[up late]

yes, the th900 is more efficient but that doesn't make the hd800 inefficient or difficult to drive. most dynamic cans produce between 95-100db with 1milliwatt (mw) of input power. fostex rates the th900 at 100db/mw. with a sensitivity of 102db per 1v rms and 300ohm nominal impedance, the hd800 produces 96.8db with 1mw of power. that's not too shabby. a cell phone, laptop or pc could drive it to ear splitting levels.

 

[tomatoshoe]

  The S takes considerable more power to match similar sound levels than th900.

 
Whazzzup do you listen to EDM? How does EDM sound on the HD800S compared to the TH900?

 

[Whazzzup]

 
The S takes considerable more power to match similar sound levels than th900.

Whazzzup do you listen to EDM? How does EDM sound on the HD800S compared to the TH900?

As I have stated previously, you can search my posts for more detail, the 800s was shockingly different at first, a real What moment, after 1.5 years on th900. Nothing prepares one the deviation from those powerful bass thump and guttural sub bass and those biting Mids. However after a few hours of adjustment, I was surprised by how pleasing, Vermont, sceada, Tolga fiden, Dominick eulberg, John digweed, robert babicz, peidmont, super flu, Kassem mosse, dead mouse, bt, Kelpe etc.... Was or how my brain adjusted. Using se to TT of course. Th900 bass slams that bass in a wide frequency and even with the more biting Mids, kind of drowns out some mid detail. Now th900 puts you against that house speaker and glow sticks abound, but the hd800s the bass is tight, it's in its spot and doesn't reach out to take any other sounds or frequency away. The Mids and sound effects of the electronic I listed ( which is a big part of the sound scape) can shine, you hear the 3D detail a bit more, the sound effects as it were. Even instrument and vocal inflection. It isn't harsh it's warm at the same time. It's really remarkably different. So it's th900 bass extension versus hd800s tight bass mid detail and balance. I'm giving the hd800s head time now as its new and I really like the instruments that sound a bit more "real" but I tell you th900 gets your glow sticks glowing and head bobbing and percussion feel that's tough to beat. I'm flipping between cans listening to chemical brothers go remixes as I type it's almost not fair to say which I prefer. Bass versus mid detail, I can see folks going either way depending on what flavours are more favourable to your ears.

Sorry for the babble , ya 800s doesn't seem to have a bad genre.

 

[BlakeT]

As I have stated previously, you can search my posts for more detail, the 800s was shockingly different at first, a real What moment, after 1.5 years on th900. Nothing prepares one the deviation from those powerful bass thump and guttural sub bass and those biting Mids. However after a few hours of adjustment, I was surprised by how pleasing, Vermont, sceada, Tolga fiden, Dominick eulberg, John digweed, robert babicz, peidmont, super flu, Kassem mosse, dead mouse, bt, Kelpe etc.... Was or how my brain adjusted. Using se to TT of course. Th900 bass slams that bass in a wide frequency and even with the more biting Mids, kind of drowns out some mid detail. Now th900 puts you against that house speaker and glow sticks abound, but the hd800s the bass is tight, it's in its spot and doesn't reach out to take any other sounds or frequency away. The Mids and sound effects of the electronic I listed ( which is a big part of the sound scape) can shine, you hear the 3D detail a bit more, the sound effects as it were. Even instrument and vocal inflection. It isn't harsh it's warm at the same time. It's really remarkably different. So it's th900 bass extension versus hd800s tight bass mid detail and balance. I'm giving the hd800s head time now as its new and I really like the instruments that sound a bit more "real" but I tell you th900 gets your glow sticks glowing and head bobbing and percussion feel that's tough to beat. I'm flipping between cans listening to chemical brothers go remixes as I type it's almost not fair to say which I prefer. Bass versus mid detail, I can see folks going either way depending on what flavours are more favourable to your ears.

Sorry for the babble , ya 800s doesn't seem to have a bad genre.

 
Excellent write up.
 
