[TyTB]

er... the sdac does't have a headphone output AFAICT... so how are you controlling volume?

Focal clear OG

My vote goes to this too. Never owned one, but absolutely loved it every time I’ve heard it. They go for great prices nowadays too.

Ah you're in Canada, yeah then the Organic version is more above budget than I thought. I honestly can't give any details on how the Organic vs Stealth sounds, I've only heard the Organic, but based on others impressions they should be pretty similar so that's why I dared to give them a recommendation. I've also owned a pair of Anandas which have a similar sound signature.

Honestly though, about the amp, I'm one of the last persons to tell you that amps make any big audible differences (when certain criteria are met), but if you're running your headphones straight out of that DAC at the moment, I too would definitely recommend you get a separate headphone amp. You can keep using the current DAC, but a dedicated amplifier with volume control would ensure that you have no issues there, and dedicated volume control is usually desirable. There are many budget models to choose from (Fiio, Topping, Schiit to name a few) around the 100 currency mark.

Also, regarding the HE6SE, that's one headphone model that is notorious for requiring a beefy amp, so I would not get that, especially with your current setup. The Arya is much easier in that regard.

If it's just a line out, seems like a rather dodgy setup- especially since IIRC, these are meant to output into a high fixed resistance at the input of an amp rather than the variable impedance/current draw of a headphone?

Aside from potentially affecting audio performance, could conceivably damage the DAC output circuit or some headphones (or hearing) depending on each device's specs , software/driver stability, etc... though seems hd6xx is not such a concern

At any rate, probably wouldn't want to go out and buy some pricy low impedance planars and chance plugging them into line level?

If OP's setup is indeed this way, I'd be curious if they ever tried comparing with a proper headphone output that's a least in the ballpark of 6xx's requirements.

https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-x-grace-design-standard-dac

It's got a 3.5mm direct line output I use, volume controlled in Windows. I never exceed a volume of 40 / 100.

I know this isn't an ideal setup, so I want to mention I didn't actually buy the SDAC for this use, I originally purchased it for my father, so he could connect his computer to an older Yamaha audio receiver that doesn't have USB input. I was using an Objective 2 ODAC, until it was accidentally broken, at which point I borrowed the SDAC from my dad to tie me over until I could finally realize my plans to buy better audio gear. I could not notice any difference when switching from the ODAC Dac/Amp to the SDAC.

I've always considered this to be an inadequate setup, which is why I've been planning for years to buy a better DAC and Amp. I was originally considering the Schitt Lyr because I like the idea of being able to experience tube sound, but also being able to switch it into a solid-state mode when I want more transparent amplification, and I would pick up the modius DAC just for the matching form-factor, but then my previous post here and on Reddit both had absolutely everyone in consensus that I should first be seeking out better headphones, while continuing to use my SDAC. I Always made sure to mention in both posts, and any comments that were relevant, that I was just running everything off my SDAC, and no one seemed phased by it, until this thread.

In regards to the impedance of certain headphones requiring more power than I currently have in order to experience to their fullest, there's two things I can say to that:

1) I would rather buy headphones that I can't FULLY maximize the output of just yet, and then pick up an amp at a later date to really unleash them. I can't really explain the rationale behind this, which means it might not be very rational.... but I figure the headphones, being more expensive, and older, stand a higher chance of rising in price with inflation or becoming discontinued, whereas I can be relatively certain that there will always be some kind of affordable DAC/amp on the market, some years from now. That and I figure I'll hopefully still experience SOME increase in quality going to higher headphones, which is a nice mental reward for the expenditure, whereas I'm not sure putting my current HD6XX's on an amp will really sound that much different.

That said, I WILL be bringing my 6XX's with me to some audio stores to try them on some real gear, when making my comparisons with the models of headphones you have all recommended.

2) My understanding is that the 6XX's, with an impedance of 300 ohms, are already considered very high-impedance headphones. I understand that planar-magnetic an electrostatic headphones work in a a fundamentally different way that makes their impedance numbers not directly-comparable with standard headphones, but still, if I can run a 300-ohm 6XX okay, shouldn't I be able to run a ~50 Ohm Hifiman just fine? The Arya, the HE6Se V2, the Focal Clear, they all sit around 50 Ohms or less. Have I made a fundamental misunderstanding?

 

[earmonger]

Like others here (and probably on Reddit), I didn't realize that the SDAC is only a stopgap. Whether or not you decide to upgrade the headphones, spending $59 on a Schiit Magni + would offer you an immediate comparison to your current setup. You might end up enjoying the Sennheisers more, and the Schiit could still drive upgraded headphones if you went that route.

