[Doug2507]

Begone, squig pig!

Now, everyone else, what tips are people using with Storm? I found they make a pretty massive difference on Storm in particular.

I tended to go for narrower bore tips that are really compliant & thus allowed for deeper insertion, but I’d be interested to hear what works for others.

Likewise, smallest that still secure a fit (stock with black for me) although there's a few that had not such an easy time finding the right tip to pair with them. @LoneFurrow

 

[Hanesu]

Then with that same ideology, Cars shouldn't cost more than $20,000. Bugatti, Ferrari, Pagani, Koenigsegg, etc. should price their cars for only 20k or less?
Also Steak shouldn't cost more than $15, Peter Luger's steaks should only be sold for 20 dollars or less?

Audio is priced mainly on the basis of sound performance, material costs, R&D, margin (and other factors). One of the biggest factors is in fact the R&D, just like when we go to certain highly-praised restaurants, We come for the exquisite cuisine, the experience, the quality of service, etc. So essentially, what made the food tastes amazing? is it simply the quality of ingredients? chef skills? spices? recipe? I'd reckon the answer is always "All of the above". But what'd be the thing that takes years and years to develop? Exactly, The Recipe. Audio in this regard is similar, it takes manufacturers such as Subtonic and others years of planning, design, development, trials and errors, prototypes, to finally arrive with this tuning. Not to mention that the materials and components needed to build 1 STORM is more expensive than most IEMs out there? I'm simply trying to paint a picture here since many people are not quite familiar with how things are made in the portable audio world

So why, for example, did Oriolus double almost all of their prices in Japan then? Including prices for older IEMs that have had the same price for years! The Trailii, that has been already crazy expensive and set a new sad "standard", now literally costs 3500$ more (in Japan) than in the year of its release (no, I don`t mean the TI version). Sorry, but this cannot be explained by R&D or recession! If you follow the earphone market for a long time (I am in the boat since 1998), you will realize there are not many other technical products around that have taken so small steps of development (a cable based earphone actually isn`t that much of a complex product) and the same time increased the price for state of the art products so incredibly much (by literally hundreds of percent)! Believe me, it`s the "other factors" that you mention - and they should be named as strive for maximum profit (capitalism). Companies try out how far they can go with their prices, and if people still buy it, they try "the next step". Sad but true.

 

[BeowulfTheFoldin]

I’ll agree to that characterization!


I feel like I’m in the minority that likes the “cuter” and less busy design on the right more than the original on the left. If memory serves a lot of people didn’t like the redesign, but I love it.

Its definitely not as intriguing of a design personality, the left gives like shaman king vibes while the rights a big old pass just make it outta something else waste of money milling titanium lol

 

[Doug2507]

So why, for example, did Oriolus double almost all of their prices in Japan then? Including prices for older IEMs that have had the same price for years! The Trailii, that has been already crazy expensive, now literally costs 3500$ more (in Japan) than in the year of its release (no, I don`t mean the TI version). Sorry, but this cannot be explained by R&D or recession. If you follow the earphone market for a long time (I am in the boat since 1998), you will realize there are not many other technical products that have taken so small steps of development (a cable based earphone actually isn`t a very complex product) and the same time increased the price for state of the art products so much (by literally hundreds of percent)! Believe me, it`s the "other factors" that you mention - and they should be named as strive for maximum profit (capitalism).

I think what @AxLvR was trying to convey was that Storm isn't a price gouge, they (Subtonic) invested heavily into designing / bringing to market new tech which resulted in high R&D costs in both time and manufacturing, rather than flogging a horse.

And I'm guessing on behalf of the majority of the original 50 owners & due to lack of s/h units being available to buy, they've very much met their target audience...(irrespective of cost vs what else is out there)

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Not even different units of the the same iem model have exactly the same frequency response, either measured or hypothetical at your eardrum, due to unit variation in manufacturing. It is simply impossible for you to claim that you have heard two different iems with the same response but sound different to you. If they sound different to you, there must be differences in frequency response, measured or not, but you probably chose to neglect them, dismissing the difference as too small to have resulted in the subjective difference. but that is not a justified move in reasoning.

