Flawless albums
Jun 19, 2011 at 9:46 PM Post #256 of 941
Kevin Gilbert - Shaming of the True
David and David - Boomtown
Peter Gabriel - Security
Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here
Frank Zappa - Apostrophe
David Gilmour - David Gilmour
The Orb - The Orb's Adventures Beyond the Underworld
Miles Davis - Bitches Brew
Prince - Come
Lou Reed - New York
 
This is a top of my head list, and by no means complete. Just a quick list of albums I love, and make me feel good when I listen to them.
 
 
Jun 19, 2011 at 9:54 PM Post #257 of 941


Quote:
Start with Gang of Four, the Jam,  and the Cure's album then continue from there. Many of the albums I mentioned above are just not my personal picks but are thought of as classics by many who have had a chance to hear them, including Pitchfork Media writers and other critics.
 
See also Pitchfork's list:
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/unj/pitchforkmedias_top_100_albums_of_the_70s
and
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/unj/pitchforkmedias_top_100_albums_of_the_80s
 
 


I forgot , the cure Ive heard too, but i didnt like it. not sure about the rest judging by genres, doesnt look like my kind of music.
 


Quote:
Alice in Chains - Jar of Flies


a nice short one indeed. but "love song" is unbearable 
 
Jun 19, 2011 at 10:47 PM Post #259 of 941


Quote:
I forgot , the cure Ive heard too, but i didnt like it. not sure about the rest judging by genres, doesnt look like my kind of music.
 



a nice short one indeed. but "love song" is unbearable 

Yes, probably not your cup of tea. I would still check out the Jam and Gang of Four.
I should add that the Cure's later stuff is different from that first album.
 
Here is some Jam (off of same album mentioned above):
 

 
and some Gang of Four (Damaged Goods)
 

 
and the Cure (10:15 Saturday Night)

 
 
 
Jun 20, 2011 at 2:08 AM Post #260 of 941


Quote:
 

Now see, as a proud Noo Yawkah, I gotta note that these punk gems predated the Pistols, as did the Stooges and the New York Dolls.
 

 
The Ramones - Ramones
 
 

 
The Ramones - Leave Home
 
 
…and closer the Pistols' home there was this certified bit of awesomeness…
 

 
The Clash
 
…all are infinitely listenable…



I'm well aware of that my friend, The Ramones was Sid's fave band!, but take a look at them.... The punk movement was about more than just music (the Clash were later than the Pistols)
 

 
1976
 
Jun 20, 2011 at 4:03 AM Post #261 of 941


Quote:
[Never Mind the B*ll*cks] was perfect by its own definitions. It went against all the preconceived ideas that had established the rock canon at the time, and still exist in some parts of the mainstream to this day.


I'm going to disagree. Perfection was an aspiration of the albums that Punk derided and attacked; prog rock was aiming at perfection, Punk was aiming at imperfection. It seems like a complete disbasement of this thread that now we can say that an album is perfect "by its own definitions". For example, one of the cherished ideas of punk was that musicianship not be an obstacle to self-expression, so now we have to say that NMTB is "flawless" because it isn't performed very competently. Just because you like an album, doesn't mean you have to find a contrived way to attach the words "perfect" or "flawless" to it.
 
"By its own definitions", Californication had the best mastering ever, but no one is going to put it up for a thread on perfect mastering ... at least, not sincerely, on these forums.
 
 
Jun 20, 2011 at 9:45 AM Post #262 of 941

 
Quote:
I'm well aware of that my friend, The Ramones was Sid's fave band!, but take a look at them.... The punk movement was about more than just music (the Clash were later than the Pistols)

 

 
1976


Kinda interesting that everyone's rushing in to say Never Mind The Bollocks preceded The Clash when actually the Clash album was released in the spring of '77 while Never Mind The Bollocks came out in the fall. But that wasn't my point anyway. If we're talking about six months to a year or so, the point is that everyone was getting their sh-t together and recording more or less contiguously, so crediting the Pistols' album with birthing the "punk movement" is a bit overstated. It's true that they were popularizers, though, giving punk its most public face in the mainstream at the time. As for their style and attitude, well…more than one historian has attributed some of it to things their manager, Malcolm McLaren, picked up from folks in Noo Yawk, the Dolls in particular. I think the bottom line (at least, for this thread) may be that the early punks produced a surprising number of high-quality records.
 
