[MidFiMoney]

MidFiMoney
I was hesitant to weigh in on the three headphones you've asked about, but since I haven't seen my perspective posted maybe you'll find this useful...

I'll start by saying that for my listening preference, I'm seeking a neutral response from my entire signal chain. So if you prefer a brighter presentation, adjust my perspective accordingly.

I own the Utopia, HD800, and I have spent time listening to both the HD800S and the Z1R. Of these choices, it is no contest that the Utopia is the best headphone in articulation, separation, and balance across the spectrum.

After the Utopia, it's a choice between the HD800 and the HD800S. This choice for me comes with a caveat: I find the both of them lacking in bass response and overly emphasizing the upper mids and treble, the 800 more than the 800S. The 800S only starts to address the issues of the 800. To be able to listen to the HD800 for all kinds of genres, especially those that have a lot treble and bass like electronica, I use Sonarworks which does an unbelievable job of flattening the HD800's frequency response. Because of how well Sonarworks corrects the HD800, there is no need to spend more money on the HD800S, particularly since the HD800S still has similar flaws as the HD800, even though it is to a lesser degree, and Sonarworks does not have a project file for the HD800S. In short, save some money and get the HD800 and use Sonarworks.

As for the Z1R, I demoed it with a portable DAC/amp. To be fair though the DAC/amp was Sony's own PHA-3 and it was used with Sony's own balanced cables into the PHA-3, which provided plenty of power to drive the Z1R. I found that detail retrieval was lacking when there are a lot musical elements present. It couldn't articulate everything that was going on. Female vocals were riddled with sibilance. And I found bass response was abruptly stopping instead of plunging deep into the lower frequencies. One particular electronica song I was testing with was just unlistenable. I will say that the Z1R may perform better with a better DAC and amp, but I can't understand why it would be so bad with Sony's own former flagship portable DAC/amp.

My advice is if you're going to buy only one headphone for the next couple years, then go with the Utopia. If you want to save some money, then get the HD800 and Sonarworks. Find an unmodified (you don't want the frequency response modified if you're going to use Sonarworks) used HD800 and Sonarworks and you're good to go for under $1000.

That is an interesting perspective and I really appreciate you taking the time to chime in. I am definitely not opposed to adding software to the signal chain. I use iZotope Ozone every now and then. I've heard of Sonarworks but I may have mistakenly written it off as snake oil many moons ago. I suppose I should go back and read up on it. That might be a game changer right there. How does Sonarworks imapct the bass on the HD800? Thanks again!

 

[MidFiMoney]

Or even say to hell with it and keep both... >

Do it!

 

[dannybgoode]

Do it!

Nope, just had a final listen to the utopia before I boxed them up and I definitely prefer the HEK. The more I listen to them the less I feel they give away to the Utopia.

You know-they are desparately close-almost thing in it. There's just an openness to the HEK that isn't there with the Utopia.

To counter the Utopia is a slightly fuller sound. Guitars have a touch more attack and decay and more shape to the note. Each pluck is felt a little more, Similarly with drums there is a shade more subtance.

But then back to the HEK it counters with notes hanging in the air a touch longer giving violins for example an ethereal texture.

And so it goes back and forth.

But no, I prefer the HEK and it would be entirely frivolous to keep them both. And besides I can afford a Schiit Gungnir Multibit this way

They still look like something you'd find in a skip though (build quality is actually very good for the record they just look odd ).

 

[Sonic Defender]

@MidFiMoney


As for the Z1R, I demoed it with a portable DAC/amp. To be fair though the DAC/amp was Sony's own PHA-3 and it was used with Sony's own balanced cables into the PHA-3, which provided plenty of power to drive the Z1R. I found that detail retrieval was lacking when there are a lot musical elements present. It couldn't articulate everything that was going on. Female vocals were riddled with sibilance. And I found bass response was abruptly stopping instead of plunging deep into the lower frequencies. One particular electronica song I was testing with was just unlistenable. I will say that the Z1R may perform better with a better DAC and amp, but I can't understand why it would be so bad with Sony's own former flagship portable DAC/amp.
 

Different strokes for different folks, but I listen to plenty of female vocals and electronica and I do not at all have your experience with the Z1R and I agree it would have nothing to do with the amp, the PHA3 should have been plenty good enough. The bass goes very deep with authority, but perhaps not as deep as the Utopia (which I haven't heard) but riddled with sibilance is just extremely hard to get my head around.

 

[MidFiMoney]

Nope, just had a final listen to the utopia before I boxed them up and I definitely prefer the HEK. The more I listen to them the less I feel they give away to the Utopia.

