Finally warming up to the K340
Oct 12, 2007 at 5:58 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 15

catscratch

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Well, it took some time and a bit of tweaking, but I finally got my pair to sound pretty much the way that I wanted to.

At first, I complained about an excessively bright treble and a channel imbalance whereby the left driver would produce more bass than the right. It was suggested that the fit was the culprit and I wasn't getting a good seal. But, try as I might, I couldn't get the damn things to fit right.

But, a few months back I got my hands on some new K240 pads which happen to fit the K340 quite well, and all of a sudden it became much easier to get a proper seal. I also experimented quite a bit with fit and earcup placement, and finally found what works. Now, the treble is still a bit on the bright side, but it isn't painful or overbearing, the bass is back where it belongs, and everything sounds much more tonally balanced.

And what a sound it is!

I've been raised on electrostatic headphones, so I can't really live with any kind of slow impulse response. For that reason, even though I have heard or had some very good dynamic setups (HD600 + Raptor was terrific while I had it on loan), I could never live with the fact that when the music became dense and complex, dynamics started to lose resolution and microdetail in each individual instrument. Leading edges became soft and fuzzy as they clashed with the trailing edges of sounds, the space between instruments was lost, and everything became a blur.

On electrostats, this doesn't happen; when the music gets dense electrostats get their groove on, and never lose sight of each individual instrument no matter what you try to overload them with. I listen to a lot of fast, dense music - death metal, very fast and dense electronica, large-scale symphonic pieces that aren't exactly light or simple (Stravinsky, for instance) - and for much of it, dynamics just couldn't cut it.

At the same time, 'stats had their own flaws. The imaging was more diffuse than it was in dynamic headphones, instruments seemed to come from a general area in space instead of being precisely localized, and because of the limited excursion of electrostatic drivers, there was a noticeable lack of bass slam and limited tactile feedback across the sound spectrum.

In effect, it seemed as if you were looking at a finely rendered three-dimensional hologram rather than a real object standing in front of you. It was nice, but it didn't have that tactile, palpable reality that a good dynamic could produce.

So far, the only headphones that have been able to bridge that gap were balanced-armature canalphones, but they, even at the top end, simply cannot compete with a seriously hi-fi headphone like the SR-404, especially when it is in a well-matched system.

The K340, however, gives me a good bit of both worlds.

The electret tweeter adds a lot of speed and precision to the highs, which in turn makes the transients lightning quick and very precise. Leading edges are crisp while trailing edges still have a nice decay; there is a bit of unnatural sharpness but it isn't overblown.

The dynamic mains driver doesn't suffer from the excursion problmes of the SR-404, so you still have music that has a lot of body and slam. The tactile component is very much there, and you feel as if you could reach out and touch the instruments.

My pair is bass-light, so it's driven with a very warm, mushy sounding amp to give it tonal balance. Overall, you have a somewhat bright sound, but with a good bit of emphasis on the lower midrange, so while the highs illuminate the detail the mids remain lush and warm. Detail is seriously awesome (better than the SR-404, which wasn't the case in a bass-heavy pair I heard) and imaging has none of the diffuse character so typical of electrostatics. Everything is precisely localized in space and images are crisp and specific. The soundstage is a bit smallish, but it manages to pack an awful lot of dimensional information into a small(er) space.

The downsides? The bass doesn't go down very deep, especially compared to the SR-404. There is a sense of missing sub-bass information, especially when you're listening to music that has a lot of sub-bass information that you're familiar with. What bass is there is snappy, tight, and quite impactful, and well balanced with the rest of the frequency spectrum.

The treble is also a bit overeager still, so you have a light lustre and slight sharpness to the sound. However, because the treble is so linear there are no peaks to make it sound harsh, and because the mids are so warm the sharpness doesn't extend to them.

But, here's the catch:

In order to get this kind of a seal, I physically have to hold the earcups in place. If I just let them dangle, the right earcup comes off at the bottom, and all of the bass leaks out; then we're back to square one, with a bright, sharp sound and channel imbalance.

This isn't merely an issue of old elastics; I've done some rubber band therapy and tighened the elastics quite a bit. The right earcup now rests on the ear quite firmly, but still the bass leaks out, and the sound isn't balanced.