The laws of physics determine what the sound is at your eardrum and that determines your subjective perception.

Headphones involve time-dimension variances due to reflections and resonances, and some headphones intentionally induce harmonic distortions to produce a certain effect. so indeed eq-ing won't be able to reproduce the sound. however, with iems, these factors usually don't come into play and eq-ing can definitely get you very far in simulating one iem with another.

The physical limitations of ips compared to oled is well-known and easily measured. what is the physical quantity that you purpose is responsible for the difference between BA, DD, planar, and EST? well I know that ba's have more harmonic distortion these days than the others, but still not high enough to be of concern. but other than that, it is mostly about what frequency response shapes they are most capable of reproducing in which frequency range. you can more easily get a healthy shape in the bass with DDs and smooth treble curves with EST's. and BAs are more easily made to sound in narrow bands in the midrange, so that you can fine tune the midrange. that is why they are chosen for their respect uses, mostly.

You are viewing this in terms of absolutes, when in fact our senses do not work this way. You can have a different perception of hearing, vision, smell, or taste simply by just having a headache or being tired. If you cannot understand the concept that different driver types will reproduce the same frequencies using different technologies which may result in a different listening experience, then I'd suggest trying more sets. Manufacturers don't just decide to throw in a DD for bass response because it's what they have lying around in their driver stock.

Again, you are speaking like what you preach is fact when it simply cannot be proven, so at this point I'd appreciate it if you and whoever else treats "frequency response at the ear drum" as an absolute could stop telling those of us who disagree with you that we are wrong or being neglectful. There is nothing wrong with your opinion.

I have to disagree simply based on real world comparisons. I have heard IEMs that graph in a similar fashion, yet sound completely different. My point was not that it cannot be done. My point was I do not feel the current graphs provide enough data to make an exacting timbral prediction other then some basic info.

A video was mentioned. Where is it?

A point that is often missed is that earphones graph differently in each ear compared to a coupler, and more importantly _"the difference is different for each earphone on each ear"_ like this: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...n-first-page-all-welcome.957426/post-18089142

So right now those who say "it can't be measured" and those who say "it's all in the FR" are both right: it can be all down to the FR at your eardrum, _which can't be measured using a coupler_, because *ahem* it graphs different on your ear and the difference is different for each earphone on each ear

 

[antdroid]

Seems worth picking up tws tips then, ive found fit wise short nozzles tend to be way more comfy with tws iem tips

Haha I actually use them with the Spinfit CP360 tips that designed for TWS!

They work great with my ears. Im able to get the storm to fit perfectly that it's almost flush with my ears. Ive let others try storm and it sticks out like crazy for them no matter which rip and so I'm sure it sounds totally different for them... Maybe brighter in treble since treble is very affected by insertion depth

 

[Hanesu]

I think what @AxLvR was trying to convey was that Storm isn't a price gouge, they (Subtonic) invested heavily into designing / bringing to market new tech which resulted in high R&D costs in both time and manufacturing, rather than flogging a horse.

And I'm guessing on behalf of the majority of the original 50 owners & due to lack of s/h units being available to buy, they've very much met their target audience...(irrespective of cost vs what else is out there)

I think even then the following part of my statement is true:

If you follow the earphone market for a long time (I am in the boat since 1998), you will realize there are not many other technical products around that have taken so small steps of development (a cable based earphone actually isn`t that much of a complex product) and the same time increased the price for state of the art products so incredibly much (by literally hundreds of percent)!

 

[Doug2507]

I think even then the following part of my statement is true:

For sure, and totally agree with you on that one!

 

[Zachik]

Nobody is saying an FR graph should replace subjective reports - certainly I wouldn't say that.

THAT, we agree on!

I think the only thing we can all agree upon is that this thread is no longer about the Subtonic Storm.

Warren, what is that Subtonic Storm you mention?

You either die an audiophile or live long enough to become a squiggly science guy

I truly hope that was a joke, or else it could compete in "the most arrogant post ever" competition...

