[up late]

No direction. The HD800 has a different soundstage presentation and you are right that it can be prefered depending of the listener but we know that this soundstage is false.
It was spectacular 9 years ago when those headphones hit the market but technology now allows to manufacture headphones which comes closer to reality.

The question is: do we listen to put images on our dreams or do we try to hear what the musicians played registering ? Perhaps our own choices come from the personnal answer.

that's an entirely subjective assertion. how can you know that the hd800's soundstage is false when the effect is illusory and varies from headphone to headphone?

 

[up late]

Thanks for your great impression on the Focal Utopia, @Warrenpchi. Such great impressions, put foolish notions into a foolish slack dog. These cans look amazing, I just wish they are a little lighter and came with a shorter XLR cable. Furthermore the sonic characteristics you describe , have me salivating. Perhaps one day I will be able to get these headphones.

conversely, it could be telling some folks what they long to hear

 

[Whitigir]

that's an entirely subjective assertion. how can you know that the hd800's soundstage is false when the effect is illusory and varies from headphone to headphone?

You don't know, and you can not tell. Now, what exactly is soundstage ? How does a headphones create it ? Until we understand this, then still...there would be no way to tell if hd800 has superior soundstage, or is Hd800 exaggerating the soundstage ? Personally and preferences speaking, one may prefer a narrower soundstage headphones ....but still, who could debate against another personal preferences ? I know for a fact that I love wider , expansive and more open soundstage , and to me it sounds like HD800 is in favor

 

[up late]

i'm not debating against anyone's personal preference. i am questioning a personal opinion that is being asserted as fact, however.

 

[fjrabon]

You don't know, and you can not tell. Now, what exactly is soundstage ? How does a headphones create it ? Until we understand this, then still...there would be no way to tell if hd800 has superior soundstage, or is Hd800 exaggerating the soundstage ? Personally and preferences speaking, one may prefer a narrower soundstage headphones

....but still, who could debate against another personal preferences ? I know for a fact that I love wider , expansive and more open soundstage , and to me it sounds like HD800 is in favor

well, I'd say at this point the science behind soundstage is decently well understood.  It's HRTF + angle the sound hits your ear + area of the ear it impacts + micro adjustments your brain makes when your head moves tiny amounts.
 
The top headphones have gotten down angling (why most of the top headphones use some method or another of angling the drivers).  Also most top headphones these days produce a decently wide sound array that allows the sound to hit the folds of your ears, through a combination of giving the driver a bit of space from your ear and large drivers with fewer "hotspots" on the driver.  This is largely where we've seen the great expansion of soundstage in the last 10 or so years, as makers understood and implemented these two ideas.  HRTF has been more frequently and better integrated into amps and DACs in recent years as well.  the micro adjustments thing is probably a couple years off, as VR technology will eventually allow a sensor to monitor your head position and digitally process the HRTF algorithm before sending it to your headphones.  At which point we can potentially have real, genuinely immersive soundstage.
 
Getting back to the current level of tech:

My take on what is "natural" vs what is "false" or exaggerated" when it comes to soundstage is how it reproduces the intended size.  With most studio created music this isn't even possible to suss out because there isn't a clear frame of reference, and unless you were in the control room, talking to the producer and engineer when the record was made, you really don't even have a clear idea of what they were after.  However, with live recordings, you can often get a feel for how it should sound, especially if you have experienced the venue being recorded.  
 
My take on the HD800 is that it has the widest soundstage that doesn't sound preposterously exaggerated using gimmicks.  and it has decent/very good depth.  But, like all headphones that haven't been subjected to some form of crossfeed, it can suffer from being a bit too far on the left and right of you, with dropouts in the middle left and middle right, the infamous headphone "disconnected" soundstage; a blob of sound in the center, a blob of sound on the right and a blob of sound on the left, which noticeably gets less "dense" between those areas.  That's simply because most music is still engineered for speakers, not headphones.  On music that was binaurally recorded for headphones in a proper concert hall, the HD800 can sound stunningly lifelike, almost approaching a great pair of speakers in its ability to reproduce lifelike sounds.  
 