Jun 20, 2011 at 10:18 AM Post #263 of 941


Quote:
I'm going to disagree. Perfection was an aspiration of the albums that Punk derided and attacked; prog rock was aiming at perfection, Punk was aiming at imperfection. It seems like a complete disbasement of this thread that now we can say that an album is perfect "by its own definitions". For example, one of the cherished ideas of punk was that musicianship not be an obstacle to self-expression, so now we have to say that NMTB is "flawless" because it isn't performed very competently. Just because you like an album, doesn't mean you have to find a contrived way to attach the words "perfect" or "flawless" to it.
 
"By its own definitions", Californication had the best mastering ever, but no one is going to put it up for a thread on perfect mastering ... at least, not sincerely, on these forums.
 

Punk rock, at least in its initial form, wasn't going after perfection; it was going against the status quo. Prog rock took a hit because it was perceived as being pompous, boring, and had nothing to say. Many bands did strive on amateurism, but those bands are mostly forgotten. As for the early punk bands, often the members were musicians that had been around for a while playing in pub rock bands. The Clash is one example, they were all excellent musicians, and they lived through the punk movement to popular acceptance.
 
England's punk scene had political and economic roots. The economy in the United Kingdom was in poor shape, and unemployment rates were at an all-time high. England's youth were angry, rebellious and out of work. They had strong opinions and a lot of free time. They hated how so many bands had stopped speaking to them, had become rich, or were making pompous music that had strayed from what rock was all about. So they formed their own bands.
 
I agree with you on the sound of Californication, but that's beside the point. The early UK punk bands did set up their own rules, which they promptly broke, i.e. the Clash's second album, which was produced to sound like a late 70's heavy metal album. But they did want albums that they could be proud of, and when they accomplished that goal, which they often did, then they did create flawless records; one just has to enjoy that type of sound.
 
To me, what was really thrilling was all the great post-punk and punk influenced albums that came out after 1977, punk rock broke the barriers for bands that didn't have a lot of money or connections, or guitar players that couldn’t do twenty minute solos. Yet they were talented in many respects.
 
Don't misunderstand the point that I'm getting at, to this day I certainly like my Pink Floyd, and saw ELP, Yes, and countless other big name bands back in the day. But when I picked up that Sex Pistols album back in 1977, wow, it was an awakening, and if that can be said about an album, then I believe one can call it flawless.
 
If one can accept the definition of flawless as: Without error; perfect. Then I would counter that a lot of prog rock was very imperfect, although having perfect musicianship, it was excessive in many respects, from overblown guitar playing to pretentious lyrics and often pretentious music itself (group YES is an obvious example). Punk rock, again in the beginning, strived to get back to the soul of Rock and Roll and open the doors to anyone who thought they could do a better job at making music than the rich bloated generation that had been at the top of the rock charts through the 70's.
 
By opening those doors, the Punk movement made it possible for bands like Red Hot Chili Peppers (who started as part of the California punk scene), U2, REM, NIN, Talking Heads, Devo, Blondie, Nirvana and countless other bands to eventually get their start and go on to record some of the great music we enjoy today.
 
 
Jun 20, 2011 at 10:25 AM Post #264 of 941

 
Quote:
I'm going to disagree. Perfection was an aspiration of the albums that Punk derided and attacked; prog rock was aiming at perfection, Punk was aiming at imperfection. It seems like a complete disbasement of this thread that now we can say that an album is perfect "by its own definitions". For example, one of the cherished ideas of punk was that musicianship not be an obstacle to self-expression, so now we have to say that NMTB is "flawless" because it isn't performed very competently. Just because you like an album, doesn't mean you have to find a contrived way to attach the words "perfect" or "flawless" to
 
"By its own definitions", Californication had the best mastering ever, but no one is going to put it up for a thread on perfect mastering ... at least, not sincerely, on these forums.


I hear you, but I tend to think that there's process and then there's art. Just because the punks were proving that there is more to great art (read: music) than mere facility doesn't mean that what they created can't ever be viewed as fully-realized artistic statements. I wouldn't consider any of the brilliant records mentioned thus far to be conceptually half-assed. Simply put, those cats did awesome things with their limitations, in some respects influencing folks who were "better" musicians. I'd hope the conceptual standard is the one we're using to evaluate them.
 
