Focal Elear and Utopia Review / Preview With Measurements - Head-Fi TV
Jun 20, 2016 at 11:37 AM Post #571 of 5,632
 
well, I'd say at this point the science behind soundstage is decently well understood.  It's HRTF + angle the sound hits your ear + area of the ear it impacts + micro adjustments your brain makes when your head moves tiny amounts.
 
The top headphones have gotten down angling (why most of the top headphones use some method or another of angling the drivers).  Also most top headphones these days produce a decently wide sound array that allows the sound to hit the folds of your ears, through a combination of giving the driver a bit of space from your ear and large drivers with fewer "hotspots" on the driver.  This is largely where we've seen the great expansion of soundstage in the last 10 or so years, as makers understood and implemented these two ideas.  HRTF has been more frequently and better integrated into amps and DACs in recent years as well.  the micro adjustments thing is probably a couple years off, as VR technology will eventually allow a sensor to monitor your head position and digitally process the HRTF algorithm before sending it to your headphones.  At which point we can potentially have real, genuinely immersive soundstage.
 
Getting back to the current level of tech:

My take on what is "natural" vs what is "false" or exaggerated" when it comes to soundstage is how it reproduces the intended size.  With most studio created music this isn't even possible to suss out because there isn't a clear frame of reference, and unless you were in the control room, talking to the producer and engineer when the record was made, you really don't even have a clear idea of what they were after.  However, with live recordings, you can often get a feel for how it should sound, especially if you have experienced the venue being recorded.  
 
My take on the HD800 is that it has the widest soundstage that doesn't sound preposterously exaggerated using gimmicks.  and it has decent/very good depth.  But, like all headphones that haven't been subjected to some form of crossfeed, it can suffer from being a bit too far on the left and right of you, with dropouts in the middle left and middle right, the infamous headphone "disconnected" soundstage; a blob of sound in the center, a blob of sound on the right and a blob of sound on the left, which noticeably gets less "dense" between those areas.  That's simply because most music is still engineered for speakers, not headphones.  On music that was binaurally recorded for headphones in a proper concert hall, the HD800 can sound stunningly lifelike, almost approaching a great pair of speakers in its ability to reproduce lifelike sounds.  
 
The other pro is that since the HD800 goes a little overboard in soundstage width, when "corrected" with a good crossfeed implementation (be it DSP or analog circuit) it becomes more "connected" and a bit deeper in soundstage, without becoming too narrow.  With many headphones, if crossfeed is implemented, the soundstage "connects", but is then in turn too narrow, So you have to choose between lifelike width, or lifelike connectedness.  I personally choose connectedness, as nothign drives me crazier than the hard left and hard right sounds that don't even seem to be coming from the same space, like you're listening to different rooms, but it would be nice to have that, without everything sounding pushed towards the center, and few headphones cna do both, even with DSP.  With the HD800 and a good crossfeed implementation you get the best of both worlds.  At that point, the only thing missing from the soundstage recipe is the ability to tell when your head is moving and micro adjust the auditory image based on your headphones, and that's the next big leap for headphones down the pipe.  
 
So, yes, I agree that the HD800's soundstage, when uncorrected, is "unnatural" but so is every headphone on the market.  The pro of the HD800 is that you can fix it with crossfeed, whereas most headphones, with crossfeed, the soundstage sounds more natural in some ways, but can also sound claustrophobic or at least "pushed towards the center".  I'll be excited to see how the Elear and Utopia fare in this regard.  
 
edit: also, it's perfectly fine to like an overly large soundstage, just like it's perfectly fine to like a headphone that has more bass than is really neutral, or more treble.  This isn't a comment at all on what is "best" but rather, what gets closer to reproducing the sound intended by the creators.  It's a perfectly legitimate thing to say "screw what they intended, I want this to sound even wider." And a lot of people certainly make that choice in the headphone world.  Some people chose headphones for convenience, or cost, but some people want more resolution and more extreme left and right sounds than music makers ever intended, and that's why they chose headphones in the first place, over speakers.
 


Exhaustive explanation on what soundstage headphones setup is. Speaking like a sound engineer.
I know of sound engineers who would comment like you but instead of the HD800 they EQ and monitor with the LCD-X.
 
My purpose is to get the best soundstage (through non binaural registering like you point it as being the panacea) with NON EQ headphones. Actually quite near the goal with the LCD4.
Wondering about the Utopia....
 