 

[moneypit]

I don't think you'll be happy with Clears' soundstage. Granted, I've only been listening to them since last night when I received them. However, as much as you emphasize soundstage, they aren't going to do it for you.

 

[Rattle]

If soundstage is a priority keep 6xx and get a multibit DAC and a tube amp. You're not going to get "soundstage" with your current gear.

 

[Empyah]

https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-x-grace-design-standard-dac

It's got a 3.5mm direct line output I use, volume controlled in Windows. I never exceed a volume of 40 / 100.

I know this isn't an ideal setup, so I want to mention I didn't actually buy the SDAC for this use, I originally purchased it for my father, so he could connect his computer to an older Yamaha audio receiver that doesn't have USB input. I was using an Objective 2 ODAC, until it was accidentally broken, at which point I borrowed the SDAC from my dad to tie me over until I could finally realize my plans to buy better audio gear. I could not notice any difference when switching from the ODAC Dac/Amp to the SDAC.

I've always considered this to be an inadequate setup, which is why I've been planning for years to buy a better DAC and Amp. I was originally considering the Schitt Lyr because I like the idea of being able to experience tube sound, but also being able to switch it into a solid-state mode when I want more transparent amplification, and I would pick up the modius DAC just for the matching form-factor, but then my previous post here and on Reddit both had absolutely everyone in consensus that I should first be seeking out better headphones, while continuing to use my SDAC. I Always made sure to mention in both posts, and any comments that were relevant, that I was just running everything off my SDAC, and no one seemed phased by it, until this thread.

In regards to the impedance of certain headphones requiring more power than I currently have in order to experience to their fullest, there's two things I can say to that:

1) I would rather buy headphones that I can't FULLY maximize the output of just yet, and then pick up an amp at a later date to really unleash them. I can't really explain the rationale behind this, which means it might not be very rational.... but I figure the headphones, being more expensive, and older, stand a higher chance of rising in price with inflation or becoming discontinued, whereas I can be relatively certain that there will always be some kind of affordable DAC/amp on the market, some years from now. That and I figure I'll hopefully still experience SOME increase in quality going to higher headphones, which is a nice mental reward for the expenditure, whereas I'm not sure putting my current HD6XX's on an amp will really sound that much different.

That said, I WILL be bringing my 6XX's with me to some audio stores to try them on some real gear, when making my comparisons with the models of headphones you have all recommended.

2) My understanding is that the 6XX's, with an impedance of 300 ohms, are already considered very high-impedance headphones. I understand that planar-magnetic an electrostatic headphones work in a a fundamentally different way that makes their impedance numbers not directly-comparable with standard headphones, but still, if I can run a 300-ohm 6XX okay, shouldn't I be able to run a ~50 Ohm Hifiman just fine? The Arya, the HE6Se V2, the Focal Clear, they all sit around 50 Ohms or less. Have I made a fundamental misunderstanding?

I would strongly suggest to mod your 6XX too - there are many variations but the best seems to be the KiSS-mod they compiled at SBAF:
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/hd650-kiss-mod.3440/

I did it myself (with a few modifications) and it plays WAY above it's asking price, and competes in many regards with cans up to and over 2k now, especially on totl t00b gear.
But the King of modding Sennheisers is the guy from Jupiter Audio Research that makes these crazy 3d-printed rebuilds tuned to perfection.
He has them all - JAR600/6XX and even the JAR800. He's not cheap but (I think around 3-400 bucks) but it is more than worth it and still way under those it competes with.

 

[haasaaroni]

That said, I WILL be bringing my 6XX's with me to some audio stores to try them on some real gear, when making my comparisons with the models of headphones you have all recommended.

Great idea! I see you’re getting a LOT of different recommendations for you here. I agree than an amp will make a significant difference in the performance of your 6XX, and only you’ll know what you like when you compare them to other headphones yourself.

2) My understanding is that the 6XX's, with an impedance of 300 ohms, are already considered very high-impedance headphones. I understand that planar-magnetic an electrostatic headphones work in a a fundamentally different way that makes their impedance numbers not directly-comparable with standard headphones, but still, if I can run a 300-ohm 6XX okay, shouldn't I be able to run a ~50 Ohm Hifiman just fine? The Arya, the HE6Se V2, the Focal Clear, they all sit around 50 Ohms or less. Have I made a fundamental misunderstanding?

That’s mostly right. Electrostatic headphones are the exception, and need an energized (rather than an amp) to be powered. Other than OTL tube amps (which are only good for high-impedance dynamics like your 6XX), it’s safe to say that dynamic driver and planar magnetic driver headphones can be run from the same amp. Whether that amp will really be optimal for each headphone is another discussion. But that’s for a little further down the road in your journey

 

[preauxtip]

To answer your question about impedance higher impedance does not mean harder to drive, in fact it can mean easier to drive because they require less current.