 
Jun 20, 2011 at 10:29 AM Post #265 of 941


Quote:
 

Kinda interesting that everyone's rushing in to say Never Mind The Bollocks preceded The Clash when actually the Clash album was released in the spring of '77 while Never Mind The Bollocks came out in the fall. But that wasn't my point anyway. If we're talking about six months to a year or so, the point is that everyone was getting their sh-t together and recording more or less contiguously, so crediting the Pistols' album with birthing the "punk movement" is a bit overstated. It's true that they were popularizers, though, giving punk its most public face in the mainstream at the time. As for their style and attitude, well…more than one historian has attributed some of it to things their manager, Malcolm McLaren, picked up from folks in Noo Yawk, the Dolls in particular. I think the bottom line (at least, for this thread) may be that the early punks produced a surprising number of high-quality records.


You are correct in the influance of Noo Yawk,  well stated.
 
I must be thinking of the singles, you are right, the Clash album did come out first.  That one is ranked number 77 on Rolling Stone magazine's list of the 500 greatest albums of all time.
The Clash formed after the Sex Pistols. 
 
By the way, speaking of Never mind the Bollocks, Rolling Stone rated it #41 on their list of the 500 Greatest Albums of All Time.
 
 
Two flawless albums and highly enjoyable each.  
 
 
 
Jun 20, 2011 at 11:18 AM Post #266 of 941


Quote:
 

I hear you, but I tend to think that there's process and then there's art. Just because the punks were proving that there is more to great art (read: music) than mere facility doesn't mean that what they created can't ever be viewed as fully-realized artistic statements. I wouldn't consider any of the brilliant records mentioned thus far to be conceptually half-assed. Simply put, those cats did awesome things with their limitations, in some respects influencing folks who were "better" musicians. I'd hope the conceptual standard is the one we're using to evaluate them.
 

 
I'm willing to accept NMTB as a "fully-realized artistic statement", but not as flawless. I think that the reason is this: if you have a low standard and hit it, your album becomes flawless, and if you have a high standard but don't hit it, your album becomes flawed. For example, Metal Machine Music becomes perfect with this approach, whereas The White Album is flawed because it definitely has filler. (We just have to agree on what the filler is!) If flawless is a term that attaches itself to a lot of music that I wouldn't even count as minimally good, then our definition would seem to be <cough> flawed.
 
This actually says quite a lot about this thread, because a lot of albums got into it where I thought "well, I wouldn't have said that was flawless, but I guess the poster just likes that genre or band". If your only definition for flawless is "I like every track" then anything goes. The reason that I say "so far and no further" with Punk is because while the artists may have aimed to be good, or may have done their best on their albums, they wanted the flaws; warts 'n' all. I don't believe the Sex Pistols ever said "let's do another take so I can nail the bridge".
 
You may think that you are recognising the enduring contribution of Punk to modern music by calling it flawless, but I'd say that you are just failing to "get" it.
 
 
Jun 20, 2011 at 11:42 AM Post #267 of 941

 
Quote:
You may think that you are recognising the enduring contribution of Punk to modern music by calling it flawless, but I'd say that you are just failing to "get" it.


Well, I think the genre is less important than the actual albums selected…at least for me it is. Maybe that didn't come across. My digression was more about overstating the Pistols' disc's significance.
 
 
Jun 20, 2011 at 11:52 AM Post #268 of 941
Music is art, not science. If something sounds brilliant, played well, and has lasting value, then it can be considered flawless.
Many times in art, less is better than more; and overdoing it will add to flaws in the composition. It will no longer sound good, yet ever instrument is played perfectly. 
Flawless music is not virtuoso playing. 
 
 
 
Quote:
This actually says quite a lot about this thread, because a lot of albums got into it where I thought "well, I wouldn't have said that was flawless, but I guess the poster just likes that genre or band". 

 
Actually music that one likes is certainly defined by one's taste and within certain genres there are flawless records that abide by the rules of the genre as per the understanding of the listener.
Case in point, Rap. I am sure that there are flawless records in rap, perhaps Fear of the Black Planet is one.. but I would not know as I do not follow that genre and do not like most of that music. 
However, those people that make it a point of listening to everything and understanding the musical conventions often have an idea of what they consider a perfect record. Even though I may disagree with them, music critics and writers can serve as a useful guide to records that one should at least hear. 
 