Jun 20, 2016 at 11:44 AM Post #572 of 5,632
 
Exhaustive explanation on what soundstage headphones setup is. Speaking like a sound engineer.
I know of sound engineers who would comment like you but instead of the HD800 they EQ and monitor with the LCD-X.
 
My purpose is to get the best soundstage (through non binaural registering like you point it as being the panacea) with NON EQ headphones. Actually quite near the goal with the LCD4.
Wondering about the Utopia....


by "non-EQ headphones" I am assuming you mean without an HRTF based crossfeed circuit/program?  HRTF crossfeed is more than EQ, though differential EQing is certainly part of the recipe.  There are also some very tiny time delay aspects and crosfeeding signal.
 
Jun 20, 2016 at 11:48 AM Post #573 of 5,632
will a HD700 replacement cable work with the Elear?
 
Jun 20, 2016 at 11:51 AM Post #574 of 5,632
Thanks for the impressions! It's good to get some more opinions from end users into the conversation. Taken in total, so far impressions on the Utopia seem universally positive but not overwhelmingly so. It's sounding like the Utopia is yet another high-end option presenting a different flavor, but not clearly better or worse than many of the other current flagships.


Edric clearly thought otherwise, claiming the HD800S sounded superior to him regardless of price. No offense intended, but as an end user with no conflict of interest his opinion carries more weight for me.
Everyone has a valid comment if they've actually heard them. What he hasn't heard is a set that is actually broken in at full voice. We didn't have any of those here. We had all fresh out of the box cans. My statement is had he heard them broken in, I doubt very seriously he would make those determinations but then he might. I am not condemning anyone's point of view, I'm simply provided pertinent data relevant to his opinion.
 
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Jun 20, 2016 at 11:56 AM Post #576 of 5,632
   
I think the Elear use 3.5 not 2.5 (new hifiman, hd700, Nighthawks, etc). The other headphones I know of that use 3.5 are the T1 gen 2.


ah, thanks!  Will definitely be getting a 2nd cable for these if there are any reasonable ones out there price wise. Not looking for magic cable sound, just looking for something that's about 3.5 feet long and terminated in 3.5mm amp end.  If not I'll just shorten and reterminate the stock cable, not that big of a deal.  Kind of annoying that they wouldn't at least include a shorter one, or make the longer one an upgrade option.  But that's been beaten over enough here.
 
Jun 20, 2016 at 12:01 PM Post #577 of 5,632
Not really sure if the Elear is for me. I have been around for a while now and can kinda read between the lines. Im more excited about the Kennerton Vali and revisions made to make it sound more open and cleaner in the bass. Than I am about the Elear. I went from stoked to mehhh... I really want to audition a pair. As for Utopia I gots to have me some Soundstage atleast as deep as the LCD3 or spacious as the HEK for me to pay over 2k.

modded 800... Here we come
 
Jun 20, 2016 at 12:02 PM Post #578 of 5,632
Everyone has a valid comment if they've actually heard them. What he hasn't heard is a set that is actually broken in at full voice. We didn't have any of those here. We had all fresh out of the box cans. My statement is had he heard them broken in, I doubt very seriously he would make those determinations but then he might. I am not condemning anyone's point of view, I'm simply provided pertinent data relevant to his opinion.

The good old break in trick!
Differences among two different headphones are way bigger than the very slight (if any) difference caused by 'burn in'
 
Jun 20, 2016 at 12:05 PM Post #579 of 5,632
ah, thanks!  Will definitely be getting a 2nd cable for these if there are any reasonable ones out there price wise. Not looking for magic cable sound, just looking for something that's about 3.5 feet long and terminated in 3.5mm amp end.  If not I'll just shorten and reterminate the stock cable, not that big of a deal.  Kind of annoying that they wouldn't at least include a shorter one, or make the longer one an upgrade option.  But that's been beaten over enough here.


No worries, I personally have a 2.5 to 3.5 headphone adapter on order for when the Elear becomes available here. No way I'm dealing with a 4m cable, I do understand their intent however - considering their background as a company I guess they foresee most of their customers using their headphones in a sort of home theatre-esque setting rather than a desktop one where the user (like myself) sits practically right next to their amplifier.
 