But that's not our concern with the SDAC and low impedance headphones, our concern is the output impedance of the SDAC itself vs the input impedance of the specific headphone you are running. Whenever you run an output device that is intended to run headphones or speakers or what have you it is in many cases (OTL excluded) going to have an output impedance of 0-1 ohms, very low. Meanwhile your SDAC 3.5mm line out has an output impedance of around 150 ohm.

Normally you want the input impedance of one device to be at least 10x higher than the output impedance of the preceding device (again, there can be exceptions). This will ensure you are properly damping the driver and not modifying the frequency response around a driver's resonance point. In the case of the HD6xx these problems actually aren't very large problems and in fact many people seek out high output impedance devices (like OTL tube amps) to pair with their HD6xx because subjectively they like the sound. At this very moment I have a HD6xx on my head running off an OTL tube amp with an output impedance of around 150 ohm and its wonderful.

However if I plug my Hifiman HE400se into this it is not wonderful anymore. The drivers are completely uncontrolled, the bass becomes sloppy and bloated, the distortion goes nuts, its just bad. If my OTL tube amp instead had an output transformer to modify the output impedance to a lower amount like say 4 ohms then most of those problems would disappear and the HE400se would sound great again.

In short, high output impedance sources are mostly limited to pairing with high input impedance headphones like 300 ohm dynamic driver Sennheisers or ZMFs.

 

[Kerry56]

I agree with the others about getting an amp. I have the SDAC myself, and use it with a Cavalli Spark amp, and that combo will drive most headphones with no issues. In the low price range for amps, I'd consider a JDS Atom II also.

No one has mentioned another headphone option for you in your price range, which is the JM Audio Editions XTC, which comes in an open back version or closed. For your stated aims, I'd go for the open back. John Massaria, the owner of the company, will tune your headphone to your individual needs, and will work with you to your satisfaction. Take a look in this thread: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/jm-audio-editions-xtc-headphones.966501/

 

[spittis]

https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-x-grace-design-standard-dac

It's got a 3.5mm direct line output I use, volume controlled in Windows. I never exceed a volume of 40 / 100.

I know this isn't an ideal setup, so I want to mention I didn't actually buy the SDAC for this use, I originally purchased it for my father, so he could connect his computer to an older Yamaha audio receiver that doesn't have USB input. I was using an Objective 2 ODAC, until it was accidentally broken, at which point I borrowed the SDAC from my dad to tie me over until I could finally realize my plans to buy better audio gear. I could not notice any difference when switching from the ODAC Dac/Amp to the SDAC.

I've always considered this to be an inadequate setup, which is why I've been planning for years to buy a better DAC and Amp. I was originally considering the Schitt Lyr because I like the idea of being able to experience tube sound, but also being able to switch it into a solid-state mode when I want more transparent amplification, and I would pick up the modius DAC just for the matching form-factor, but then my previous post here and on Reddit both had absolutely everyone in consensus that I should first be seeking out better headphones, while continuing to use my SDAC. I Always made sure to mention in both posts, and any comments that were relevant, that I was just running everything off my SDAC, and no one seemed phased by it, until this thread.

In regards to the impedance of certain headphones requiring more power than I currently have in order to experience to their fullest, there's two things I can say to that:

1) I would rather buy headphones that I can't FULLY maximize the output of just yet, and then pick up an amp at a later date to really unleash them. I can't really explain the rationale behind this, which means it might not be very rational.... but I figure the headphones, being more expensive, and older, stand a higher chance of rising in price with inflation or becoming discontinued, whereas I can be relatively certain that there will always be some kind of affordable DAC/amp on the market, some years from now. That and I figure I'll hopefully still experience SOME increase in quality going to higher headphones, which is a nice mental reward for the expenditure, whereas I'm not sure putting my current HD6XX's on an amp will really sound that much different.

That said, I WILL be bringing my 6XX's with me to some audio stores to try them on some real gear, when making my comparisons with the models of headphones you have all recommended.

2) My understanding is that the 6XX's, with an impedance of 300 ohms, are already considered very high-impedance headphones. I understand that planar-magnetic an electrostatic headphones work in a a fundamentally different way that makes their impedance numbers not directly-comparable with standard headphones, but still, if I can run a 300-ohm 6XX okay, shouldn't I be able to run a ~50 Ohm Hifiman just fine? The Arya, the HE6Se V2, the Focal Clear, they all sit around 50 Ohms or less. Have I made a fundamental misunderstanding?

It's interesting that you mainly got recommended other headphones when your current way of using the headphones is slightly "dodgy". But just to be clear, there may not be any big difference with a proper dedicated amp, but since it won't set you back that much, I would personally go for it, for the peace of mind.

