FLAC? DAC? And are laptops are a good audio source?
Mar 13, 2013 at 1:12 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 13

keramatzmode

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Hello there, I'm pretty new in the audiophille stuff (new to the forums too) and I want to venture into this new hobby.

First of all, my Grado SR60i will be arriving soon because I wanted to try a good headphone because I'm tired listening music using 10$ headphones. So here's my question.
Are laptops are a good source to play music? Will using a better headphone change/show difference the quality of the music or it will stay the same? Do I need to buy a better audio system to unleash the potential of my SR60i?

And FLAC, are they worth it to download than the MP3s? I have some CD albums too but there's also some mp3s I downloaded for those music I can't purchase from stores. This will lead me to redownload all of them in FLAC, so will it worth the hassle?

And thirdly, DACs. Can someone explain to me simply what are they and are they worth it for audio quality? 

Extra: I read some reviews about them getting huge praise and I managed to grab SR60i at 50$, anyone want to share any experience with them?

Thank you for any replies
dt880smile.png

 
Mar 13, 2013 at 1:35 PM Post #2 of 13
Hello there, I'm pretty new in the audiophille stuff (new to the forums too) and I want to venture into this new hobby.


Howdy and welcome.

First of all, my Grado SR60i will be arriving soon because I wanted to try a good headphone because I'm tired listening music using 10$ headphones. So here's my question.


Good choice on headphones. :gs1000smile:

Are laptops are a good source to play music? Will using a better headphone change/show difference the quality of the music or it will stay the same? Do I need to buy a better audio system to unleash the potential of my SR60i?


Highly variable. Computer audio can be very good, but it can also be very bad. Basically I'd suggest worrying about the following things:

1) Quality of encoded/ripped media. Basically you want stuff that was ripped right, and that isn't overly compressed. Generally that's 320k mp3/WMA or better, but depending on the content, 192k can still be perfectly suitable.

2) Quality of the computer's output equipment. Basically you want a "clean" output to your headphones (or the amp driving your headphones) - if there's buzz/hum/noise coming from the computer, that you can hear, it has the tendency to get annoying after a while.

Regarding if you'll notice the difference with the SR-60 and nothing else, I would say yes - you absolutely should! Grado headphones tend to be very easily driven as well, so assuming your computer's output is clean, it will probably drive them. The biggest/most important factor in an audio system is the output device (headphones, speakers, etc) - so that's a good place to start. Everything else between the music and that device is basically there to make sure the headphone/speaker is driven properly, and that the music is handled properly.

And FLAC, are they worth it to download than the MP3s? I have some CD albums too but there's also some mp3s I downloaded for those music I can't purchase from stores. This will lead me to redownload all of them in FLAC, so will it worth the hassle?


It really depends. If you've got good 256k or 320k rips, you probably wouldn't notice much of a difference getting FLAC (or other lossless) files. In the future, I'd suggest lossless when available - just for piece of mind more than anything else (and having a lossless copy of the data is always "best" - you can always compress it down for mobile devices or similar at a later point, but you can never un-compress a lossy file).

If you've got CDs, you might re-rip a few to see if it's a big deal for you.

If you're starting with a bunch of horrible 64-128k mp3s though, you may want to re-think that. Of course if there's no other way to get the music, there's no other way to get the music, but by and large less compression is a good thing.

And thirdly, DACs. Can someone explain to me simply what are they and are they worth it for audio quality? 


Long answer or short answer?

Short answer is DAC stands for Digital to Analog Converter, and generally in audio circles it means a standalone device that performs that function. Your computer will actually have a DAC in it already (so will your cellphone, your mp3 player, etc) in order to produce an audio output, but a lot of folks want a more premium solution. In some cases I will say it makes sense to buy, in others not so much. Basically if you already have a clean output, I wouldn't dump a ton of money into it.