I don't own the "S" version of the HD800, just the originals, which I acquired this month, so they are the new can in my stable.  90% of my time I listen to electronic music.   I had the same experience in terms of "readjusting" my mind when I first started listening to the HD800.  I think your summary matches my  thoughts exactly comparing the HD800 to TH900 with electronic music.
 
I've been doing tons of back and forth comparisons this week as I've been comparing my HD800 (balanced), TH900 (balanced) and my W3000ANV's to a loaner pair of Dharma D1000's over the last week.  
 
If I was forced to keep only one headphone, it would be the HD800, but I do love the others as well.  That well could be the result of pairing the HD800's with the Liquid Carbon.  I don't have any interest in modding the HD800 and I really thought that would be the case after reading all the reviews...  I have sensitive ears in terms of susceptibility to ear fatigue/ringing and I can listen to the HD800 all day long.

 

[Whazzzup]

 

As I have stated previously, you can search my posts for more detail, the 800s was shockingly different at first, a real What moment, after 1.5 years on th900. Nothing prepares one the deviation from those powerful bass thump and guttural sub bass and those biting Mids. However after a few hours of adjustment, I was surprised by how pleasing, Vermont, sceada, Tolga fiden, Dominick eulberg, John digweed, robert babicz, peidmont, super flu, Kassem mosse, dead mouse, bt, Kelpe etc.... Was or how my brain adjusted. Using se to TT of course. Th900 bass slams that bass in a wide frequency and even with the more biting Mids, kind of drowns out some mid detail. Now th900 puts you against that house speaker and glow sticks abound, but the hd800s the bass is tight, it's in its spot and doesn't reach out to take any other sounds or frequency away. The Mids and sound effects of the electronic I listed ( which is a big part of the sound scape) can shine, you hear the 3D detail a bit more, the sound effects as it were. Even instrument and vocal inflection. It isn't harsh it's warm at the same time. It's really remarkably different. So it's th900 bass extension versus hd800s tight bass mid detail and balance. I'm giving the hd800s head time now as its new and I really like the instruments that sound a bit more "real" but I tell you th900 gets your glow sticks glowing and head bobbing and percussion feel that's tough to beat. I'm flipping between cans listening to chemical brothers go remixes as I type it's almost not fair to say which I prefer. Bass versus mid detail, I can see folks going either way depending on what flavours are more favourable to your ears.

Sorry for the babble , ya 800s doesn't seem to have a bad genre.

 
Excellent write up.
 
I don't own the "S" version of the HD800, just the originals, which I acquired this month, so they are the new can in my stable.  90% of my time I listen to electronic music.   I had the same experience in terms of "readjusting" my mind when I first started listening to the HD800.  I think your summary matches my  thoughts exactly comparing the HD800 to TH900 with electronic music.
 
I've been doing tons of back and forth comparisons this week as I've been comparing my HD800 (balanced), TH900 (balanced) and my W3000ANV's to a loaner pair of Dharma D1000's over the last week.  
 
If I was forced to keep only one headphone, it would be the HD800, but I do love the others as well.  That well could be the result of pairing the HD800's with the Liquid Carbon.  I don't have any interest in modding the HD800 and I really thought that would be the case after reading all the reviews...  I have sensitive ears in terms of susceptibility to ear fatigue/ringing and I can listen to the HD800 all day long.

Thanks and always good to know that in this auditory gamut, that there is a someone offering a comparable experience out there. I heard some good things about liquid carbon and gsm mk2 through TT but am going to stick with just the TT as my dac amp for now. I may be leaning to prefer 800S now, but wont give up th900 either. At least they make a good compliment to each other.

 

[zolkis]

the th900 is more efficient but that doesn't make the hd800 inefficient or difficult to drive. most dynamic cans produce between 95-100db with 1milliwatt (mw) of input power. fostex rates the th900 at 100db/mw. with a sensitivity of 102db per 1v rms and 300ohm nominal impedance, the hd800 produces 96.8db with 1mw of input power. that's not too shabby. a cell phone, laptop or pc could drive it to ear splitting levels.

 
Correct, it can sound loud enough. But it's important what sound comes that loud.
 