Jun 20, 2016 at 12:09 PM Post #580 of 5,632
What I want to know, could the Utopia playing realy loud  and is still clean in every detail  ?  I did listen to my Organ music via Egoista on a very high volume setting and every thing is clear, the same is with the Pio M I, but with many other headphone I have trouble on high volume. So can the Utopia deliver high volume ?  
As Dan pointed out the Utopia really does require an amplifier that doesn't have issues with clean. We had one listener that upset all the others by pushing his music to crazy levels that would damage his ears. It was so loud that our staff had to ask him several times to turn them down so that it would not conflict with others trying to audition the cabs they were on. His comment to me was they were incredible and clean at those levels. I'm not going to punish my ears at those levels to confirm but I imagine they can reach high levels with clean representation provided the music and amp don't have distortion. The Utopia will tell you if your electronics are limited in their abilities for sure
 
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Jun 20, 2016 at 12:19 PM Post #581 of 5,632
Thanks for that. My Egoista 845 is dead quite and clean and has more than enough Power. I think the sensitive of the Pioneer SE Master I is similar to the Utopia and it works perfect on the Egoista. Further more I have the SS Amp Cavalli LAu and he is also on high level concerning cleanes. So I think I will go for the Utopia and will see if it will suit my ears.
 
Jun 20, 2016 at 12:21 PM Post #582 of 5,632
@fjrabon first of all, I want to thank you for your excellent post. The technical information is much appreciated. I understand the effort that goes into assembling all these information together. I am glad someone with that knowledge is willing to share with all of us.

On a different note and just talking in general and not directed to anyone in particular, there have been a number of posts that talked about personal preference. If I may use a different term which is sound perception for personal preference. When we listen to a set of headphones, we are hearing a set of physical sound waves that are created by artists and by design through sound and recording engineers onto a medium and is reproduced by a long sequence of highly specific, technical and subjective designs from source to DAC to Amp to cable and finally to headphones. Up to this point we are talking about electrical signal and physical sound wave. However, once this highly subjective sound wave enters into our brain, it goes through another set of very complicated processing and the term perception refers to this neurocognitive manipulation and processing of this information. The brain is extremely good at noticing minute differences and when we listen to any sound, we are not just listening to this set of sound wave, our brain actually compares this set of sound wave to what is recorded in our memory. If what is stored within our memory is different from what we hear, our brain will notice it regardless of how small the differences may be. In addition to the differences that our brain notices, it also depends on the emotional connection that this set of memory is connected to. The brain structures Amydala and hippocampus are responsible for this emotional connection. If a person listens in a concert while on a honeymoon and has a extremely positive experience from it. The size of that sound stage may determine how wide he likes a soundstage to be, and he may like it or not depending on what he expects to hear. Since everyone has different personal experience both positive and negative, that is why sound perception is so different even from the same setup. The ideal width of a sound stage for a person who is constantly sitting in the front row of a concert may be different from someone always sits in the back of a concert which may yet be different from someone who seldom attends a concert. Our prior learning influences greatly on our perception.
 
Jun 20, 2016 at 12:31 PM Post #583 of 5,632
i'm not debating against anyone's personal preference. i am questioning a personal opinion that is being asserted as fact, however.
Let's weigh my opinion. My opinion as some think is biased. The problem with that assumption is that I do my best to help people understand the attributes of all the different headphones here with bias to none. The topic here is the Focal. I've been commenting based on my opinion without bias based on being a design and engineering firm that sells gear. I sell every brand that I've commented on and don't comment if I don't have the product to legitimately compare or sell. ...
 
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Jun 20, 2016 at 12:32 PM Post #584 of 5,632
Not really sure if the Elear is for me. I have been around for a while now and can kinda read between the lines. Im more excited about the Kennerton Vali and revisions made to make it sound more open and cleaner in the bass. Than I am about the Elear. I went from stoked to mehhh... I really want to audition a pair. As for Utopia I gots to have me some Soundstage atleast as deep as the LCD3 or spacious as the HEK for me to pay over 2k.

modded 800... Here we come


yeah, I'm going back and forth between a modded HD800 and Elear.  Luckily I'll be able to have both at the same time and I'll just unload whichever one I end up not going with.  If its close I'll probably go with the Elear, as the greater ease of amping is a big plus for me.  I like headphones that can shine with top end gear, but don't sound like complete crud out of a phone/dragonfly type device.  That's been the biggest reason I've stuck with the HE400i this long, despite upgraditis hitting many times.  So few headphones can really pull off both in the ie $500-1200 range.  I'm crossing my fingers that the elear can do it.  If not, then I'll gladly go with the tried and true modded late serial number HD800.
 
Jun 20, 2016 at 12:37 PM Post #585 of 5,632
@jalo - i don't regard sound perception and personal preference as interchangeable descriptors, and i don't use them in that way - just saying
 

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