Regarding point 2), impedance is not everything, how "hard" a headphone is to drive is determined by the impedance and sensitivity. Taking the 6XX, Arya Stealth, and HE6se V2 as example (I did these quickly so hopefully someone corrects me if I made a mistake):

Model	Impedance (ohms)	Sensitivity (dB/mW)	Required for 110 dB loudness
6XX	300	98	2.18 V / 0.0073 A / 15.8 mW
Arya Stealth	32	94	1.12 V / 0.0353 A / 39.8 mW
HE6se V2	50	84	4.46 V / 0.0892 A / 398 mW

As you can see, the HE6se requires much more power than the other two due to the low sensitivity, despite having a rather low impedance. Even the Arya, despite having lower impedance, needs more power than the 6XX to get to the same loudness. A higher impedance will require a higher voltage (V) to get sufficient current (A) and thus the desired power (W). Conversely, a lower impedance requires more current at the same sensitivity. Both current and/or voltage can be a limiting factor for an amplifier in a situation where it can't provide enough power to get to the desired SPL.

If you want to check these for yourselves, the calculator I used is here: https://headphones.com/pages/headphones-power-calculator

edit* to add to this, I actually think it's plausible that the DAC you're using as a source right now can provide adequate voltage for say the 6XX, but may fall apart due to being current limited with a lower impedance & sensitivity headphone.

 

[msing539]

HE6SE v2 is recommended to have 2W minimum @ 50 ohms and an amp that can handle the voltage. At lower listening volumes, a few hundred mW is probably fine.

 

[spittis]

HE6SE v2 is recommended to have 2W minimum @ 50 ohms and an amp that can handle the voltage. At lower listening volumes, a few hundred mW is probably fine.

I've seen the 2W minimum spec mentioned now and then, but even taking some impedance variation into account 2W power should result in around 115 - 117 dB loudness which I'd argue is too much for most people. Obviously you want some headroom though.

 

[TyTB]

Like others here (and probably on Reddit), I didn't realize that the SDAC is only a stopgap. Whether or not you decide to upgrade the headphones, spending $59 on a Schiit Magni + would offer you an immediate comparison to your current setup. You might end up enjoying the Sennheisers more, and the Schiit could still drive upgraded headphones if you went that route.

I spent the day at a headphone shop listening to some of the recommendations I've been getting, such as the HD800s, Arya Organics, Focal Clear MG, etc. I was playing songs off my phone, through the FiiO K7 DAC/Amp. I brought my 6XX's with me, and they sounded exactly the same on the FiiO amp as I was used to. Likewise, when my O2 amp broke and I had to switch to the SDAC, I didn't notice any change in sound, so I think I'm in the clear with the SDAC, at least when it comes to the 6XX's. That might not be the case if I get different headphones, but like you and others have said, there are some very cheap Amps I can pick up, and I will do so if necessary.

I don't think you'll be happy with Clears' soundstage. Granted, I've only been listening to them since last night when I received them. However, as much as you emphasize soundstage, they aren't going to do it for you.

Yeah, so I got to listen to the Focal Clear MG's today. Not the "Focal Clear OG", the MG. The OG version is discontinued and cannot be purchased at the stores near me, so the MG is the only one I can actually try out, and yeah, no, they definitely were not doing it for me. They sounded damn near identical to my 6XX's, I didn't notice any bigger soundstage or anything, just a bit more detail in the bass.

Great idea! I see you’re getting a LOT of different recommendations for you here. I agree than an amp will make a significant difference in the performance of your 6XX, and only you’ll know what you like when you compare them to other headphones yourself.

That’s mostly right. Electrostatic headphones are the exception, and need an energized (rather than an amp) to be powered. Other than OTL tube amps (which are only good for high-impedance dynamics like your 6XX), it’s safe to say that dynamic driver and planar magnetic driver headphones can be run from the same amp. Whether that amp will really be optimal for each headphone is another discussion. But that’s for a little further down the road in your journey

Further down the road, behind the hill, over the mountain, across the ocean, on the other hemisphere.

I was able to get into a store today to try out most of the headphones that have bene recommended to me... please see my thoughts at the end of this reply.

To answer your question about impedance higher impedance does not mean harder to drive, in fact it can mean easier to drive because they require less current.

But that's not our concern with the SDAC and low impedance headphones, our concern is the output impedance of the SDAC itself vs the input impedance of the specific headphone you are running. Whenever you run an output device that is intended to run headphones or speakers or what have you it is in many cases (OTL excluded) going to have an output impedance of 0-1 ohms, very low. Meanwhile your SDAC 3.5mm line out has an output impedance of around 150 ohm.