Just a small question mark about terminology. I wonder if efficiency is correctly used here. Sennheiser provides sensitivity in dB/mV (102), whereas Fostex provides sensitivity in dB/mW (100). Some call this latter efficiency, but it's not consistent with loudspeakers sensitivity which is also defined as sound pressure in dB per 1W power, dB/W  at 1 m distance, typically with a sinusoidal signal at 1000 Hz. Besides, efficiency usually is defined in terms of heat loss, which is related to power loss as a function of impedance matching with the amp's output impedance across the frequency range rather than sensitivity.
 
Anyway, using dB/V is a subtle but important difference, since the amp needs more power to produce 1V on the HD800 than on the TH900, because the HD800 impedance is much higher. The HD800 comes around 92-97 dB/mW sensitivity depending on frequency. However, high impedance headphones have less heat loss, since the output impedance of the driving amps matters less, so in that sense they are more efficient. On the other hand they indeed take more power to produce the same SPL, so in that sense they are less sensitive, and less efficient.
 
Conversely, the TH900 draws much more power at the same voltage than the HD800 since its impedance is almost 10 times lower, therefore it is much easier to drive, i.e. it can get the same power with much less voltage swing than the HD800. Given the limited voltage swing of most portable players, they cannot provide enough power to drive the HD800 at sufficient SPL, which will make them sound brittle and bright with distortions polluting the audio spectrum, especially with complex audio signals (music).
 
The situation is even more complex since impedance and phase used in the power calculus is a function of frequency, see the plot for the HD800 and the one for the TH900, and sensitivity will also vary. BTW from the square wave plots one can see the TH900 retains more energy (it's slower and more colored) already at 300 Hz. A waterfall measurement shows that (TH900, HD800) even more clearly. Since the HD800 has a cleaner waterfall, the fact that it's not driven well is somewhat better masked except in the problematic 6kHz region, and the effect will depend also on what kind of music do you listen to. If EQ is used in addition to not driving the HD800 properly, the situation gets really broken. Compared to that, the TH900 is easy and simple and fun indeed.
 
Of course the effects described above are most often not dramatic, but definitely play a role in the perceived sound quality.

 

[Whazzzup]

Interesting, explains a lot of what I hear and dont know why.

 

[up late]

Correct, it can sound loud enough. But it's important what sound comes that loud.

Just a small question mark about terminology. I wonder if efficiency is correctly used here. Sennheiser provides sensitivity in dB/mV (102), whereas Fostex provides sensitivity in dB/mW (100)...

note that i provided the sensitivity for both cans in milliwatts, so we're not comparing apples with oranges. and yes, there are those variables which you referred to in detail that might affect sound quality, but as you also acknowledged "are most often not dramatic". my point was simply that while the th900 is more efficient, the hd800 is not difficult to drive. it can play very loudly out of an iphone for example. a dedicated amplifier is not essential in order to use it. whether that is satisfactory is another thing.

 

[TWerk]

Amps confuse me so much.
 
Out of my laptop outlet, these TH900's will get way past the point of uncomfortable levels of loudness.
 
Most cans I have had are that way. Now, some of them start to sound worse as they go really loud, but usually once they're that loud, it's a level of volume that isn't even comfortable to listen at all.
 
There is a website called audiobot 9000 which lists the headphones and the level of output (in MW) needed to get enough power per level of DB.
 
What confuses me is for many cans, they need very little amount MW to get even the max amount of DB.
 
Something a cheap decent portable amp, or most likely my macbook outlet can provide.
 
So, I don't understand why you'd get a super charger amp for something like a TH900, when it just isn't required.
 
Why do people spend so much on amps for super efficient headphones?
 
Also - what is this idea of like 1-2 full watts of power that a TH900 can handle?
 
How could you ever listen to an amp providing these a full watt of power without literally going deaf or being in unbelievable pain?
 
Excuse my inexperience on the subject, but I really just don't understand.
 
When I listen to the TH900 straight into the macbook, they get plenty loud and sound really great. What am I missing here?

