Focal Elear and Utopia Review / Preview With Measurements - Head-Fi TV

[james6333]

Personally, I don't believe in burn in, at all. Especially not when people say things like "after 200 hours" that's a long, long time. I think it's totally psychological. I know not everyone agrees with that, and that's fine

From the Focal SM9 manual.

"Running inAs in all brand new loudspeaker the drivers need some run in period: they are mechanical elements demanding a little time tosettle and adapt to the climatic environment This period will vary depending of the working conditions and may take up to a fewweeks. Avoid pushing the speakers very hard during their first hours of use, but to accelerate the run-in process it is good practiceto operate the speakers at moderate levels for 20 hours or so, with programmes having significant low frequency content. Onlyonce the transducers have come to stabilize will you get the optimum performance."

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/708250/Focal-Sm9.html?page=6#manual

 

[jamato8]

  Personally, I don't believe in burn in, at all. Especially not when people say things like "after 200 hours" that's a long, long time. I think it's totally psychological. I know not everyone agrees with that, and that's fine

That is your option and if it works for you great. I have built and designed equipment and communicated with many people that have designed and people who have high end systems and haven't run into anyone with these systems or designers that didn't hear changes in equipment. Audio note UK has some systems that take hundreds of hours. It isn't based on the head burning in, it is listening against a baseline, a amp, speaker, headphone etc, that is well known and stabilized against a new unknown. In this case the unknown is the Utopia and basing the sound and what it is doing against a few other headphones I have that are well burned in. So if the characteristic of the sound changes, it is easy for me do discern. There are many papers on dielectric, mechanics and other changes as to burn in or whatever you want to call it. 
 
Anyway, the Utopia are sounding very fine. I love the way they pull out the micro details and can also pull music apart in a natural way so you hear more of it and the interplay of instruments and environment. 

 

[figaro69]

The big question for me is as follows:
 
I have never heard the Utopias; neither have I ever heard the Stax 009s driven by the Blue Hawaii or any other stax amp.  Now to the question:  is the SR009/Blue Hawaii combo so head-and-shoulders above the rest of the dynamic and planar headphones that if money is no concern, one would have to get it? Or, is the Utopia (driven by, say, my McIntosh MHA-100, Ray Samuels Darkstar, or Auralic Taurus (all using the Auralic Vega DAC)  so close to the SR009/Blue Hawaii combo that it would not be really worth it getting the stax combo (i.e., $6000 dollars more than the Utopia alone) and go through the hassle of tubes and having to bias the amp?  Of course, this question is directed to the people who have been luck enough to have heard both the Utopias and SR009s optimally driven.

 

[thatonenoob]

  The big question for me is as follows:
 
I have never heard the Utopias; neither have I ever heard the Stax 009s driven by the Blue Hawaii or any other stax amp.  Now to the question:  is the SR009/Blue Hawaii combo so head-and-shoulders above the rest of the dynamic and planar headphones that if money is no concern, one would have to get it? Or, is the Utopia (driven by, say, my McIntosh MHA-100, Ray Samuels Darkstar, or Auralic Taurus (all using the Auralic Vega DAC)  so close to the SR009/Blue Hawaii combo that it would not be really worth it getting the stax combo (i.e., $6000 dollars more than the Utopia alone) and go through the hassle of tubes and having to bias the amp?  Of course, this question is directed to the people who have been luck enough to have heard both the Utopias and SR009s optimally driven.

Two very different sounds.
 
To me, the Utopia is among the best that a dynamic driver can offer.  Incredibly natural sound, not fatiguing but still very much capable for critical listening.  There is still a physical impact from the bass, less so than the Elear though. To me, it has the right amount of texture throughout the sound and the end result is very refined.
 
The Stax has the wow factor.  Infinite highs and speed that'll make your jaw drop the first time you hear it. Unfortunately, I can't say I enjoyed the bass as much, and indeed it does tend to get slightly fatiguing after a while.  I would like to say that in terms of soundstage, imaging, and separation, it is the more technical of the two.
 
Both are on my "end-game" list.  However, for simply music enjoyment - Utopia is where I'd want to be (for now).

 

[snetman]

From my impressions of the Elear, they do have a unique signature to their sound (particularly the bass in my opinion). However, this different sound does not seem better to me. It's more of a novelty but does not improve the accuracy of the instruments.