Normally you want the input impedance of one device to be at least 10x higher than the output impedance of the preceding device (again, there can be exceptions). This will ensure you are properly damping the driver and not modifying the frequency response around a driver's resonance point. In the case of the HD6xx these problems actually aren't very large problems and in fact many people seek out high output impedance devices (like OTL tube amps) to pair with their HD6xx because subjectively they like the sound. At this very moment I have a HD6xx on my head running off an OTL tube amp with an output impedance of around 150 ohm and its wonderful.

However if I plug my Hifiman HE400se into this it is not wonderful anymore. The drivers are completely uncontrolled, the bass becomes sloppy and bloated, the distortion goes nuts, its just bad. If my OTL tube amp instead had an output transformer to modify the output impedance to a lower amount like say 4 ohms then most of those problems would disappear and the HE400se would sound great again.

In short, high output impedance sources are mostly limited to pairing with high input impedance headphones like 300 ohm dynamic driver Sennheisers or ZMFs.

Thank you for the explanation! It went a little over my heard when you started talking about damping the drivers and resonance points, but I got the point that the input impedance of the headphones should be >>> the output impedance of the DAC/Amp they're running off of.

I agree with the others about getting an amp. I have the SDAC myself, and use it with a Cavalli Spark amp, and that combo will drive most headphones with no issues. In the low price range for amps, I'd consider a JDS Atom II also.

No one has mentioned another headphone option for you in your price range, which is the JM Audio Editions XTC, which comes in an open back version or closed. For your stated aims, I'd go for the open back. John Massaria, the owner of the company, will tune your headphone to your individual needs, and will work with you to your satisfaction. Take a look in this thread: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/jm-audio-editions-xtc-headphones.966501/

Oh wow, what a remarkable product, the JM Audio headphones. Thank you for mentioning them. I don't even know where to begin to incorporate that into my analysis. I'm over here trying to weigh the pros and cons of the HD800s vs the Arya Organics vs the Focal Clear, and then this handcrafted, made-by-a-guy headphone comes out of left field and apparently is phenomenal? How do I compare it to the others? Where does it stack up against the likes of established "greats" like the HD800s? There's no way I could try these on first, so I don't know how I would ever be able to take that leap of blind faith.

It's interesting that you mainly got recommended other headphones when your current way of using the headphones is slightly "dodgy". But just to be clear, there may not be any big difference with a proper dedicated amp, but since it won't set you back that much, I would personally go for it, for the peace of mind.

Regarding point 2), impedance is not everything, how "hard" a headphone is to drive is determined by the impedance and sensitivity. Taking the 6XX, Arya Stealth, and HE6se V2 as example (I did these quickly so hopefully someone corrects me if I made a mistake):

Model	Impedance (ohms)	Sensitivity (dB/mW)	Required for 110 dB loudness
6XX	300	98	2.18 V / 0.0073 A / 15.8 mW
Arya Stealth	32	94	1.12 V / 0.0353 A / 39.8 mW
HE6se V2	50	84	4.46 V / 0.0892 A / 398 mW

As you can see, the HE6se requires much more power than the other two due to the low sensitivity, despite having a rather low impedance. Even the Arya, despite having lower impedance, needs more power than the 6XX to get to the same loudness. A higher impedance will require a higher voltage (V) to get sufficient current (A) and thus the desired power (W). Conversely, a lower impedance requires more current at the same sensitivity. Both current and/or voltage can be a limiting factor for an amplifier in a situation where it can't provide enough power to get to the desired SPL.

If you want to check these for yourselves, the calculator I used is here: https://headphones.com/pages/headphones-power-calculator

edit* to add to this, I actually think it's plausible that the DAC you're using as a source right now can provide adequate voltage for say the 6XX, but may fall apart due to being current limited with a lower impedance & sensitivity headphone.

Thank you very much for your clear explanation of this! This helps a lot.

And yeah, Users on Head-Fi and Reddit were both unanimous in their declaration that buying better headphones should be my biggest concern, not replacing the SDAC at this moment.

-------

RESULTS FROM TODAY'S LISTENING AT A STORE:

So, I was able to get into a store today to listen to some of the recommendations I've been getting, such as the HD800s, Arya Organics, Focal Clear MG, etc. I was playing songs off my phone, through the FiiO K7 DAC/Amp. I brought my 6XX's with me, and they sounded exactly the same on the FiiO amp as I was used to on my SDAC, so that was a good sign.

Unfortunately, this experience today left me feeling more confused and lost that I have felt in years.