You know-they are desparately close-almost thing in it. There's just an openness to the HEK that isn't there with the Utopia.

To counter the Utopia is a slightly fuller sound. Guitars have a touch more attack and decay and more shape to the note. Each pluck is felt a little more, Similarly with drums there is a shade more subtance.

But then back to the HEK it counters with notes hanging in the air a touch longer giving violins for example an ethereal texture.

And so it goes back and forth.

But no, I prefer the HEK and it would be entirely frivolous to keep them both. And besides I can afford a Schiit Gungnir Multibit this way

They still look like something you'd find in a skip though (build quality is actually very good for the record they just look odd

).

It sounds like you've made a carefully deliberated decision. I definitely want to hear them both, preferably side by side. 

 

[MacedonianHero]

@MidFiMoney
I was hesitant to weigh in on the three headphones you've asked about, but since I haven't seen my perspective posted maybe you'll find this useful...

I'll start by saying that for my listening preference, I'm seeking a neutral response from my entire signal chain. So if you prefer a brighter presentation, adjust my perspective accordingly.

I own the Utopia, HD800, and I have spent time listening to both the HD800S and the Z1R. Of these choices, it is no contest that the Utopia is the best headphone in articulation, separation, and balance across the spectrum.

After the Utopia, it's a choice between the HD800 and the HD800S. This choice for me comes with a caveat: I find the both of them lacking in bass response and overly emphasizing the upper mids and treble, the 800 more than the 800S. The 800S only starts to address the issues of the 800. To be able to listen to the HD800 for all kinds of genres, especially those that have a lot treble and bass like electronica, I use Sonarworks which does an unbelievable job of flattening the HD800's frequency response. Because of how well Sonarworks corrects the HD800, there is no need to spend more money on the HD800S, particularly since the HD800S still has similar flaws as the HD800, even though it is to a lesser degree, and Sonarworks does not have a project file for the HD800S. In short, save some money and get the HD800 and use Sonarworks.

As for the Z1R, I demoed it with a portable DAC/amp. To be fair though the DAC/amp was Sony's own PHA-3 and it was used with Sony's own balanced cables into the PHA-3, which provided plenty of power to drive the Z1R. I found that detail retrieval was lacking when there are a lot musical elements present. It couldn't articulate everything that was going on. Female vocals were riddled with sibilance. And I found bass response was abruptly stopping instead of plunging deep into the lower frequencies. One particular electronica song I was testing with was just unlistenable. I will say that the Z1R may perform better with a better DAC and amp, but I can't understand why it would be so bad with Sony's own former flagship portable DAC/amp.

My advice is if you're going to buy only one headphone for the next couple years, then go with the Utopia. If you want to save some money, then get the HD800 and Sonarworks. Find an unmodified (you don't want the frequency response modified if you're going to use Sonarworks) used HD800 and Sonarworks and you're good to go for under $1000.

 
A lot of that "lacking of detail" comes from the PHA-3...it's just not very good regardless of what headphone I used with it (HD800S, Utopia, Z1R, etc...). The new top 2 Walkmans are quite good thankfully. I'm listening to the Z1R's with Tidal Master (Miles Davis' "Tutu") and the Benchmark DAC3 HGC and the level of details and soundstaging is simply amazing!

 

[TimeLord]

That is an interesting perspective and I really appreciate you taking the time to chime in. I am definitely not opposed to adding software to the signal chain. I use iZotope Ozone every now and then. I've heard of Sonarworks but I may have mistakenly written it off as snake oil many moons ago. I suppose I should go back and read up on it. That might be a game changer right there. How does Sonarworks imapct the bass on the HD800? Thanks again!

The interesting thing is when I bought the HD800, I only bought it as a reference point. What I mean is that I knew it would not be a go to headphone for me because, unmodified, it only worked well for acoustic type music. This left too many of my albums out in the cold. At the same time, because so many people used it as a measuring stick, I wanted to have it around to do comparisons. I was on the verge of doing the super DuPont mod when I stumbled upon Sonarworks. It is a game changer for the HD800.

Listening to the HD800 directly vs through Sonarworks is like night and day difference. Suddenly those treble peaks are shaved and the bass response is more than sufficient for any genre including electronica and hip-hop.

Because the HD800 is wonderfully engineered, it takes EQ incredibly well. By comparison, the Beyer T1 through Sonarworks is still a very flawed headphone. It can't accept the adjustments like the HD800 can.

In my opinion, Sonarworks is a no brainer for anyone that owns headphones they support. Particularly, well engineered headphones that can respond to the adjustments. I also use Sonarworks with my LCD-X and here too there are improvements being realized.