 

[up late]

you understand well enough

 

[zolkis]

Amps can be very complex, with a lot of topologies and dynamic behavior we are approximating imperfectly. Fortunately the TH900 has a benign impedance curve between 25 and 32 Ohms, and phase between 15 and 25 degrees. By all means it's very easy load for an amp with low enough output impedance to be able to provide power fast enough (slew rate, search on it, my links are getting removed in this forum). Music is highly dynamic, and the headphones can draw quite high current even if it's for short time. When amps cannot provide voltage or power fast enough, they sound worse than those who can. The high power rating of the amps is not required per se, but it comes with the design of the amp to provide enough power fast enough. High resolution amps also tend to be high bandwidth, but often too high bandwidth amps sound hard and sterile, since they deliver high frequency harmonic content including distortions spectrum whose subharmonics will affect treble and midrange. If the slew rate is not high enough, nonlinear distortions will occur with more chance and with high bandwidth amps the audible effects are more remarkable. So we want an amp with a high slew rate in the audio frequency domain and low pass above that.

In addition there are nonlinear distortions that we are just starting to be able to measure, even though papers have been out for a while, and even though we can hear its various effects, mostly coming through as loss of musical information or perceived as technical or non-musical sound. IMHO that is one of the main reasons we are hearing big differences in musicality. A few key things to avoid that are good power supply (we are listening to power modulated by music signal), simple topology, good heat dissipation, low distortion quality components that maintain properties in frequency and time. Amp design also has an economic part, and the knowledge where to invest what amount. The latter will affect how cheap you get your good sound. In a way it's easier to make a no compromise amp than to make it with acceptable price.

 

[zolkis]

Of course there are a lot of other factors in amp design, and amps are orders of magnitude more complex than say all cables that are more expensive than them . Just a reminder to where to invest what amount

 

[Whitigir]

Lol...it seems...people think "loud enough" are "good enough.

Amps can be very complex, with a lot of topologies and dynamic behavior we are approximating imperfectly. Fortunately the TH900 has a benign impedance curve between 25 and 32 Ohms, and phase between 15 and 25 degrees. By all means it's very easy load for an amp with low enough output impedance to be able to provide power fast enough (slew rate, search on it, my links are getting removed in this forum). Music is highly dynamic, and the headphones can draw quite high current even if it's for short time. When amps cannot provide voltage or power fast enough, they sound worse than those who can. The high power rating of the amps is not required per se, but it comes with the design of the amp to provide enough power fast enough. High resolution amps also tend to be high bandwidth, but often too high bandwidth amps sound hard and sterile, since they deliver high frequency harmonic content including distortions spectrum whose subharmonics will affect treble and midrange. If the slew rate is not high enough, nonlinear distortions will occur with more chance and with high bandwidth amps the audible effects are more remarkable. So we want an amp with a high slew rate in the audio frequency domain and low pass above that.

In addition there are nonlinear distortions that we are just starting to be able to measure, even though papers have been out for a while, and even though we can hear its various effects, mostly coming through as loss of musical information or perceived as technical or non-musical sound. IMHO that is one of the main reasons we are hearing big differences in musicality. A few key things to avoid that are good power supply (we are listening to power modulated by music signal), simple topology, good heat dissipation, low distortion quality components that maintain properties in frequency and time. Amp design also has an economic part, and the knowledge where to invest what amount. The latter will affect how cheap you get your good sound. In a way it's easier to make a no compromise amp than to make it with acceptable price.

This is the best explaination I have came across so far. Thank you. If some one enjoy their HD800 out of an iPad ? I wouldn't even want to bother to explain

 

[up late]

Lol...it seems...people think "loud enough" are "good enough.

...If some one enjoy their HD800 out of an iPad ? I wouldn't even want to bother to explain

no one is suggesting that.

however, folks can listen to the hd800 from their ipad or for example, a modestly priced and powered set amp with a relatively simple topology if they wish. the point is that the hd800 does not require a high-powered or expensive head amp to perform, but if folks want to believe otherwise then they're welcome to. i'm not immuned to the allure of expensive audio kit either - obviously.

 

[yc1204]

Im sorry if i missed anything in this thread, but may i ask if anyone heard the TH900 MK2? I really love its new removable cable design and planing on getting 1 soon even i already have the MK1.