Flac 16 bit or 24 bit Qobuz

Jul 3, 2024 at 2:51 PM Post #106 of 138
Having a relative low acceptance does not invalidate the fact. A fact is a fact, even though not many people accept it.
You have a nack for going around in circles. You're the one that's been saying there's still "some" people accepting that 16bit audio is all that's needed for audio reproduction (when it's actuality "most"). Just because some, based on subjective bias, accept that a file being 24bit makes it more audibly transparent, does not make it objective fact. Especially when they deny the history of sound engineering, our understanding of human anatomy, and double blind tests that have been performed.
Your wild guess is 100% correct this time. M3 chip do play better music as I used HQPlayer to upsample my CD-quality files in real time to DSD256.

Having a faster chip allows me to select better filtering/dithering/modulation when upsampling files for my DAC.
:L3000: HQPlayer runs the same (even with DSD512) on a M1 or M3 chip. I think it's hilarious you think you need the most up to date computer to be able to play a stereo music file. Now if you're saying you're comparing one DAC's sound with your Mac's audio using HQPlayer with whatever settings, you're now trying to hear the difference in what DSPs are being used.
 
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Jul 3, 2024 at 6:09 PM Post #107 of 138
Having countless of Youtube videos and articles supporting one claim doesn't automatically make that claim correct. In the end, it is the content that matters; not how many supporters there are or who said it.
So why do those videos exist? Wouldn't it be easier to just say the more bits the better? A lot of people would find that very intuitive. My claim is those videos exists, because some people care about the facts and want to educate people.

Content matters, you are correct about that. What is wrong with these videos? Where do they go wrong in your opinion?

I have explained how the difference of 16 bit and 24 bit is inaudible in any practical listening scenario. It is just noise at a level too low to be heard! If you don't believe that then you don't. There are millions of too far gones (from climate change deniers to flat Earthers) in the World and trying to convince them is waste of time and energy. I can only hope my posts here help fighting disinformation. There are open-minded people who can be convinced to change their mind if given facts, logic and reason.
 
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Jul 3, 2024 at 6:46 PM Post #108 of 138
If you’re interested to know what higher bit rates have to offer home audio, see the link in my sig file “CD sound is all you need” for a full explanation. Also see “Bit rate is not resolution”.
 
Jul 4, 2024 at 4:31 AM Post #109 of 138
I made a table.
When listening with loudspeakers, the required (minimum) number of bits is displayed.
Example:
Listening distance = 4 meters
Required SPL = 88 dB
Noise = 34 dB
Minimum number of bits = 11

So where are we from the 16-bit limit?
And 20 bits is almost impossible to achieve in the real world...

hangszóró felbontás.PNG
 
Jul 5, 2024 at 11:54 AM Post #111 of 138
No, science, scientific papers, universities, text books and encyclopaedias are the keepers of the information.

Sound Science is not a cult, it’s science. The clue is in the name!

Well duh, even if “repeatable experiences by millions of people” were actually true, how is an argument based on such a common fallacy like “Argumentum ad Populam” not an anathema to science/“scientific sensibilities”? All you are doing is again confirming you don’t know what science is or even why it was invented in the first place but are nevertheless not even slightly ashamed to argue from a position of ignorance in an actual science discussion forum.

No he hasn’t, he’s proven himself entirely worthy of attention. He’s clearly not worthy of your personal attention because you clearly don’t have any attention for science, actual facts or the truth. You apparently only have any attention for disseminating the BS you’ve made-up, as your refusal to address the actual facts, the points put to you and this made-up BS quote in response proves!

G
I think the problem lies when some claim their opinion is science and that any dissenting opinions are not going against an opinion, but science itself..

Those instances are very likely an Appeal to Authority. A well-known logical fallacy.

Sure, we sadly live in post factual World, but we try to keep something alive of the better past when facts meant something.


I am bad at keeping in my mind what study has said what. My mind absorbs the core information, adds it to my knowledge/understanding and that's it. Other members here might know better.