The other pro is that since the HD800 goes a little overboard in soundstage width, when "corrected" with a good crossfeed implementation (be it DSP or analog circuit) it becomes more "connected" and a bit deeper in soundstage, without becoming too narrow.  With many headphones, if crossfeed is implemented, the soundstage "connects", but is then in turn too narrow, So you have to choose between lifelike width, or lifelike connectedness.  I personally choose connectedness, as nothign drives me crazier than the hard left and hard right sounds that don't even seem to be coming from the same space, like you're listening to different rooms, but it would be nice to have that, without everything sounding pushed towards the center, and few headphones cna do both, even with DSP.  With the HD800 and a good crossfeed implementation you get the best of both worlds.  At that point, the only thing missing from the soundstage recipe is the ability to tell when your head is moving and micro adjust the auditory image based on your headphones, and that's the next big leap for headphones down the pipe.  
 
So, yes, I agree that the HD800's soundstage, when uncorrected, is "unnatural" but so is every headphone on the market.  The pro of the HD800 is that you can fix it with crossfeed, whereas most headphones, with crossfeed, the soundstage sounds more natural in some ways, but can also sound claustrophobic or at least "pushed towards the center".  I'll be excited to see how the Elear and Utopia fare in this regard.  
 
edit: also, it's perfectly fine to like an overly large soundstage, just like it's perfectly fine to like a headphone that has more bass than is really neutral, or more treble.  This isn't a comment at all on what is "best" but rather, what gets closer to reproducing the sound intended by the creators.  It's a perfectly legitimate thing to say "screw what they intended, I want this to sound even wider." And a lot of people certainly make that choice in the headphone world.  Some people chose headphones for convenience, or cost, but some people want more resolution and more extreme left and right sounds than music makers ever intended, and that's why they chose headphones in the first place, over speakers.
 

 

[cladane]

that's an entirely subjective assertion. how can you know that the hd800's soundstage is false when the effect is illusory and varies from headphone to headphone?

I agree with you that soundstage is illusory when listening to headphones, you are right. I wanted to say that the illusion can be closer to reality for the Utopia than for the HD800.
 
This you can notice it comparing the live concert to your headphone listening. It is what @warrenpchi describes:
 

However, as the HD 800’s staging - especially in terms of width - is rather exaggerated in my opinion, the Utopia’s staging winds up sounding far more accurate and realistic.  Rooms sound like a rooms, and not like concert halls, as they should.

 

[moedawg140]

Focal Headphone Lineup Impressions​

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I would like to thank these people for helping out at The Source AV press event on Friday (and Saturday event):
 
@TSAVJason and The Source AV crew
Nicolas Debard, Sébastien Dumas and Sanjay Sharma from Focal
Alden Zhao from Questyle
Bruce Ball from Questyle
@JmoonAK from Astell & Kern
Nathan Allen and Kimber Kable crew
Owen Kwon from Astell & Kern
@shiorisekine from Cavalli Audio
@Stillhart from Cavalli Audio & Audio Head
@warrenpchi from Cavalli Audio
 
It was great hanging out with the press and friends such as @Brian Hunter from Audio Head, @DGCFAD from Headphone.guru and @Netforce from Head-Fi.  I missed Saturday due to Father's Day family activities, but it looks like the attendees had a great time!
 
Let's get to the headphone impressions, and then pictures and videos from the press event!
 
The impressions are based on the listening with these headphones and sources:
 
Headphones
 
ENIGMAcoustics Dharma D1000: $1,190
Focal Elear: $999
Focal Listen: $249
Focal Utopia: $3,999
HIFIMAN HE1000: $2,999
Massdrop x HIFIMAN HE350: $99 Shipped in the US ($15 extra for international orders)
 
All headphones are using their respective stock cables.
 