You may also see the phrase "USB DAC" appear - which is somewhat of a misnomer. So-called USB DACs are what was known a few years ago as "USB Soundcards" - basically it's an audio interface (some have headphone amps built in, some have audio inputs, some are just stereo audio outputs, etc) that connects via USB, as opposed to some other interface (like PCI). They're popular because they can be hooked up to laptops or desktops, and in recent years a lot of marketing has been put out as to why everyone "needs" one. If your computer's built-in audio hardware is kind of dumpy, a USB solution wouldn't be a bad choice, but I'd honestly steer you away from spending thousands (or millions :rolleyes:) of dollars on DtoA converters or other fancy electronics like that - clean is clean.

Maybe this article will explain a bit more:
http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=KB_Columns&document_srl=1921


Extra: I read some reviews about them getting huge praise and I managed to grab SR60i at 50$, anyone want to share any experience with them?


I'd agree that the SR-60 are a fantastic headphone. I think that by and large they're a good choice as a first headphone, and unless you're expecting a bass-blaster, they'll probably put a smile on your face. That said, you'll likely find relatively mixed opinions of Grado headphones, as they tend to be some polarizing (primarily along the lines of looks, fit, and their relatively unique sound signature).
 
Mar 13, 2013 at 1:47 PM Post #3 of 13
Laptops can be alright sometimes, depends on the laptop really. They aren't all built the same after all.
 
A DAC is a digital to analog converter. Every device that plays audio from a digital source, including your laptop, has one built in. A lot of times people buy external DACs to improve the quality of their devices. I personally don't think they're worth spending too much money on, as this is a pretty well mastered technology that a lot of cheap devices do very well. And keep in mind that if you buy an external DAC, you will need an amp as well since they are not amplified.
 
As far as FLAC/CD vs MP3's, if your MP3's are 256kbps+ it's not likely worth the hassle, but  it's best to decide for yourself. There's a plugin for the media player foobar called ABX comparator that you can do a blind test with different file types to see the difference.
 
Here are some sample files you can use: lossless- http://www.mediafire.com/?rk2d4s0edb235dc 320kbps LAME mp3- http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?opc9md3239h4amt 128kbps LAME mp3 -http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?g25byxzbtn8rat6 . The top link in my signature has more as well.
 
Mar 13, 2013 at 1:54 PM Post #4 of 13
Thank you for the replies! I think most of my MP3s are 326kbps. And btw, you stated that "The biggest/most important factor in an audio system is the output device (headphones, speakers, etc)" So I'm doing the right thing buying the output device first before worrying about the audio system?
 
Mar 13, 2013 at 2:07 PM Post #5 of 13
Thank you for the replies! I think most of my MP3s are 326kbps. And btw, you stated that "The biggest/most important factor in an audio system is the output device (headphones, speakers, etc)"
 So I'm doing the right thing buying the output device first before worrying about the audio system?


Aye.

And I think with 320k or better mp3, you should be fine. :) It's always kind of touchy with compressed files though, because some people will say "yeah I have a lot of mp3s" and then you find out their 96kbps rips, and it's just abysmal. But other folks have a lot of nice 256k or 320k stuff that was either done a million years ago (when space was more expensive), or is from various digital download stores (like Amazon), and it's by and large just dandy.
 
Mar 13, 2013 at 2:12 PM Post #6 of 13
Wow, I downloaded the FLAC and MP3. And I REALLY can listen the differences. The instruments sounds alive. The stringed instrument have that buzzing crystal clear.

I guess I should start considering FLAC from now on. Thank you.
 
Mar 13, 2013 at 3:57 PM Post #7 of 13
Are laptops are a good source to play music?
-Yes and no.  Performance as a music source varies greatly from each manufacturer.
 
Will using a better headphone change/show difference the quality of the music or it will stay the same?
-Depends on the individual.  This is as much a question about listening perception, as anything technical.  There are probably 1000s of HF members who walk away from this forum with an SR60 and a smile on their face.  Source and amp upgrades most definitely WILL make your SR60 sound different, whether or not you will be happy with that is the question.
 