 

[AxLvR]

So why, for example, did Oriolus double almost all of their prices in Japan then? Including prices for older IEMs that have had the same price for years! The Trailii, that has been already crazy expensive and set a new sad "standard", now literally costs 3500$ more (in Japan) than in the year of its release (no, I don`t mean the TI version). Sorry, but this cannot be explained by R&D or recession! If you follow the earphone market for a long time (I am in the boat since 1998), you will realize there are not many other technical products around that have taken so small steps of development (a cable based earphone actually isn`t that much of a complex product) and the same time increased the price for state of the art products so incredibly much (by literally hundreds of percent)! Believe me, it`s the "other factors" that you mention - and they should be named as strive for maximum profit (capitalism). Companies try out how far they can go with their prices, and if people still buy it, they try "the next step". Sad but true.

Okay, in the case of Oriolus Japan, i do notice of their increase in price, especially the Traillii which i believe now costs around US$7,482 which wasn't the case 2 years ago. In this specific case, I agree with you that the hike in price needs a clear statement and explanation from Oriolus JP as to why they have done so, not only to the Traillii but also the other iems such as the Mellianus. Tbh, the price of Traillii in Chinese Yuan is also higher than the ROW. Why? I don't know, there are many factors for this, and definitely needs clarification. If as you said, the advancements or developments made in the portable audio is not significant over the years, say, from when you started in 1998, you need to ask the manufacturers as to why is it happening this way and why aren't the developments more significant. Not sure if they will tell you the truth.

So I was making my point from the perspective of STORM LE and how it was priced in a premium price range. I mean, i've explained why STORM may be very expensive (Although in the grand scheme of Summit-Fi, it's still cheaper than Amber Pearl, Mason FS ST/NE, Traillii, Apx, Rosenkranz RK Silver Rhodium, Fitear Creator, Obravo Ra-c-Cu) considering its sound quality, tuning, internal materials such as drivers, resistors, capacitors, solders, internal wiring, Titanium Shell & FP, packaging, and R&D cost. My point is simply "Bro, Don't buy it, if you think that it's not worth the asking price". If you're saying that the industry is testing the market to see how far they can go with pricing, perhaps it is or it isn't what they are doing. IF it is the case, then i will leave it to you to think for yourself... Is this sound worth the price? Do i feel like they are scamming me with this price? Do i not want to endorse such high pricing trend in the industry? This is all up to you. At this level, the hobby becomes very subjective and personal, as with every other passion-driven hobbies. For me, STORM is worth the price, I appreciated Subtonic's work with STORM, its tuning philosophy, its vision, its development to reach such a level of sound, it all resonated well with me.

I mean, let's just take it to a more popular hobby, Luxury Watches. Tell me, why does Rolex prices (MSRP) keep rising every year for certain models even if the parts are the same? is it Inflation? Limited quantity? Demand is high? Why do people spend hundreds up to millions just for a small thing that tells the time? You can do this by looking at your phone and it won't cost that much as compared to luxury watches. I myself love watches but I don't need expensive watches to tell me the time, my phone will suffice, hence i chose not to spend the money on them. Perhaps someday when I'm older and richer i will, but now? it's not yet worth the money to me and most importantly I don't NEED it.

If you ask me, Yes, I see the trend of flagship IEM prices getting higher. Are they all great sounding IEMs? nope, at least not to my ears. Can I stop these manufacturers from pricing their IEMs so high? no, as long as there is a market for it, they will keep making it. Do I hate them for it? maybe, but I also understand that by end of the day, they are a business making fair money. Are their profit margin getting more and more ridiculous? perhaps, I can name a few companies that do. Will the prices keep rising? yes and no, the market will decide. As long as people are free to spend their money, as long as the market is viable, businesses will keep making IEMs for it. But it's up to you whether you want to spend your money or not, this hobby is about personal happiness, it's YOUR happiness that matters.

 

[Hanesu]

Okay, in the case of Oriolus Japan, i do notice of their increase in price, especially the Traillii which i believe now costs around US$7,482 which wasn't the case 2 years ago. In this specific case, I agree with you that the hike in price needs a clear statement and explanation from Oriolus JP as to why they have done so, not only to the Traillii but also the other iems such as the Mellianus. Tbh, the price of Traillii in Chinese Yuan is also higher than the ROW. Why? I don't know, there are many factors for this, and definitely needs clarification. If as you said, the advancements or developments made in the portable audio is not significant over the years, say, from when you started in 1998, you need to ask the manufacturers as to why is it happening this way and why aren't the developments more significant. Not sure if they will tell you the truth.