Sources
 
Simaudio MOON Neo 430HA Headphone Amplifier: $3,500 (or $4,300 with optional DAC)
Questyle Audio QP1R Golden: $899 USD
 
Also mentioned headphones are:
Audeze LCD-3: $1,945
Beyerdnamic T5p 2nd Generation: €1,199.00 (~$1,355.76)
MrSpeakers ETHER C: $1,499.99 - $1,649.99 (1/4” 10’ and 4-Pin XLR 10’ DUM Cable)
Sennheiser HD 800: $1,599.95
Sennheiser HD 800 S: $1,699.95
 
 
Focal Listen

 
The headphone is pretty lightweight, with a rubber type of headband material that touches the top of your head.  There is good clamp strength, but not excessively so.  The earpads are plushy and provide adequate isolation.    I couldn't hear anything around me when listening to my tracks.  The headphone is easy to drive and easy to reach ear blistering levels.  The 1.4 meter cable is a great length, and should have been an included cable with the Elear and Utopia instead of their only 4 meter cables.  There is good clarity, with slight texture to sound.  
 
The Listen emits a balanced sound, as no area of the presentation is highly accentuated to my ears.  The Listen doesn't emit quite a flat sound, though, as there is very slight warmth and very slight brightness to the sound, but it isn't the most detailed or resolute in tonality.  
 
There is bass observed but it isn't the most slamming.  There is good quality to the bass as well, but just about average compared to other headphones around its price point.  The midrange is smooth with just a little bit of reference type signature as well.  
 
Treble is laid back in nature, but is clear in the frequencies it emits.  Imaging is pretty good but again, not the most pinpoint in nature.  Micro and meso detail isn't the clearest but macro detail is pretty good and would be its strong point with that regard.  
 
For the price, though, overall the Listen is worth an audition. 

 
Focal Elear

 
Moving onto the Elear.  Weight isn't much of an issue to me.  The headband is soft and has somewhat of an alcantera material touching the top and radius of your head.  Clamping pressure is sufficient, and is not too tight on the head.  The earpads are soft and have a hybrid pleather/alcantera feel to them.  No issues with discomfort after listening for over an hour either.  The Elear can't swivel completely but there is a pre-cut slot where there is swivel-like play to rotate the earcups.  The earcups do pivot to help provide a great fit with different-shaped heads.  Isolation isn't great because of the open-back nature of the headphone.  The 1.4 meter cable of the Listen should have come packaged with the Elear as an addition to the sole-provided 4 meter cable, as 4 meters is very long to carry around in case you may want to utilize a more portable rig.  The Elear is very easy to drive, and can also reach ear blistering levels with naught distortion at the highest of volumes the QP1R can emit.  
 
The sound of the Elear is overall that of an engaging presentation.  There is a rather large step up in sound clarity and quality from the Listen.  
 
Bass is tighter and extended. The bass isn't the most resolute in nature, but does a good job with emitting a toe-tapping and head-nodding experience for those that may want the most quantity of bass compared to the entry level Listen and top-of-the-line Utopia. If you want the tightest and most resolute bass of the three, the Utopia is the ticket. 
 
The midrange has a liquid sound, with a richness to it. Warm would best describe it as the midrange isn't very reference or flat sounding in exercise. 
 
The treble sounds a little rolled off, but can reach adequate extension when it is called for.  
 
Soundstage is better presented than the Listen, with a greater sense of depth.  However, the soundstage and depth of the open back Elear is more of a closed back such as the ETHER C which does a good job of conveying a perceived soundstage despite the closed back nature of the headphone.  Layering is its strong suit as each instrument is seen as its own and is allowed to exemplify what it can do to the best of its abilities. Detail is highly adequate, and while micro detail is pretty good, I feel the macro detail is its strong suit as the smoothness is inherent to the overall blissful sound of the Elear.  
 
The headphones remind me of a bloomer sounding version of the T5p 2nd Generation upon first listen when both are paired with the QP1R.  I would have to listen back to back to make any definitive statements, though.  For someone that wants a sound that can possibly rival the LCD 3 and the T5p 2nd Generation, the Elear is definitely worth a listen. 

 
Focal Utopia

 
When I laid my eyes on the headphone, I seriously thought it looks amazing in person.  Pictures don't do the beautifully created headphone justice.  From the speaker-inspired Sopra N°2's grill, to the bespoke carbon fiber that makes the yoke, helps to create a truly gorgeous headphone that is able to tie itself seamlessly to its full range speakers in at least aesthetics.  
 