You know that sound of a huge loudspeaker shaking the driver at a party or club or concert? It has that unique, big physical sound of hearing a driver shake that seems separate from the bass being played by the music itself. Does that make sense? I mean, it's nice, and if you pump your volume above the healthy limit of 85 dB, this physicality shakes your ears themselves in a pleasing way, but that's just going to cause permanent hearing loss, so you can't even use that volume.

At the volume I had to keep the headphones at, they are just not better than what the HD800 S or the HD650 can achieve. The Elear, to me, sounds like a hybrid of the 650 and 800 S. It brings the thump of 650's and clarity of 800 S, but does not do a better musical job at either. It's as if the $1000 is exactly where it should be priced between the cheaper and more expensive 650 and 800 S, respectively. If I could only spend $1000, I might get the Elear, but there is much less joy compared to my experience with alternating between using the 650 and 800 S.

It's fine if you don't like them. I was raising the question of whether the burn in that was being described wasn't just getting used to a new sound presentation, and not the hp itself changing. How much would beryllium drivers, with their special rigidity and damping properties, change with 50 hours of use?

 

[snetman]

I'm not disputing that. What I meant was, when you think that the fault in the FR was caused by the pads and thus could easily be corrected, not correcting it is unbelievably stupid. 

I would dispute your premise of the "fault in the FR caused by the pads". These cans were developed over a period of 4 years. I would think that the tuning/FR -- which is a result of the driver assembly, enclosure, and pads together -- is deliberate and the result that the engineering team wanted.

Whether you like the intended tuning, and whatever role the pads play in that, is a completely separate issue.

 

[tkddans]

It's fine if you don't like them. I was raising the question of whether the burn in that was being described wasn't just getting used to a new sound presentation, and not the hp itself changing. How much would beryllium drivers, with their special rigidity and damping properties, change with 50 hours of use?

My bad, I should have used a multi-quote. I was actually responding the the dialogue as a whole? Idk I was very tired when I responded haha. Here's the posts that got me started:

 
I guess I started with a response regarding the sound unique to the Elear, but it developed quickly into my own tangent about my experience with the headphones regarding my feelings on that sound.
 
I don't like it yet It's not magical to me and the burn in is unlikely to change it. I've seen tests run, by Tyll Hertsen, on whether the frequency response changes after use, and it does happen according to those tests. But Tyll said that while he noticed an audible difference, it was too small to change opinions over for any headphone. Burn in is real mechanically, it can be heard, but this change does not significantly change the quality of the music or experience. Here is his burn-in measurements and commentary: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/measurement-and-audibility-headphone-break-page-4#UiF4QdYS8msqUZ2W.97
 
A quote from his article: "The one thing I think I have proved, however, is that if break-in does exist, it is not a large effect. When people talk about night and day changes in headphones with break-in, they are exaggerating [...] While headphones change little over time, their ability to deliver pleasure may improve markedly [...] The miracle is in your head ... not in the headphones."
 
He goes on for four pages in the article, so don't stop reading on the first page

 

[snetman]

tkddans yeah it's a good article. Thanks for reminding me of it. I could argue that what Tyll's proved was that break-in exists for the AKG he tested

Sounds like the Elear may not be for you.

 

[tradyblix]

 
 I have built and designed equipment and communicated with many people that have designed and people who have high end systems and haven't run into anyone with these systems or designers that didn't hear changes in equipment.
 

 
Fair enough. It's a discussion that must have happened around here ad nauseum for many years and will probably go on forever. 
 
I certainly have not either the experience in the industry you have building and designing audio equipment nor the tens of thousand of dollars of gear you seem to own, so my opinion must be taken with a grain of salt. 
 
On the other hand - I know I can hear audibly different results just by changing the tube out on the same identical pair of headphones. So... there's so many reasons why people can hear such differences that I'd rather attribute it to things like that over some kind of long term burn in that changes products fundamentally - in many cases from "bad" to "good"... over long time scales.
 
But perhaps i'm wrong. 
 
Let's face it.. nobody knows what other people are really hearing anyway - since it's your brain that is a critical part of the audio reproduction chain Otherwise these are just air pressure variations
 
That's probably why you'll hear people variously describe a headphone as both dark and bright.... Well it can't be both can it ? Maybe it needs more burn in time  

 

[TWerk]

I considered that but the changes were great enough that it had to be more than that. Going from a warm bassy headphone like the the TH900 to a neutral headphone always takes an adjustment period to get used to the neutral signature again.

