Flagship or BS?
Apr 25, 2023 at 12:01 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 10

earmonger

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OK, maybe I'm trolling a little bit here but...

When I see "flagship" I tend to flinch. There are just not enough quarters stuck in my sofa cushions to afford a four-figure gadget.

And I have the feeling Moore's Law also applies to audio components. Everything just keeps getting cheaper to manufacture. I realize that drivers are intricate and magical technology, but hardly anyone is paying American or European union wages. China is building everything for pennies, and I can hardly imagine how those workers scrape by.

But I see these kilobuck offerings with the oh-wow reviews. And then I see the emperor's-new-clothes debunkings a few months later.

I understand the law of diminishing returns. I don't want to support the deforestation of exotic woods! And really. Is that kilobuck DAP better -- measurably, qualitatively, in what I am going to hear? -- than my disintegrating rubbery $69 Sansa Fuze? If not, is it all marketing and hype? Are we being played for $$$?

I wouldn't be surprised.
 
Apr 25, 2023 at 8:23 AM Post #3 of 10
@earmonger I’ve touched on your point recently in some initial impressions I had about the now-$300 Focal Elegia. Granted, I don’t know whether these officially counted as “flagship” or even “closed-back flagship” when they were first released, but from my very subjective perspective, I consider them at least as former flagship because of the initial price and Focal’s marketing. You don’t see the likes of Anker or Beats going all-in with the Ooh-La-La marketing angle after all.

On the one hand, like you said, mass manufacturing can be and is done cheaply. On the other hand, research and development do take man-hours, and that too specialized man-hours. The average joe isn’t capable of scrounging materials and making quality equipment of any kind in their garage. Those man-hours need to bear fruit in the end.

And for what it’s worth, Focal headphones are made in France, Sennheiser HD800 and above are made in Germany, and DCA headphones are made in USA. So I think it’s safe to say that higher end gear tend to (still?) be made in places where labor regulations are (still?) on the strong side.

I understand the law of diminishing returns. I don't want to support the deforestation of exotic woods! And really. Is that kilobuck DAP better -- measurably, qualitatively, in what I am going to hear? -- than my disintegrating rubbery $69 Sansa Fuze? If not, is it all marketing and hype? Are we being played for $$$?

I wouldn't be surprised.
Which leads very nicely to my next point: I personally came to realize that high-end gear is mostly wasted on me. I’m glad I came to this realization $300 poorer (courtesy of the aforementioned Focals) rather than $800 poorer. There are audio enthusiasts who claim they can tell minute differences apart. I’m not going to question their judgment; maybe they really can, or maybe it’s self-validation for spending $1000+. I’m not going to project my capabilities on them.

One thing I saw mentioned online: things can be expensive for no discernible reason. But cheap things ARE cheap for A reason or two or three.

I want to add another question. Does a $200 IEM+ $150 bt dac-amp combo sound better than a $200 TWS?
Too many factors to clearly say yes or no. My take: if you’re listening in a bus or on the streets, then no. The external noise interferes way too much, not to mention the fact that you need to stay focused in getting to your destination.

If you’re someplace quiet with little interference, then it gets complicated. For one, with EQ becoming more popular as of late, what “sounds good” is now more subjective than ever. This is a point in favor for DACs like the Qudelix, as some DACs provide hardware-level EQing that you can apply to any gear. But if you aren’t a fan of EQ, then it’s moot.

I personally am not a fan of EQ. It isn’t because I think EQ is inherently inferior or that I have some definition of a “pure sound.” It is because EQ is applied on EVERYTHING that I hear. This was the case in the older days before MP3s became the norm, and this is the case today. I find that some songs sound better with EQ to my ears…but I also find that other songs sound worse with the same EQ settings. As a result, the greater displeasures cancel out the greater pleasures overall. It is possible in some software to apply EQ presets on a song or album level, but then that carries over to different headphones I own.

For two, while I have no firsthand experience, there is a LOT of chatter about the quality of audio from the sub-$100 category of Chinese wired IEMs (Letshouer, Moondrop, Tangzu, etc). Assuming that’s true, then a wired IEM+DAC gum stick combination would be more pleasant to the ears.

Edit: this doesn’t answer your question directly and may be a tangent at best. There is one situation in which TWS would be the inferior choice: the battery life. Batteries degrade because of physics, and eventually portable devices lose their portability. With most TWS, you’ll have to throw them away in a few years. But the majority of Bluetooth DACs released these days also pull double duty as a wired USB DAC. I’m quite confident that barring any unintended accidents like theft, loss or personally induced destruction, I will be using my Qudelix long after the battery dies permanently by connecting them to my computer.
 
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Apr 26, 2023 at 4:54 PM Post #4 of 10
When I see "flagship" I tend to flinch. There are just not enough quarters stuck in my sofa cushions to afford a four-figure gadget.
Bit like Manufacturers using the word PRO, Pro people don't use PRO DAPS or even DAPs, they probably just their phones like most people. Marketing is silly, Getting people to pay a premium for the word PRO :upside_down: .
 
Apr 26, 2023 at 5:34 PM Post #5 of 10
OK, maybe I'm trolling a little bit here but...

When I see "flagship" I tend to flinch. There are just not enough quarters stuck in my sofa cushions to afford a four-figure gadget.

And I have the feeling Moore's Law also applies to audio components. Everything just keeps getting cheaper to manufacture. I realize that drivers are intricate and magical technology, but hardly anyone is paying American or European union wages. China is building everything for pennies, and I can hardly imagine how those workers scrape by.

But I see these kilobuck offerings with the oh-wow reviews. And then I see the emperor's-new-clothes debunkings a few months later.