The Utopia is not the lightest headphone as it does weigh 490 grams, which is close to the HE1000's weight, but feels a lot better on the head when going back and forth between the two.  From the very comfortable perforated earpads to the equal weight distribution, the Utopia didn't feel bad on the head at all.  I would say maybe in the future if there was a way to make the headphone a little lighter, that would be a welcome experience.  I will say though, I held the Utopia's magnets/driver in my hand and it is seriously hefty and attributes most of the weight of the headphone simply based on the magnets alone.  The 1.4 meter cable of the Listen should have come packaged with the Utopia as an addition to the sole-provided 4 meter cable, as 4 meters is very long to carry around in case you may want to utilize a more portable rig. 
 
I would describe the Utopia as a wholly intimately immersive experience.  I listened to the Utopia for quite some time during the press event, with talking from the few attendees that was discouraged and mostly away from where I was listening to all three of the new Focal headphones.  Part of the time I listened to an extended demo with Focal's Nicholas Debard on a Simaudio MOON Neo 430HA Headphone Amplifier and a MacBook Pro.  Listening to a few of his songs was quite the experience.  Tracks such as: Upside Down by Jack Johnson - was like an auditory overload of supreme cohesiveness.  An upbeat DEADMAU5 track, Befriend by Quadron, Limit to Your Love by James Blake, and also Nicholas' own nature based track in WAV format simply named ORAGE.  The nature track was recorded with two microphones and was recorded at Marais Poitevin, which is a large area of marshland in western France.  I researched the area and it from the pictures online it looks exactly like what areas of the marshland is sometimes nicknamed: The Green Venice (la Venise Verte).  When listening to the track, it sounded like you were right in the rainforest, looking around your surroundings as the birds chirped and fluttered at all angles around you.  Simply blissful.  
 
The next tracks listened to were J'te Garde Avec Moi by Ariane Moffatt, 3:16 AM by Jhené Aiko, and Peace of Mind by Selah Sue.  The 430HA sounded pretty transparent, but the QP1R was comparatively a good synergistic pairing with the Utopia as well.  All of the tracks were accurate sounding but not the most head-bobbing as there is a brilliant quality to the music, and found myself almost tasting each note, but not exactly being completely lost in the music.  I would presume that may change as I not only listen to the Utopia more, but also pair it with my favorite amplifiers as well instead of mostly the QP1R and the Moon amplifier.  
 
The Utopia's strong points are the clarity, and the speaker-like presentation.  The music doesn't sound tall or wholly expansive like the HE1000.  The music doesn't sound very wide like the HD 800 or HD 800 S.  What the Utopia is able to present is music with an intimate surround sound feel, mimicking 5 channel speakers, not 5.1 as that would mean there is a lot of quantity bass/vehicle subwoofer-esque presentation to the headphone, which in my opinion it doesn't, especially when compared to the HE1000 when I listened back to back.  
 
The Utopia effortlessly presents the music to my ears in a way that is unlike any headphone that I've heard before.  Bass is fast and taut, with detailed decay as well.  Midrange has a reference sound - not very colored, and the treble continues in this tradition as it is extended but is not harsh or fatiguing to my ears.  The Utopia's higher frequencies are crisp, but slightly not to the level of extension and sparkle of an electrostatic such as the Stax SR009 based on the multiple times I've listened to it, or of an electrostatic dynamic hybrid such as the ENIGMAcoustics Dharma D1000 based on listening to my D1000 and the Utopia back to back.  Detail of the Utopia is dynamic, clear sounding, very good, and a more referenced to balanced feel to it - sounds like a concert in your ears. 
 
What makes the Utopia a joy to listen is the presentation.  Performs everything not absolutely to the utmost of other TOTL headphone's capabilities, but does everything almost to the utmost of other TOTL headphones.  I can see the Utopia as an amazing canvas that you, the listener, can make the sound how you want by pairing it with your favorite DAC/Amp or even high-powered DAP.  The Utopia sounds the best with a DAC/Amp, but is seriously no slouch when it comes to sounding great out of a DAP such as the QP1R.  The Utopia is worth a listen as it is a very competent headphone that currently takes a spot in the upper echelon of top of the line headphones at any price available in the world. 
 