I tried listening to: Sennheiser HD800s, Hifiman Arya Organic, Hifiman Edition XS, Focal Clear MG, Denon AH-D5200

To sum it up, I could B.A.R.E.L.Y. notice any difference at all between my 6XX's and the HD800s and Arya Organics. I came to the store expecting a vastly improved soundstage, much greater detail, new sounds/instruments I had never heard before in my songs, etc. Instead, all I got was basically the exact same sound, just less... condensed? Less veiled? More clear? I don't quite know how to articulate it, it was so subtle.

I listened exclusively to the .flac songs that I have, and I did A-B testing over and over and over, replaying a song, replaying a part of a song, replaying a 3-second clip of a song to hear a specific sound, or strum, or gasp, just to see if there were any differences as I rapidly switched back and forth between headphones while keeping things volume-matched, and..... nothing.

The $2500 headphones sounded exactly the same as my $200 ones, just a bit clearer, and a bit less veiled. The sound stage was no bigger at all, all music and instruments were coming from the center of my head (except for the guitar in Snow (Hey Oh), which played outside the right ear in all headphones).

I am at a loss of words. I knew that when I stepped up from the 6XX's to these other models, that I wouldn't be experiencing the same world-changing difference that I experienced when going from $50 childhood headphones to the 6XX's, but I still expected SOME kind of difference that merited the extra $2300 in expense, and there was just... nothing.

Am I missing something here?

HD 800s - Nice and clear, with a focus on the mids and trebles.
Arya Organic - Equally as clear as the HD800s, but with a bit less mids, an a bit more bass an subbase.
Focal Clear MG - A bit clearer than my 6XX's, but with an equally closed-sounding soundstage as the 6XX's, and a poor fit for my ears.
Denon AH-D5200 - Stronger base and trebles than the others, as to be expected from the more "U" shaped profile, but overall less detailed. Didn't sound any more detailed than my 6XX's.
My 6XX's - Individual sounds and instruments and words sounded just as good as on the HD800s or the Arya Organics, but slightly "condensed", or "muffled", or like they were being said from 20 feet down in a tunnel.

I haven't felt this lost in years. I have no idea what to do now. I really, truly, heard almost no difference in this testing. Only the HD800s and the Arya Organics sounded any better than my 6XX's, and the only way in which they sounded better was that they sounded a bit clearer, like some muffling had been removed. The Arya Organic's had better base than the HD800's, but once I added a bit of bass to the 800's with an EQ, they sounded identical to the Organics.


Guys. I'm so lost. Please help.

 

[haasaaroni]

I spent the day at a headphone shop listening to some of the recommendations I've been getting, such as the HD800s, Arya Organics, Focal Clear MG, etc. I was playing songs off my phone, through the FiiO K7 DAC/Amp. I brought my 6XX's with me, and they sounded exactly the same on the FiiO amp as I was used to. Likewise, when my O2 amp broke and I had to switch to the SDAC, I didn't notice any change in sound, so I think I'm in the clear with the SDAC, at least when it comes to the 6XX's. That might not be the case if I get different headphones, but like you and others have said, there are some very cheap Amps I can pick up, and I will do so if necessary.



Yeah, so I got to listen to the Focal Clear MG's today. Not the "Focal Clear OG", the MG. The OG version is discontinued and cannot be purchased at the stores near me, so the MG is the only one I can actually try out, and yeah, no, they definitely were not doing it for me. They sounded damn near identical to my 6XX's, I didn't notice any bigger soundstage or anything, just a bit more detail in the bass.


Further down the road, behind the hill, over the mountain, across the ocean, on the other hemisphere.

I was able to get into a store today to try out most of the headphones that have bene recommended to me... please see my thoughts at the end of this reply.



Thank you for the explanation! It went a little over my heard when you started talking about damping the drivers and resonance points, but I got the point that the input impedance of the headphones should be >>> the output impedance of the DAC/Amp they're running off of.



Oh wow, what a remarkable product, the JM Audio headphones. Thank you for mentioning them. I don't even know where to begin to incorporate that into my analysis. I'm over here trying to weigh the pros and cons of the HD800s vs the Arya Organics vs the Focal Clear, and then this handcrafted, made-by-a-guy headphone comes out of left field and apparently is phenomenal? How do I compare it to the others? Where does it stack up against the likes of established "greats" like the HD800s? There's no way I could try these on first, so I don't know how I would ever be able to take that leap of blind faith.



Thank you very much for your clear explanation of this! This helps a lot.

And yeah, Users on Head-Fi and Reddit were both unanimous in their declaration that buying better headphones should be my biggest concern, not replacing the SDAC at this moment.

-------

RESULTS FROM TODAY'S LISTENING AT A STORE:

So, I was able to get into a store today to listen to some of the recommendations I've been getting, such as the HD800s, Arya Organics, Focal Clear MG, etc. I was playing songs off my phone, through the FiiO K7 DAC/Amp. I brought my 6XX's with me, and they sounded exactly the same on the FiiO amp as I was used to on my SDAC, so that was a good sign.