Do some reading about it and you'll have to work through some of its finickiness to get it installed, but it's worth it.

 

[TimeLord]

A lot of that "lacking of detail" comes from the PHA-3...it's just not very good regardless of what headphone I used with it (HD800S, Utopia, Z1R, etc...). The new top 2 Walkmans are quite good thankfully. I'm listening to the Z1R's with Tidal Master (Miles Davis' "Tutu") and the Benchmark DAC3 HGC and the level of details and soundstaging is simply amazing!

Nothing against Miles Davis, but can you test the Z1R with modern electronica that has a lot going on at once and see how well it retrieves details? I'll suggest this test track: Grimes - Medieval Warfare

I had really wanted the Z1R to be good, because I have been in search of a TOTL closed-back for some time now. It just didn't sound good.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Nothing against Miles Davis, but can you test the Z1R with modern electronica that has a lot going on at once and see how well it retrieves details? I'll suggest this test track: Grimes - Medieval Warfare

I had really wanted the Z1R to be good, because I have been in search of a TOTL closed-back for some time now. It just didn't sound good.

 
I don't normally listen to much electronica. But with say Daft Punk, they are outstanding and the very best closed-back headphones I've come across yet. Please don't let the PHA-3 handicap your assessments...I'd strongly suggest you hear them again on a more worthy amp/DAC. 
 
Currawong just got a pair to listen to and was quite impressed as well with them (on the Z1R thread in case you're interested). Amos and I  often hear things quite similarly. 

 

[MidFiMoney]

The interesting thing is when I bought the HD800, I only bought it as a reference point. What I mean is that I knew it would not be a go to headphone for me because, unmodified, it only worked well for acoustic type music. This left too many of my albums out in the cold. At the same time, because so many people used it as a measuring stick, I wanted to have it around to do comparisons. I was on the verge of doing the super DuPont mod when I stumbled upon Sonarworks. It is a game changer for the HD800.

Listening to the HD800 directly vs through Sonarworks is like night and day difference. Suddenly those treble peaks are shaved and the bass response is more than sufficient for any genre including electronica and hip-hop.

Because the HD800 is wonderfully engineered, it takes EQ incredibly well. By comparison, the Beyer T1 through Sonarworks is still a very flawed headphone. It can't accept the adjustments like the HD800 can.

In my opinion, Sonarworks is a no brainer for anyone that owns headphones they support. Particularly, well engineered headphones that can respond to the adjustments. I also use Sonarworks with my LCD-X and here too there are improvements being realized.

Do some reading about it and you'll have to work through some of its finickiness to get it installed, but it's worth it.

I'm definitely going to look into that software. I doubt they have files for the Focal cans but I'd be interested in seeing what it can do for my Elear (while I still have them).

 

[TSAVJason]

A lot of that "lacking of detail" comes from the PHA-3...it's just not very good regardless of what headphone I used with it (HD800S, Utopia, Z1R, etc...). The new top 2 Walkmans are quite good thankfully. I'm listening to the Z1R's with Tidal Master (Miles Davis' "Tutu") and the Benchmark DAC3 HGC and the level of details and soundstaging is simply amazing!

Try that same track TUTU by Al Jarreau/George Benson.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Try that same track TUTU by Al Jarreau/George Benson.

Will do! Hope it's on Tidal.

 

[TimeLord]

I don't normally listen to much electronica. But with say Daft Punk, they are outstanding and the very best closed-back headphones I've come across yet. Please don't let the PHA-3 handicap your assessments...I'd strongly suggest you hear them again on a more worthy amp/DAC. 

Currawong just got a pair to listen to and was quite impressed as well with them (on the Z1R thread in case you're interested). Amos and I  often hear things quite similarly. 

Hopefully I'll get a chance to try them again where I can put them on my desktop setup. Or else, my Liquid Spark will get here soon.

 

[TimeLord]

I'm definitely going to look into that software. I doubt they have files for the Focal cans but I'd be interested in seeing what it can do for my Elear (while I still have them).

They don't support the Elear or the Utopia, but they do support the Focal Spirit. Hopefully they are working on adding more headphones.

 

[Sonic Defender]

Hopefully I'll get a chance to try them again where I can put them on my desktop setup. Or else, my Liquid Spark will get here soon.

I listen to tons of electronica mate, and the Z1R is well up to the task, well up to the task be it from my Mojo or my main NAD rig. It is quite possible the signature just doesn't do it for you, that happens and no worries. I have read of people who just couldn't get down with the Utopia either which is of course surprising given their wide praise.