So I was making my point from the perspective of STORM LE and how it was priced in a premium price range. I mean, i've explained why STORM may be very expensive (Although in the grand scheme of Summit-Fi, it's still cheaper than Amber Pearl, Mason FS ST/NE, Traillii, Apx, Rosenkranz RK Silver Rhodium, Fitear Creator, Obravo Ra-c-Cu) considering its sound quality, tuning, internal materials such as drivers, resistors, capacitors, solders, internal wiring, Titanium Shell & FP, packaging, and R&D cost. My point is simply "Bro, Don't buy it, if you think that it's not worth the asking price". If you're saying that the industry is testing the market to see how far they can go with pricing, perhaps it is or it isn't what they are doing. IF it is the case, then i will leave it to you to think for yourself... Is this sound worth the price? Do i feel like they are scamming me with this price? Do i not want to endorse such high pricing trend in the industry? This is all up to you. At this level, the hobby becomes very subjective and personal, as with every other passion-driven hobbies. For me, STORM is worth the price, I appreciated Subtonic's work with STORM, its tuning philosophy, its vision, its development to reach such a level of sound, it all resonated well with me.

I mean, let's just take it to a more popular hobby, Luxury Watches. Tell me, why does Rolex prices (MSRP) keep rising every year for certain models even if the parts are the same? is it Inflation? Limited quantity? Demand is high? Why do people spend hundreds up to millions just for a small thing that tells the time? You can do this by looking at your phone and it won't cost that much as compared to luxury watches. I myself love watches but I don't need expensive watches to tell me the time, my phone will suffice, hence i chose not to spend the money on them. Perhaps someday when I'm older and richer i will, but now? it's not yet worth the money to me and most importantly I don't NEED it.

If you ask me, Yes, I see the trend of flagship IEM prices getting higher. Are they all great sounding IEMs? nope, at least not to my ears. Can I stop these manufacturers from pricing their IEMs so high? no, as long as there is a market for it, they will keep making it. Do I hate them for it? maybe, but I also understand that by end of the day, they are a business making fair money. Are their profit margin getting more and more ridiculous? perhaps, I can name a few companies that do. Will the prices keep rising? yes and no, the market will decide. As long as people are free to spend their money, as long as the market is viable, businesses will keep making IEMs for it. But it's up to you whether you want to spend your money or not, this hobby is about personal happiness, it's YOUR happiness that matters.

I don`t disagree with you and have brought up the comparison to luxury watches many times by myself. The only "problem" for myself (and others) is, that the (step by step) acceptance of those moon prices through us customers turns our hobby into something like the market for luxury watches, what it did not use to be. Being able to own and listen to TOTL earphones (meaning here: "state of the art") was accessible to more of us years ago than it is now. Say what you want, but I find that a sad development.

 

[emdeevee]

You either die an audiophile or live long enough to become a squiggly science guy

I'll see myself out.

I guess I'll die an audiophile, at least I'll be listening instead of looking and analyzing!

And from the wise words inside the KZ package:

 

[goldwerger]

You either die an audiophile or live long enough to become a squiggly science guy

I'll see myself out.

 

[o0genesis0o]

I tended to go for narrower bore tips that are really compliant & thus allowed for deeper insertion, but I’d be interested to hear what works for others.

Surprised that you use narrow bore tips. I always aim for tips wider than nozzle and wear the IEM as deep as I can. The logic is to preserve the treble response and push the resonance peak up into upper treble.

Tips are another interesting story. The other day, I found that I can accidentally change the upper mid and lower treble by inserting some IEM at certain depth, thus changing the shape of the soundstage entirely.

Reviewing IEM is a nightmare especially the ones with shorter nozzle from our favourite Singaporean boutiques. Same problem with the treble vs fit on Crimson as well.

 

[Resolve]

I truly hope that was a joke, or else it could compete in "the most arrogant post ever" competition...

I was hoping this would be understood to be a joke. It's actually a batman reference: "You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain"

Very much a joke.