Do I need to buy a better audio system to unleash the potential of my SR60i?
-Depends on your preferences and hearing perception.
 
And FLAC, are they worth it to download than the MP3s? I have some CD albums too but there's also some mp3s I downloaded for those music I can't purchase from stores. This will lead me to redownload all of them in FLAC, so will it worth the hassle?
-Not sure about FLAC.  Apple lossless has been worth the effort and investment.  For me file size is really the biggest issue.  I keep my library on a few external drives.  One drive is setup for 128K MP3... good enough for the Sansa clip and iPod shuffle, where space is more a concern than anything else.
 
And thirdly, DACs. Can someone explain to me simply what are they and are they worth it for audio quality?
-An outboard DAC taps into the digital bit-stream and converts the digital-stream to an analog AC wave form.  Basically it replaces the built in sound card.  IMHO an external DAC is almost a must have.  I was a 12 year thinkpad-Lenovo-Toshiba user.  Built in sound cards in all of them ranged from bad to worse.  They all sounded very flat, dull, one dimensional, all kinds of digital clicks, blips, burps, motor/flutter sounds with my Grados... YUK!!  I've been on a Macbook Pro for the past 18 months and it has a surprisingly good sounding headphone out for all my low-Z cans.  One of my fave setups is the HF1 plugged straight into the macbook.  I also run my 16 ohm IEMs off a speaker impedance transformer, powered straight out of the macbook.  If I had to pick one laptop to go amp/DAC-less it'd be the apple MP(and I am not an apple fan in any way... just speaking out objectively).  Nice thing about the macbook is it has an optical output as well as Firewire... so there are more DAC options than most others.
 
Extra: I read some reviews about them getting huge praise and I managed to grab SR60i at 50$, anyone want to share any experience with them?
-Good cans, good value, great starting point.  I still have one at work, I just leave it there for office tunes and conference calls on the IP phone.  You could spend a lot more and get a lot worse.
 
Thank you for any replies
-Sure np, welcome to headfi and sorry about your wallet.
 
Mar 13, 2013 at 10:12 PM Post #8 of 13
Quote:
Are laptops are a good source to play music?
-Yes and no.  Performance as a music source varies greatly from each manufacturer.
 
Will using a better headphone change/show difference the quality of the music or it will stay the same?
-Depends on the individual.  This is as much a question about listening perception, as anything technical.  There are probably 1000s of HF members who walk away from this forum with an SR60 and a smile on their face.  Source and amp upgrades most definitely WILL make your SR60 sound different, whether or not you will be happy with that is the question.
 
Do I need to buy a better audio system to unleash the potential of my SR60i?
-Depends on your preferences and hearing perception.
 
And FLAC, are they worth it to download than the MP3s? I have some CD albums too but there's also some mp3s I downloaded for those music I can't purchase from stores. This will lead me to redownload all of them in FLAC, so will it worth the hassle?
-Not sure about FLAC.  Apple lossless has been worth the effort and investment.  For me file size is really the biggest issue.  I keep my library on a few external drives.  One drive is setup for 128K MP3... good enough for the Sansa clip and iPod shuffle, where space is more a concern than anything else.
 
And thirdly, DACs. Can someone explain to me simply what are they and are they worth it for audio quality?
-An outboard DAC taps into the digital bit-stream and converts the digital-stream to an analog AC wave form.  Basically it replaces the built in sound card.  IMHO an external DAC is almost a must have.  I was a 12 year thinkpad-Lenovo-Toshiba user.  Built in sound cards in all of them ranged from bad to worse.  They all sounded very flat, dull, one dimensional, all kinds of digital clicks, blips, burps, motor/flutter sounds with my Grados... YUK!!  I've been on a Macbook Pro for the past 18 months and it has a surprisingly good sounding headphone out for all my low-Z cans.  One of my fave setups is the HF1 plugged straight into the macbook.  I also run my 16 ohm IEMs off a speaker impedance transformer, powered straight out of the macbook.  If I had to pick one laptop to go amp/DAC-less it'd be the apple MP(and I am not an apple fan in any way... just speaking out objectively).  Nice thing about the macbook is it has an optical output as well as Firewire... so there are more DAC options than most others.
 