Which is why I read Pitchfork, follow Rolling Stone to a degree, and used to read New Musical Express on a weekly basis. Not that I agreed with everything, far from it, but it turned me on to some wonderful music that never hit FM radio in the states or may have been a bit harder to find.  
 
Jun 20, 2011 at 12:20 PM Post #269 of 941


Quote:
Music is art, not science. If something sounds brilliant, played well, and has lasting value, then it can be considered flawless.
Many times in art, less is better than more; and overdoing it will add to flaws in the composition. It will no longer sound good, yet every instrument is played perfectly. 
Flawless music is not virtuoso playing.


True ... in fact there is a lot of virtuoso playing that is full of flaws! Setting aside Punk for a moment, though, I actually take issue with Jazz records being in this list. I like Jazz myself (not so keen on Punk) but I don't really see that a recording of (even) a wonderful concert such as Keith Jarrett's The Koln Concert should be on a list of flawless albums. Again, it moves the goalposts too far: we'd end up with a thousand flawless Jazz albums and maybe twenty from Rock. Jazz, like Punk, aims for spontaneity, not perfection.
 
I actually think flawlessness was a pretty ambitious target to hit for any work of art ... but you are weakening it to the point at which it isn't even an interesting attribute any more. "Sounds brilliant, played well and has lasting value" ... that's just about every album by about a hundred artists I could name straight off from my iTunes library.
 
 
Jun 20, 2011 at 1:37 PM Post #270 of 941


Quote:
Punk rock, at least in its initial form, wasn't going after perfection; it was going against the status quo. Prog rock took a hit because it was perceived as being pompous, boring, and had nothing to say. Many bands did strive on amateurism, but those bands are mostly forgotten. As for the early punk bands, often the members were musicians that had been around for a while playing in pub rock bands. The Clash is one example, they were all excellent musicians, and they lived through the punk movement to popular acceptance.
 
England's punk scene had political and economic roots. The economy in the United Kingdom was in poor shape, and unemployment rates were at an all-time high. England's youth were angry, rebellious and out of work. They had strong opinions and a lot of free time. They hated how so many bands had stopped speaking to them, had become rich, or were making pompous music that had strayed from what rock was all about. So they formed their own bands.
 
I agree with you on the sound of Californication, but that's beside the point. The early UK punk bands did set up their own rules, which they promptly broke, i.e. the Clash's second album, which was produced to sound like a late 70's heavy metal album. But they did want albums that they could be proud of, and when they accomplished that goal, which they often did, then they did create flawless records; one just has to enjoy that type of sound.
 
To me, what was really thrilling was all the great post-punk and punk influenced albums that came out after 1977, punk rock broke the barriers for bands that didn't have a lot of money or connections, or guitar players that couldn’t do twenty minute solos. Yet they were talented in many respects.
 
Don't misunderstand the point that I'm getting at, to this day I certainly like my Pink Floyd, and saw ELP, Yes, and countless other big name bands back in the day. But when I picked up that Sex Pistols album back in 1977, wow, it was an awakening, and if that can be said about an album, then I believe one can call it flawless.
 
If one can accept the definition of flawless as: Without error; perfect. Then I would counter that a lot of prog rock was very imperfect, although having perfect musicianship, it was excessive in many respects, from overblown guitar playing to pretentious lyrics and often pretentious music itself (group YES is an obvious example). Punk rock, again in the beginning, strived to get back to the soul of Rock and Roll and open the doors to anyone who thought they could do a better job at making music than the rich bloated generation that had been at the top of the rock charts through the 70's.
 
By opening those doors, the Punk movement made it possible for bands like Red Hot Chili Peppers (who started as part of the California punk scene), U2, REM, NIN, Talking Heads, Devo, Blondie, Nirvana and countless other bands to eventually get their start and go on to record some of the great music we enjoy today.
 



Couldn't have put it any better. 
 
I would also add that I think history has to have a say in what turns out to be flawless aswell, and 100 yrs from now I bet that NMTB will be remembered as much as an album like "St Peppers, neither are flawless musically, but for what they achieved in shaking up popular music both in art and culture is flawless in my book. 
 
 
 

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