FLAC is brighter than WAV
Jun 13, 2007 at 4:44 PM Post #211 of 284
Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Why wouldn't it? All components generate EMI which interfere with the other components. I changed my 1GB RAM into 512MB and it sounded worse (should have sounded better), then I found the reason, my 1GB module has a metal casing around it which keeps some of the EMI inside it. Shielding the RAM should give bigger differences because the direction of the EMI is facing the mainboard. .......<<snip>>
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OK, so can you attempt to explain why it's only the reflected EMI and not the direct EMI that causes these putative problems? (Note that I wrote "attempt", because your premise is, sorry to say, ludicrous.)

All electromagnetic radiation follows the inverse square relationship. If the direct route between components is, let's say, 1/5 the distance to a completely reflective surface, the reflected interference would travel 10 times as far as the direct interference, and thus be only 1/100 the strength of the direct radiation.

How do you know the precise direction at which a device projects its EMI?
 
Jun 13, 2007 at 6:35 PM Post #212 of 284
I agree that the problem is almost certainly noise. Way back when, I could tell which way my floppy drive was seeking based on the direction (dexter/sinister) of the diagonal noise bands on my TV, 10 feet away. Things are quieter now, but noise is not gone. More CPU activity will cause more transistor switching and a non-zero noise increase. The motor and voice coil in the additional drive generate noise, too. And noise on the power rails will certainly affect the linearity of the DAC. Jitter shouldn't be an issue due to (as mentioned before) data buffering. However it is not impossible that noise could affect the clocking of the data samples into the DAC. It's also (barely) possible that extry heat could be affecting things. But the delta T is so small. But I just replaced the fan on my graphics card. It lowered the temp ~10-20 C. And now there's no more texture shimmering. However, this is orders of magnitude more heat. Most of these things are very to extremely low level. But audio is an odd beast. As are head-fiers
wink.gif


In the box noise is used as a selling point for external sound devices, but we all know how advertising works.
mad.gif


Two fairly conclusive experiments suggest themselves to me:

1) Use an external USB DAC. I have a cheap Turtle Beach Audio Advantage that I would be willing to loan out (if I can find it) since I'm very curious about what's happening. I don't know if its SQ will be good enough to show any differences.

2) The *real* test would be sending WAV and FLAC to a high end DAC & HP amp system using the card's digital out (if present) or bypassing the card entirely using a USB DAC or USB -> S/PDIF -> DAC. The TB AA does USB -> S/PDIF optical conversion. I don't know if it's bit perfect, tho. What are some some songs you listen to that really show the differences? I'm curious to see if I can hear anything.

A quick thing to try would be to see if your mvsik player can convert FLAC to WAV and write it back to a file. Then do a comparison. You could be experiencing an encode or decode bug.

Sorry if this has already been suggested, but 11 pages of posts is a bit much to wade thru.
blink.gif


-=A=-
(the long winded)
 
Jun 13, 2007 at 6:45 PM Post #213 of 284
Quote:

Originally Posted by SR-71Panorama /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Go get a turntable and some steve hoffman records.


Yeah Patrick I have been wondering that to, Why don't you use vinyl wich should be better than everything less than SACD and DVD audio? Veteran HiFi has some nice turntables
tongue.gif
 
Jun 13, 2007 at 8:18 PM Post #214 of 284
Quote:

Originally Posted by Amarok /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I agree that the problem is almost certainly noise. Way back when, I could tell which way my floppy drive was seeking based on the direction (dexter/sinister) of the diagonal noise bands on my TV, 10 feet away. Things are quieter now, but noise is not gone. More CPU activity will cause more transistor switching and a non-zero noise increase. The motor and voice coil in the additional drive generate noise, too. And noise on the power rails will certainly affect the linearity of the DAC. Jitter shouldn't be an issue due to (as mentioned before) data buffering. However it is not impossible that noise could affect the clocking of the data samples into the DAC. It's also (barely) possible that extry heat could be affecting things. But the delta T is so small. But I just replaced the fan on my graphics card. It lowered the temp ~10-20 C. And now there's no more texture shimmering. However, this is orders of magnitude more heat. Most of these things are very to extremely low level. But audio is an odd beast. As are head-fiers
wink.gif


In the box noise is used as a selling point for external sound devices, but we all know how advertising works.
mad.gif


Two fairly conclusive experiments suggest themselves to me:

1) Use an external USB DAC. I have a cheap Turtle Beach Audio Advantage that I would be willing to loan out (if I can find it) since I'm very curious about what's happening. I don't know if its SQ will be good enough to show any differences.