Here's a few videos from the press event (uploaded on The Journey of Hi-Fi YouTube channel):
 

Focal's Nicholas Debard giving brief Impressions of the Focal Elear at the press event at The Source AV​

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Focal's Nicolas Debard answering a yoke swivel question at the press event at The Source AV​

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Focal and Cavalli Audio Representatives talking about the Utopia and Liquid Tungsten pairing at the press event at The Source AV​

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I'm showing the easy excursion of both the Elear magnet/driver (first 6 seconds) and the Utopia magnet/driver (the rest of the video) - at the press event at The Source AV​

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Here's the photos from the press event:​

 

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Shooting the breeze (Mr. Sharma, Mr. Debard and @warrenpchi)​

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Mr. Debard explaining the headphone swivel to me​

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Mr. Dumas, Mr. Lord, Mr. Debard​

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Mr. Dumas​

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Mr. Debard and I​

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The Utopia and the Focal Sopra N°2 Loudspeaker (check out the grills!)​

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The Utopia on top of the Focal Grande Utopia EM Loudspeaker​

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I hope this was helpful to you, and it will be great to listen to the Focal lineup paired with more equipment in the future!
 
Have a great day/night!

 

[up late]

I agree with you that soundstage is illusory when listening to headphones, you are right. I wanted to say that the illusion can be closer to reality for the Utopia than for the HD800.

This you can notice it comparing the live concert to your headphone listening. It is what @warrenpchi describes:

again, that is your (and perhaps warren's) opinion. it is an expression of personal preference.

comparing the sound staging capabilities of a headphone reproducing a recording of a musical performance to the experience of actually attending one, brings up too many variables for it to be valid.

feel free to pm me if you want to discuss this topic further rather than derail the thread.

 

[ubs28]

Since the microphones are placed at the performers and not in the audience, I don't see how you can compare a live performance to listening to a recording. It's simply a different presentation.

 

[TSAVJason]

I was at the Source event this Saturday. Had the chance to compare Utopia against HD800 and HD800S with the music I familiar with. All driven by the Cavalli prototype amp at the booth. Note that I do not take price into consideration AT ALL:



Utopia vs HD800: Utopia has a great high. Just as detailed as HD800, but without the fatigue. HD800's highs feel kind of "cheap" and in-your-face. The midrange and bass on Utopia is full and engaging, compared to the hollow, emotionless midrange and midbass of HD800. The HD800, however, has a slight advantage in overall transparency, and a huge advantage in sounstage. Even though cello sounds too bright on HD800, I can tell how far away I am from the instrument better than with Utopia.

Overall, these two cans' sound signature (neutral vs bright) are too different to be compared. Each has its pros and cons. If priced equally, I'd say go audition and pick the one that meets your taste. 



Utopia vs HD800S (with Kimber cable): I realize the real competition starts here the second I play music on HD800S. Going back and forth a couple times, I can confirm that the two are tuned very similarly. Utopia has slightly more bass quantity. Other than that, I'd say both are the definition of neutral. 

Both are engaging in the midrange, but instruments are more separated on HD800S. Both have detailed, extended yet controlled highs, but HD800S conveys a better sense of decay and timber. Bass are equally detailed. Neither has prominent bass, but the Utopia has slight more bass quantity. The HD800S, again, takes the slight advantage of overall clarity and transparency, possibly because of having slightly less bass. 

Overall, these two cans worth a toe-to-toe comparison (neutral vs neutral). Even though Utopia has a little more bass, it was far from the quantity that makes Utopia stand out as a "bassy yet good" headphones. If priced equally, with advantages in so many categories and only one disadvantage (a little too bass-light to my taste) which is neither a strength of Utopia, HD800S won.



Oh, and did I mention Utopia looks (in my hands) and feels (on my head) cheap standing next to HD800S and its sibling? The comfort and fit with Senns are simply on a different stratosphere. 