Unfortunately, this experience today left me feeling more confused and lost that I have felt in years.

I tried listening to: Sennheiser HD800s, Hifiman Arya Organic, Hifiman Edition XS, Focal Clear MG, Denon AH-D5200

To sum it up, I could B.A.R.E.L.Y. notice any difference at all between my 6XX's and the HD800s and Arya Organics. I came to the store expecting a vastly improved soundstage, much greater detail, new sounds/instruments I had never heard before in my songs, etc. Instead, all I got was basically the exact same sound, just less... condensed? Less veiled? More clear? I don't quite know how to articulate it, it was so subtle.

I listened exclusively to the .flac songs that I have, and I did A-B testing over and over and over, replaying a song, replaying a part of a song, replaying a 3-second clip of a song to hear a specific sound, or strum, or gasp, just to see if there were any differences as I rapidly switched back and forth between headphones while keeping things volume-matched, and..... nothing.

The $2500 headphones sounded exactly the same as my $200 ones, just a bit clearer, and a bit less veiled. The sound stage was no bigger at all, all music and instruments were coming from the center of my head (except for the guitar in Snow (Hey Oh), which played outside the right ear in all headphones).

I am at a loss of words. I knew that when I stepped up from the 6XX's to these other models, that I wouldn't be experiencing the same world-changing difference that I experienced when going from $50 childhood headphones to the 6XX's, but I still expected SOME kind of difference that merited the extra $2300 in expense, and there was just... nothing.

Am I missing something here?

HD 800s - Nice and clear, with a focus on the mids and trebles.
Arya Organic - Equally as clear as the HD800s, but with a bit less mids, an a bit more bass an subbase.
Focal Clear MG - A bit clearer than my 6XX's, but with an equally closed-sounding soundstage as the 6XX's, and a poor fit for my ears.
Denon AH-D5200 - Stronger base and trebles than the others, as to be expected from the more "U" shaped profile, but overall less detailed. Didn't sound any more detailed than my 6XX's.
My 6XX's - Individual sounds and instruments and words sounded just as good as on the HD800s or the Arya Organics, but slightly "condensed", or "muffled", or like they were being said from 20 feet down in a tunnel.

I haven't felt this lost in years. I have no idea what to do now. I really, truly, heard almost no difference in this testing. Only the HD800s and the Arya Organics sounded any better than my 6XX's, and the only way in which they sounded better was that they sounded a bit clearer, like some muffling had been removed. The Arya Organic's had better base than the HD800's, but once I added a bit of bass to the 800's with an EQ, they sounded identical to the Organics.


Guys. I'm so lost. Please help.

You know, it reminds me of DMS's review of the Sennheiser HE-1 (59,000 Euro headphone system), saying something like "It's the ultimate HD 650" (I could be misremembering). For decades now people have been trying to find an upgrade from the HD 650, with only moderate levels of success, and almost always wayyyy more money. You started with such a good value headphone, it's hard to appreciate something that does almost the same as it does but for much more money. I feel you!

The 800S gave me the same feeling when I first heard them. When people talked about a "vast" soundstage, it inspired more imagination than the real thing could bring. I've come to learn that for myself, that "vastness" is very track and chain-dependent. The reality is headphones will never sound like speakers. If you want that speaker-like sound, get speakers, and don't even mess with headphones anymore.

But if you're like me and you don't want to annoy the people living near you, you can enjoy headphones for what they are. Not super expansive, but with an intimacy that should really be treated as its own experience. I'd say stick with the 6XX for now (not spending $2300 is GREAT!) and keep finding ways to listen to different setups and different headphones. You might conclude, like many have, that the 6XX is all you need. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

 

[msing539]

I spent the day at a headphone shop listening to some of the recommendations I've been getting, such as the HD800s, Arya Organics, Focal Clear MG, etc. I was playing songs off my phone, through the FiiO K7 DAC/Amp. I brought my 6XX's with me, and they sounded exactly the same on the FiiO amp as I was used to. Likewise, when my O2 amp broke and I had to switch to the SDAC, I didn't notice any change in sound, so I think I'm in the clear with the SDAC, at least when it comes to the 6XX's. That might not be the case if I get different headphones, but like you and others have said, there are some very cheap Amps I can pick up, and I will do so if necessary.



Yeah, so I got to listen to the Focal Clear MG's today. Not the "Focal Clear OG", the MG. The OG version is discontinued and cannot be purchased at the stores near me, so the MG is the only one I can actually try out, and yeah, no, they definitely were not doing it for me. They sounded damn near identical to my 6XX's, I didn't notice any bigger soundstage or anything, just a bit more detail in the bass.