We can ask why would 24 bit sound different from 16 bit? We know what the difference is: Take the 24 bit version and substract the 16 bit version from it. This can be easily done in Audacity for example. The result is noise at the level of 16 bit dither assuming the 24 bit version has much more real dynamic range. Can you hear this noise? You should not in reasonable listening levels. You can maybe just hear this noise if you raise it 20-30 dB, but this means the music would make you deaf and your gear would blow up. So, you never listen to music that loud and even if you did, the hearing damages would make it impossible to hear much anything. This means you don't hear this noise even when there is nothing else masking it. Now, add the music on it and you'll understand how hearing differences between 24 bit and 16 bit is a ridiculous idea, barely worth of scientific study.

However, we can hear the difference between 16 bit and 8 bit, because the dither level of 8 bit is quite high. Certain music types can mask this noise well, but not all. That's what I have concluded myself when testing it.

It really comes down to the question of why would 24 bit sound different from 16 bit? How much bits do we need in your opinion to make the sound so transparent more bits don't matter? 20 bits? 24 bits? 32 bits? 235 bits? Infinite bits? In my opinion the threshold is about 13 bits to be on the safe side, but that's just me. Some people may say 12 bits, some 14 bits, but it is somewhere there and clearly 16 bits is ENOUGH.


Why do you think we spread misinformation? If I didn't have good education, I might think bigger numbers must mean better fidelity, but I do have education that allows me to understand well what bit depth means in regards of audible fidelity. For people who have the proper education it is clear 8 bits is not enough, but 16 bits is. The threshold is somewhere between these numbers.

There are countless of Youtube videos about this. There are countless of articles about this. All just misinformation? For what reason? What are these people (including us) selling? If 16 bits wasn't enough then I would admit that of course, but luckily it is. Sometimes technology simply becomes good enough. That's the whole point of digital audio. It makes good enough easy to achieve. If we needed to add bits more and more, digital audio would just like analog audio: Good quality for billionaires who can afford the best and bad quality for normal people who can't.

Where does the NOISE come from when you down convert?

Let's do something even more extreme....what happens when you do 24bit versus 8bit?
 
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Jul 5, 2024 at 12:38 PM Post #112 of 138
I think the problem lies when some claim their opinion is science and that any dissenting opinions are not going against an opinion, but science itself..

Those instances are very likely an Appeal to Authority. A well-known logical fallacy.



Where does the NOISE come from when you down convert?

Let's do something even more extreme....what happens when you do 24bit versus 8bit?
If someone explains to you how dithering works, will you claim that this is just their opinion of how it works?
 
Jul 5, 2024 at 12:40 PM Post #113 of 138
I think the problem lies when some claim their opinion is science and that any dissenting opinions are not going against an opinion, but science itself.

It’s more fundamental than that. It boils down to those who base their beliefs on factual evidence rather than subjective impressions. You can be right or wrong either way, your perceptions might be correct and the established evidence may be wrong. But science offers a process to correct mistakes- stronger evidence. And subjective impressions are just what they are. We know that they are subject to bias and perceptual error.

Science isn’t a destination, it’s a process. It requires logic and rational thought. Subjective impressions don’t require any thought at all. It’s just a feeling, and it isn’t likely that my feeling is the same as yours. So subjective impressions are unique to the individual, they don’t apply to anyone else. Science applies to anyone in the physical world we inhabit.
 
Jul 5, 2024 at 12:43 PM Post #114 of 138
what happens when you do 24bit versus 8bit?

You lower the noise floor. Bit rate concerns the level of noise. It doesn’t concern timbre or resolution. Does that answer your question?
 