Now I'll release this tid bit of information. Every Focal headphone was fresh out of the box, no break in time while every other headphone was well established in its break in. It takes about 30 hours on the Utopia and about 20 on the Elear to get them opened up to full voice. So I do understand some of these less positive comments. Focal was supposed to bring in 12 of each model that were fully broken in for our review date but unfortunately that didn't happen. The sets of these we were provided for our audition before the release were already well established on break in and had none of the issues some of you make mention of. The sound stage is large and placement is amazing after break in. Bass is as true as it can be but not like some seem to expect. It is not boomy or muddy. It is accurate and realistic. Overall tonal balance is incredible and dynamic., mids are forward but not aggressive and the highs are like silk in your ears and never lacking. This is my impression and others of the full voice Utopia. The Elear is a bit more bass while the mids sit back a little and the highs carry out cleanly and smoothly both sides of the frequency range extend very well. The Listen was a pleasant surprise in that for $250 it was more than we expected. Clean, punchy and not muddy like closed back cans in that price range are. Everyone hears differently but in general there is no way the 800S or 800's win against the utopia. When you compare the Elear to the 800S the 800S is definitely the better performer in a number of ways other than bass but there is a significant price difference. If you are price sensitive I can understand why you might prefer the 800S over the Utopia being that is more than twice the price.

 

[fjrabon]

Since the microphones are placed at the performers and not in the audience, I don't see how you can compare a live performance to listening to a recording. It's simply a different presentation.

That totally depends on how the concert is recorded.  Typically classical is recorded with a matrix of microphones, some above the audience, some near the front of the stage, some suspended above the stage.  Or with a two microphone setup in a single good seat in the audience, usually slightly elevated.  It's almost never recorded solely with on stage microphones.
 
Rock concerts are all over the place.  some use a matrix mix, some use a board mix, some even use an audience based mix.
 
Jazz is even more varied, some going with basically a classical approach, some going with a rock approach, some going with a hybrid.  
 
Even with that, a good live producer/engineering team will compensate that with a variety of technology and tricks, to make it sound more like you're in a really good sounding live show, rather than it being a studio album.

 

[FiftyKilo]

@ TSAVJason, please could you tell me, if the Utopia is able to play big Music realy loud ? ( and is still clean and not booming ? )
Thanks !
Ralf  

 

[raypin]

mmm.....so far, no negative review of the Utopia.............................except from the armchair generals who has not seen, touched, felt or heard the Utopia except in their wildest dreams. lol! Excellent flow of information from people I trust. Keep it going.......I can only live vicariously through your ears...........until I get my pair in a few weeks time.

 

[Sophonax]

  I was at the Source event this Saturday. Had the chance to compare Utopia against HD800 and HD800S with the music I familiar with. All driven by the Cavalli prototype amp at the booth. Note that I do not take price into consideration AT ALL:
...
Utopia vs HD800S (with Kimber cable): I realize the real competition starts here the second I play music on HD800S.
...
Overall, these two cans worth a toe-to-toe comparison (neutral vs neutral). Even though Utopia has a little more bass, it was far from the quantity that makes Utopia stand out as a "bassy yet good" headphones. If priced equally, with advantages in so many categories and only one disadvantage (a little too bass-light to my taste) which is neither a strength of Utopia, HD800S won.

 
Thanks for the impressions! It's good to get some more opinions from end users into the conversation. Taken in total, so far impressions on the Utopia seem universally positive but not overwhelmingly so. It's sounding like the Utopia is yet another high-end option presenting a different flavor, but not clearly better or worse than many of the other current flagships.
 

Everyone hears differently but in general there is no way the 800S or 800's win against the utopia.... If you are price sensitive I can understand why you might prefer the 800S over the Utopia being that is more than twice the price.

 
Edric clearly thought otherwise, claiming the HD800S sounded superior to him regardless of price.

 

[up late]

mmm.....so far, no negative review of the Utopia.............................except from the armchair generals who has not seen, touched, felt or heard the Utopia except in their wildest dreams. lol! Excellent flow of information from people I trust. Keep it going.......I can only live vicariously through your ears...........until I get my pair in a few weeks time.

and neither have you

you'd hope that it wouldn't receive a negative review at that price. with the exception of one glowing post, the impression i have of the utopia so far is that it is a highly competent flagship can that isn't class leading in any particular area sonically. build quality appears excellent. still early days tho.