Further down the road, behind the hill, over the mountain, across the ocean, on the other hemisphere.

I was able to get into a store today to try out most of the headphones that have bene recommended to me... please see my thoughts at the end of this reply.



Thank you for the explanation! It went a little over my heard when you started talking about damping the drivers and resonance points, but I got the point that the input impedance of the headphones should be >>> the output impedance of the DAC/Amp they're running off of.



Oh wow, what a remarkable product, the JM Audio headphones. Thank you for mentioning them. I don't even know where to begin to incorporate that into my analysis. I'm over here trying to weigh the pros and cons of the HD800s vs the Arya Organics vs the Focal Clear, and then this handcrafted, made-by-a-guy headphone comes out of left field and apparently is phenomenal? How do I compare it to the others? Where does it stack up against the likes of established "greats" like the HD800s? There's no way I could try these on first, so I don't know how I would ever be able to take that leap of blind faith.



Thank you very much for your clear explanation of this! This helps a lot.

And yeah, Users on Head-Fi and Reddit were both unanimous in their declaration that buying better headphones should be my biggest concern, not replacing the SDAC at this moment.

-------

RESULTS FROM TODAY'S LISTENING AT A STORE:

So, I was able to get into a store today to listen to some of the recommendations I've been getting, such as the HD800s, Arya Organics, Focal Clear MG, etc. I was playing songs off my phone, through the FiiO K7 DAC/Amp. I brought my 6XX's with me, and they sounded exactly the same on the FiiO amp as I was used to on my SDAC, so that was a good sign.

Unfortunately, this experience today left me feeling more confused and lost that I have felt in years.

I tried listening to: Sennheiser HD800s, Hifiman Arya Organic, Hifiman Edition XS, Focal Clear MG, Denon AH-D5200

To sum it up, I could B.A.R.E.L.Y. notice any difference at all between my 6XX's and the HD800s and Arya Organics. I came to the store expecting a vastly improved soundstage, much greater detail, new sounds/instruments I had never heard before in my songs, etc. Instead, all I got was basically the exact same sound, just less... condensed? Less veiled? More clear? I don't quite know how to articulate it, it was so subtle.

I listened exclusively to the .flac songs that I have, and I did A-B testing over and over and over, replaying a song, replaying a part of a song, replaying a 3-second clip of a song to hear a specific sound, or strum, or gasp, just to see if there were any differences as I rapidly switched back and forth between headphones while keeping things volume-matched, and..... nothing.

The $2500 headphones sounded exactly the same as my $200 ones, just a bit clearer, and a bit less veiled. The sound stage was no bigger at all, all music and instruments were coming from the center of my head (except for the guitar in Snow (Hey Oh), which played outside the right ear in all headphones).

I am at a loss of words. I knew that when I stepped up from the 6XX's to these other models, that I wouldn't be experiencing the same world-changing difference that I experienced when going from $50 childhood headphones to the 6XX's, but I still expected SOME kind of difference that merited the extra $2300 in expense, and there was just... nothing.

Am I missing something here?

HD 800s - Nice and clear, with a focus on the mids and trebles.
Arya Organic - Equally as clear as the HD800s, but with a bit less mids, an a bit more bass an subbase.
Focal Clear MG - A bit clearer than my 6XX's, but with an equally closed-sounding soundstage as the 6XX's, and a poor fit for my ears.
Denon AH-D5200 - Stronger base and trebles than the others, as to be expected from the more "U" shaped profile, but overall less detailed. Didn't sound any more detailed than my 6XX's.
My 6XX's - Individual sounds and instruments and words sounded just as good as on the HD800s or the Arya Organics, but slightly "condensed", or "muffled", or like they were being said from 20 feet down in a tunnel.

I haven't felt this lost in years. I have no idea what to do now. I really, truly, heard almost no difference in this testing. Only the HD800s and the Arya Organics sounded any better than my 6XX's, and the only way in which they sounded better was that they sounded a bit clearer, like some muffling had been removed. The Arya Organic's had better base than the HD800's, but once I added a bit of bass to the 800's with an EQ, they sounded identical to the Organics.


Guys. I'm so lost. Please help.

How loud would you say you were listening to all these different headphones?

 

[preauxtip]

Guys. I'm so lost. Please help.

I don't think you sound lost, you sound like you know exactly what you experienced and what you like. If anything it sounds like you're trying to justify why those headphones are $2000 and yours are only $200 and struggling to do so and I would suggest just not trying to do that. Also you're talking about the 6xx which is one of the best bang for buck headphones out there, it's trading blows for a reason.