Extra: I read some reviews about them getting huge praise and I managed to grab SR60i at 50$, anyone want to share any experience with them?
-Good cans, good value, great starting point.  I still have one at work, I just leave it there for office tunes and conference calls on the IP phone.  You could spend a lot more and get a lot worse.
 
Thank you for any replies
-Sure np, welcome to headfi and sorry about your wallet.

May I ask, why you guys call headphones as "cans"?
 
Mar 14, 2013 at 12:08 AM Post #11 of 13
Quote:

Ah, now that clears things up 
biggrin.gif


So I plugged in my SR60i into my laptop.
I put in my Dire Straits album, listen to some Tunnel Of Love and Sultans Of Swing, the cymbals and drums is perfect. The vocals is pretty clear too. The guitar solos feels like it was played in a studio just for me.

Then I listened to Maroon 5, ripped in Flac. Again, the drums, bass and cymbal crash in Sunday Morning is orgasmic. 

But then I listened for some DnB like pendulum, the sound quality does not improve much. I already expecting this, the bass exists and pretty much responsive and punchy, but not really that deep. 

So far, I feel it's really worth it to spend some dosh for better headphones. And the laptop did a great job as the audio source.

 
 
Mar 14, 2013 at 12:26 AM Post #12 of 13
The issue of quality of computer is removed when you convert out of the computer to an external DAC. Several of the USB converters provide S/Pdif to DACs so a quality older DAC still performs with the newer ones. They also have the benefit outputting I2S. More DAC makers are licensing or developing their own USB converters integrated into their product. From reading reviews, USB>I2S>DAC chip w/minimal filtering is really getting good type. Also, the setup and player has a big impact on the sound.
 
Mar 14, 2013 at 1:20 AM Post #13 of 13
Quote:
Ah, now that clears things up 
biggrin.gif


So I plugged in my SR60i into my laptop.
I put in my Dire Straits album, listen to some Tunnel Of Love and Sultans Of Swing, the cymbals and drums is perfect. The vocals is pretty clear too. The guitar solos feels like it was played in a studio just for me.

Then I listened to Maroon 5, ripped in Flac. Again, the drums, bass and cymbal crash in Sunday Morning is orgasmic. 

But then I listened for some DnB like pendulum, the sound quality does not improve much. I already expecting this, the bass exists and pretty much responsive and punchy, but not really that deep. 

So far, I feel it's really worth it to spend some dosh for better headphones. And the laptop did a great job as the audio source.

 

Well you pretty much NAILED what Grados do best... well engineered Rock.  If I had to pick a Grado top-3 CD list, to it would be Brothers in Arms, Clapton Unplugged and The Eagles Millenium Concert.  All 3 sound equally amazing, even with the simplest of grado-amplification, honestly I have never heard Brothers in Arms sound bad.  That album can make just about anything sound hi-fi.
 
Took a second to snap this pic... I am listening to Bruce Dickinson Live CD.  Macbook-iTunes => Entech DAC => Cmoy => RS1.  Simple amplification every bit as enjoyable as my more $$$ amps.
 
My Cmoy is no Grado slouch though.  TELE rail spliter, dubilier low-ESR caps, OPA2107, 18V.

 
Absolutely... it doesn't take long to find out what grados can't do.  Deep bass extension is one of those things.  I dial in 3 db at 30 hz on the iTunes EQ, and all my amps are chosen for low-Z synergy, and a fair amount of bass impact.  Most of my cans are fairly bright (except the HD-580), and just sound better with warm / colored amplification.  IMHO it would be worth your while to look into a second / complimentary headphone, or scale up from the SR60.
 

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