I understand the law of diminishing returns. I don't want to support the deforestation of exotic woods! And really. Is that kilobuck DAP better -- measurably, qualitatively, in what I am going to hear? -- than my disintegrating rubbery $69 Sansa Fuze? If not, is it all marketing and hype? Are we being played for $$$?

I wouldn't be surprised.
Audio / Video World Has More BS Than All Other Industries & Hobbies !!!
 
Apr 26, 2023 at 10:51 PM Post #6 of 10
OK, maybe I'm trolling a little bit here but...

When I see "flagship" I tend to flinch. There are just not enough quarters stuck in my sofa cushions to afford a four-figure gadget.

And I have the feeling Moore's Law also applies to audio components. Everything just keeps getting cheaper to manufacture. I realize that drivers are intricate and magical technology, but hardly anyone is paying American or European union wages. China is building everything for pennies, and I can hardly imagine how those workers scrape by.

But I see these kilobuck offerings with the oh-wow reviews. And then I see the emperor's-new-clothes debunkings a few months later.

I understand the law of diminishing returns. I don't want to support the deforestation of exotic woods! And really. Is that kilobuck DAP better -- measurably, qualitatively, in what I am going to hear? -- than my disintegrating rubbery $69 Sansa Fuze? If not, is it all marketing and hype? Are we being played for $$$?

I wouldn't be surprised.


There's an interesting study here from The Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, showing that frequency response doesn't correlate to retail price: https://asa.scitation.org/doi/full/10.1121/1.4984044

I think this study incorporates 283 transducers, from budget pairs to TOTL $5K gear.



My 2 cents:
- In recent years, CHIFI has caught up with the budget/midFI range of the western/boutique brands for IEMs, and the former now routinely give better price to performance ratio. TOTL land is still mostly ruled by western or Japanese brands, but you have some CHIFI like DUNU and QDC that have legit TOTL models for IEMs, eg DUNU LUNA, QDC Anole VX.

- CHIFI probably are cheaper, as they have economies of scale and cheaper materials/labour. They sometimes do not focus much on licensing/patents, and perhaps QC/customer service is not the best too. Western brands possibly spend more on marketing and salaries and licensing. They probably have greater R&D expenditure too. But actually I realize quite a few western/boutique stuff is made in China, or have Chinese parts/assembly.

- There was a recent lawsuit between Knowles and Bellsing, with the former alleging that the latter (a Chinese brand) copied them:
https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/cxqlje/knowles_files_claim_with_us_trade_commission_to/
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210630005906/en/U.S.-International-Trade-Commission-Judge-Rules-in-Favor-of-Knowles-in-Trade-Secret-Theft-Case-Against-Bellsing#:~:text=In a 129-page decision,balanced armature (BA) devices.

So maybe there is some reverse engineering or property/intellectual rights shenanigans going on. But interestingly, from this article, it was revealed that some TOTL brands (eg Campfire, J&H, CTM) used cheaper Bellsings, instead of the so-called branded Knowles drivers. Imagine the profit margin!!

- Anyway, just 5 years back, you would have to cough up about $100 USD for a single driver IEM, and around $300 for a multi driver set. Nowadays, with the rise of CHIFI, $20 can get u decent sound, and there are a lot of $100 - 300 CHIFI that have competitive sonics. No need to sell a kidney to get audio nirvana nowadays, if you are willing to try CHIFI products. Now the barrier to entering this hobby is much lower than previously, which is a good thing for consumers!

- At the end of the day, it is a willing buyer willing seller kind of thing. In recent times, some boutique brands collapsed eg Audiofly, RHA. Even Sennheiser had to sell away its consumer wing. So I think consumers will buy what they think is of value to them, and some companies will end up in administration if they do not innovate or price their products too exorbitantly.
 
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Apr 27, 2023 at 1:20 AM Post #7 of 10
A lot of chifi still seems a bit shoddy to me, and the quality control issues can be more pronounced than elsewhere. I've had some frustrating experiences.
I 95% trust most Chinese DAP's though. They love their DAP's and it shows, unless you start fishing around in the bottom of the barrel.

Picked up the HarmonicDyne Athena today. Good price, and it sounds mmmmm great :ok_hand:
 
Apr 28, 2023 at 8:39 AM Post #8 of 10
There will always be people with the financial means to purchase "flagships," and do it in many cases because it simply says, "flagship." Are there differences and can you notice them? It depends on the specific product (#1!), then on your experience and your experience with better equipment. I've been in this a long time and can easily tell the difference between what one might call, "world-class" and not. Are there penultimate options to flagships? Absolutely. Could I tell the difference between them when I first got into this? Absolutely not.

It's true that snake oil and BS abounds in audio. Generally speaking, though, a flagship does represent that company's best work. If nothing else, they themselves have chosen to present it that way and to represent their company. Like everything else, you have to decide on your own whether purchasing it is worth it to you.
 
Apr 30, 2023 at 11:25 PM Post #9 of 10
"flagship" term is the biggest scam in the world of marketing, regardless category. Be it audio or smartphones.
 
Apr 30, 2023 at 11:53 PM Post #10 of 10
"flagship" term is the biggest scam in the world of marketing, regardless category. Be it audio or smartphones.
To be fair, it really didn’t used to be so. I remember in the 2010s, flagship smartphones were genuinely a cut above the rest, packing features cheaper models didn’t have.

I think the thing now is that the tech has matured to the point where it’s generally easy to get by with entry-level or midrange gear, because today’s cheap stuff has the equivalent of flagship tech from some number of years ago.
 

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