2) The *real* test would be sending WAV and FLAC to a high end DAC & HP amp system using the card's digital out (if present) or bypassing the card entirely using a USB DAC or USB -> S/PDIF -> DAC. The TB AA does USB -> S/PDIF optical conversion. I don't know if it's bit perfect, tho. What are some some songs you listen to that really show the differences? I'm curious to see if I can hear anything.

A quick thing to try would be to see if your mvsik player can convert FLAC to WAV and write it back to a file. Then do a comparison. You could be experiencing an encode or decode bug.

Sorry if this has already been suggested, but 11 pages of posts is a bit much to wade thru.
blink.gif


-=A=-
(the long winded)


Had you read the thread you would learn that Patrick is making these claims while already using an external DAC, a very good one at that.
 
Jun 13, 2007 at 8:20 PM Post #215 of 284
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurra1980 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Yeah Patrick I have been wondering that to, Why don't you use vinyl wich should be better than everything less than SACD and DVD audio? Veteran HiFi has some nice turntables
tongue.gif



Check out post # 27 on page 2.
 
Jun 14, 2007 at 5:10 AM Post #216 of 284
patrick try using foobar 0.8.3 i recently returned to this version from 0.9.3 and version 8 sound a LOT more natural without any harshness etc. but this was for analogue out, not too sure about digital. give it a try.
 
Jun 14, 2007 at 7:36 AM Post #217 of 284
Quote:

Originally Posted by clc220 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
patrick try using foobar 0.8.3 i recently returned to this version from 0.9.3 and version 8 sound a LOT more natural without any harshness etc. but this was for analogue out, not too sure about digital. give it a try.


I'm skeptic, how can the versions sound any different? Both have Kernel Streaming?
 
Jun 14, 2007 at 9:46 AM Post #218 of 284
Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'm skeptic, how can the versions sound any different? Both have Kernel Streaming?


LOL. Best post of this thread ever.
biggrin.gif

(not taking sides though)
 
Jun 14, 2007 at 10:50 AM Post #220 of 284
Quote:

Originally Posted by Amarok /img/forum/go_quote.gif
But I just replaced the fan on my graphics card. It lowered the temp ~10-20 C. And now there's no more texture shimmering.


Are you serious? Heat will not produce just simple texture shimmering but visible errors.
 
Jun 14, 2007 at 11:16 AM Post #221 of 284
Quote:

Originally Posted by maarek99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Are you serious? Heat will not produce just simple texture shimmering but visible errors.


Texture shimmering IS errors in the rendering(in some cases, some cases just driver flaws). But either way, heat depends on the component.

Some components can easily run 90C, while others start to error at 60C. But in the end, heat does not necessarily mean errors, and lower heat doesn't mean less errors, unless the component was already erroring from heat.

The analog world is different though, as heat changes the electrical properties of things like capacitors and the such, and heat will degrade their performance right away.

Which is why I believe Patrick's "paper" mods would have a more profound negative affect, rather than positive. Since the components can no longer be properly ventilated, and the increase in the temperature of the components would probably more than eliminate any improvement seen by him blocking the alien mind waves from getting to his equipment.

I think you are thinking of shearing, or blank/stretched/distorted textures, that is caused by error by the graphic memory. Popping pixels, shimmers, hard video locks is caused by errors by the GPU.
 
Jun 14, 2007 at 6:30 PM Post #223 of 284
Quote:

Originally Posted by maarek99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Are you serious? Heat will not produce just simple texture shimmering but visible errors.


I must've been on the very low end of the range considered to be "overheating." But shimmering was all I saw. I even emailed a friend at ATi telling him to jump on the people responsible. Time to apologize for that. But now I can complain about their, ummm..., "less than ideal" stock cooler
very_evil_smiley.gif
It was letting me get over 110C... a bit toasty. But since they weren't keeping fan speed pegged at 100% (it oscillated betwixt ~36... 100%) they must've considered this temp "OK."

I need to go back an read this thread in its entirety. It could be a troll/chain-yanking, but they can be fun if they're clever enough.

But, ya know, FLAC really *is* brighter than WAV because it uses a sophisticated compression algorithm, whilst WAV just dimly stores all the samples as is(are?)
wink.gif


-=A=-
 
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