But this was different. My first impression on Day 1 was that the soundstage was really closed in compared to the TH900 and HD800 which have always been nice and wide. But on Day 2 the Utopia sounded just fine. It really felt like it had opened up. I am going to do some actual A-Bing tonight with the TH900 and HD800. Last 2 days I have only been listening to the Utopia

Idk how you can call the Lawton modded th900 a warm headphone. It had a lot of treble sparkle and to me, got fatiguing. I liked them a lot outside of the peaky treble spikes. And yes, mine was Lawton modded also.

Im getting my Elear in about 2 weeks. I hope the treble is agreeable and not too sharp.

 

[The Walrus]

I would dispute your premise of the "fault in the FR caused by the pads". These cans were developed over a period of 4 years. I would think that the tuning/FR -- which is a result of the driver assembly, enclosure, and pads together -- is deliberate and the result that the engineering team wanted.

Whether you like the intended tuning, and whatever role the pads play in that, is a completely separate issue.

Their FR graphs are almost identical with Utopia except a 10+ dB dip at 4KHz. How is that an intended tuning? 
What if they showed let's say 10% THD in measurements? Or serious crosstalk? Would they be intended as well just because they took 4 years to develop? 
I'd like to hear from Focal about it. 

 

[phonomat]

   
Fair enough. It's a discussion that must have happened around here ad nauseum for many years and will probably go on forever. 
 
I certainly have not either the experience in the industry you have building and designing audio equipment nor the tens of thousand of dollars of gear you seem to own, so my opinion must be taken with a grain of salt. 
 
On the other hand - I know I can hear audibly different results just by changing the tube out on the same identical pair of headphones. So... there's so many reasons why people can hear such differences that I'd rather attribute it to things like that over some kind of long term burn in that changes products fundamentally - in many cases from "bad" to "good"... over long time scales.
 
But perhaps i'm wrong. 
 
Let's face it.. nobody knows what other people are really hearing anyway - since it's your brain that is a critical part of the audio reproduction chain Otherwise these are just air pressure variations
 
That's probably why you'll hear people variously describe a headphone as both dark and bright.... Well it can't be both can it ? Maybe it needs more burn in time  

 
 

Idk how you can call the Lawton modded th900 a warm headphone. It had a lot of treble sparkle and to me, got fatiguing. I liked them a lot outside of the peaky treble spikes. And yes, mine was Lawton modded also.

Im getting my Elear in about 2 weeks. I hope the treble is agreeable and not too sharp.

 
These two posts in a row made me smile.

 

[pervysage]

Idk how you can call the Lawton modded th900 a warm headphone. It had a lot of treble sparkle and to me, got fatiguing. I liked them a lot outside of the peaky treble spikes. And yes, mine was Lawton modded also.

Im getting my Elear in about 2 weeks. I hope the treble is agreeable and not too sharp.

When I said warm I was thinking mostly of the low end but I suppose it's not the best word to describe the top end. A stock TH900, I completely agree with you, can be pretty fatiguing on the highs. I found the Lawton mods solved my gripes with the stock TH900. But everyone has different sensitivity levels to treble.

You had both the cups and tuning kit done I'm assuming?

 

[TWerk]

I had the tuning kit installed, kept stock cups though.
 
Thought they were fantastic outside of those treble peaks. Idk which frequencies bothered me, but it could get really sharp.
 
I listen to a lot of electronic, pop, dance, etc, which can be mixed with hot treble, so that's probably a lot of it too.
 
I'm kind of hopeful with this Elear purchase... my favorite IEM (EPH-100) seems to have a bit of similar tuning. On its frequency graph, it has a dip in 3-6 hz, and a heavy bass boost.
 
I love the way EPH-100 sounds... can anyone agree this somewhat resembles the Elear's frequency response?
(Apart from the bigger magnitude of the bass boost on the EPH-100, I think they look kind of similar...)
 
 

 

 

[snetman]

How is that an intended tuning? 

I think you're confusing "intended" with "ideal." There are compromises in every product's design, and the Elears/Utopias are no exception. I would bet that there is nothing about the design, materials, tuning that isn't intentional. That doesn't mean there is nothing that could be improved. Only that the final product represents a lot of decisions and compromises within some constraints and given those constraints, what you see is completely intentional.