff (Rachmaninov, Chopin, Shostakovich, Prokofiev) against anyone else's best and I feel he'd stand up pretty well. But he's judged on his total body of work, not just on his very best stuff. Which means that he's held in lower esteem due to his good-but-not-great efforts in Mozart and Beethoven.