Jul 5, 2024 at 12:46 PM Post #115 of 138
I think the problem lies when some claim their opinion is science and that any dissenting opinions are not going against an opinion, but science itself..
Those instances are very likely an Appeal to Authority. A well-known logical fallacy.
I’m not sure about that. Some obviously claim their opinion is factual and is commonly an Appeal to Authority, based on some audiophile publication/reviewer or other audiophile marketer. Others claim their opinion is more valid than science, because they believe they’ve actually heard/experienced it. Some do actually claim their opinion is science and sometimes it is, but quite commonly it’s science out of context and/or cherry picked.
Where does the NOISE come from when you down convert?
It comes from dither. Dither is a required process that randomises error in the least significant bit (LSB) and this randomised error when converted to an analogue signal is uncorrelated white noise. The alternative, is no added noise and just to truncate without dither but that results in truncation error, which is higher in level, is correlated to the signal and is far more objectionable. Even more so because the noise resulting from dithering can be “shaped” (called rather appropriately “noise-shaping”), IE. The noise energy is reduced in most sensitive hearing band and moved to the most insensitive hearing band and therefore sounds much quieter, although that is relative as even non-shaped dither should be entirely inaudible at any reasonable listening level when reducing to 16bit.
Let's do something even more extreme....what happens when you do 24bit versus 8bit?
The LSB with 8bit is around the -42dB level and therefore the dither noise will be much more noticeable than around the -92dB level which is the LSB of 16bit (and is inaudible). However, even the dither noise at 8bit can be rendered inaudible with noise-shaping.

G
 
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Jul 5, 2024 at 2:23 PM Post #116 of 138
I’m not sure about that. Some obviously claim their opinion is factual and is commonly an Appeal to Authority, based on some audiophile publication/reviewer or other audiophile marketer. Others claim their opinion is more valid than science, because they believe they’ve actually heard/experienced it. Some do actually claim their opinion is science and sometimes it is, but quite commonly it’s science out of context and/or cherry picked.

It comes from dither. Dither is a required process that randomises error in the least significant bit (LSB) and this randomised error when converted to an analogue signal is uncorrelated white noise. The alternative, is no added noise and just to truncate without dither but that results in truncation error, which is higher in level, is correlated to the signal and is far more objectionable. Even more so because the noise resulting from dithering can be “shaped” (called rather appropriately “noise-shaping”), IE. The noise energy is reduced in most sensitive hearing band and moved to the most insensitive hearing band and therefore sounds much quieter, although that is relative as even non-shaped dither should be entirely inaudible at any reasonable listening level when reducing to 16bit.

The LSB with 8bit is around the -42dB level and therefore the dither noise will be much more noticeable than around the -92dB level which is the LSB of 16bit (and is inaudible). However, even the dither noise at 8bit can be rendered inaudible with noise-shaping.

G

I'm not following you on this one.... form my understanding Quantization Noise, when down converting, comes from rounding errors...not dither.
 
Jul 5, 2024 at 5:33 PM Post #119 of 138
Because the dithering is at a level far below the audible threshold.
 
Jul 5, 2024 at 6:00 PM Post #120 of 138
I think you would have an extremely hard time noticing rounding errors when truncating a signal to 16bit under a controlled test. It should not be audible under typical conditions (ie sane listening levels, room with typical noise levels combined with typical somewhat noisy studio recordings).

Forget about bits and binary numbers a bit (haha) and think about how rounding to decimals work. Rounding to the 24th decimal would usually create a smaller difference between the rounded value and the real value than rounding to the 16th decimal. This applies to binary numbers as well. Larger rounding errors require more noise to randomize the errors that is created by rounding.

When rounding to 16bits, around -96dB of noise is used to dither the signal. Such a low noise will not be noticed. If your amp outputs 1V, -96dB relative to that is about 0.015milli volts. That 1V coming from the amp would already drive an HD600 to a dangerously high ~103dB SPL to put it in perspective.

An other way to look at the 96dB figure it is considering sound pressure instead of voltage. Safe but high levels for a shorter listening session is around 80 to 90dB. A quiet but untreated room is maybe somewhere around 35dB (highly unlikely figure) to 50dB (fairly likely). So if you listen at 90dB, dither noise is below that by 96dB, which puts dither noise at -6dBSPL. In a room that has 40dB noise already. Listening to music that already has some noise recorded in it.
40dB is 0.02Pascals. -6dB is around 10micro pascals. The sum of 0.02Pa and 10uPa converted to dBSPL is ~40.04dB. This is ignoring the fact that the dither noise and room noise are not correlated so they wouldn't sum up so perfectly so the sum would be even less than that. An 0.04dB increase of noise is not audible, I promise you.
 
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