I guess it's my big noggin, since some of my friends who've tried the system don't have this issue at all.

So, what I need is more clamping force.

Which brings me to my question: it is possible to fit a different headband mechanism to the K340? Something along the lines of a DT770 headband would do quite well, or maybe even an HD600/HD650 headband for maximum clamping power. This force would have to be applied somewhere to the middle/bottom middle of the earcup, since it is the bottom half of the earcup that has the most issues with staying in place.

I've heard that the two metal bars in the headband actually conduct the signal from earcup to earcup, making headband replacement tricky. But what if we were to re-cable them to dual-entry? Couldn't we ditch the headband then?

I don't have any experience with doing this, besides, this pair sounds so much better than other stock pairs I've sampled, that I'm very reluctant to experiment with it or send it away to someone that doesn't know what they're doing.

These experiences have made be believe that fit is far more important than anything else to these headphones. I don't even think they need driver tweaks per se, if the fit was right they'd be just about perfect for what they are. They already sound better than the SR-404 out of an SRM-007t, which is a fairly formidable system.

All that, for $200, out of a $200 amp. Amazing.
 
Oct 12, 2007 at 8:48 AM Post #2 of 15
Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif
All that, for $200, out of a $200 amp. Amazing.


Want to sell?
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Oct 12, 2007 at 9:12 AM Post #3 of 15
I've found that a lot of K340 have a loose fit, and they all seem to be made only for giant-headed people. Luckily the size of my head and the shape of my ear/neck always allowed for a good seal on all three pairs of K340 I've had. But I can fully understand how that might not be the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I've heard that the two metal bars in the headband actually conduct the signal from earcup to earcup, making headband replacement tricky. But what if we were to re-cable them to dual-entry? Couldn't we ditch the headband then?


Yep, that's exactly what the two wires above the headband do apart from holding everything in place, and yep, if you recable to dual-entry, you can remove the headband assembly and tinker in whatever you can get to fit, ideally one with a center-point mount to fit the construction of the earpieces. (by the way, to be clear, I'm talking 'wires' for the spring/conductor struts, 'headband' just for the soft part touching your head, and 'assembly' for both together)

However, there are some cheaper options you might try first, especially since you're hesitant about changing the sound. Have you tried the velour pads? They are softer and might give you a better seal, others have found them useful precisely for this reason. A second possibility is to do away with the elastics and instead use string to fix the headband at the appropriate level for you-- this might help the wires apply pressure more evenly by changing earpiece positioning. I wouldn't bother trying to bend the wires tighter, it never worked for me. However, what I have found useful is to replace the stock band with a shorter custom headband. You could cut one out of leather, for instance, or whatever you like. The shorter length will force the elastics to stretch more tightly, which can have the effect of tightening clamping pressure.

Good luck, and enjoy, FV
 
Oct 12, 2007 at 9:15 AM Post #4 of 15
Quote:

I could never live with the fact that when the music became dense and complex, dynamics started to lose resolution and microdetail in each individual instrument. Leading edges became soft and fuzzy as they clashed with the trailing edges of sounds, the space between instruments was lost, and everything became a blur.


The funny thing is, real life music sounds just like this, or even worse if you are sitting further away from the source of the sound. In a real music setting, that kind of microdetail would almost never be audible. But it still sounds good, doesn't it?
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Oct 12, 2007 at 1:43 PM Post #5 of 15
what kind of mods have you own your pair?
 
Oct 12, 2007 at 3:29 PM Post #6 of 15
I am very surprised that your K340 sounds better than your SR-404. The bass heavy K340 I sold, had a very annoying reverb issue, as I mentioned in the Stax thread. The midrange was superb, but that was about it. My SR-Lambda wiped the floor with them. The resolution, micro details tonal balance everything was better about SR-Lambda. The only things I liked K340 for were groovy guitar rock type of music and IDM, Jazz did sound good on them at all. Hell even my QP85 kicked their ass for Jazz. Another thing I did not like about the K340 was the soundstage, very in your head like and claustrophobic.

I want to hear a different version to see if i like it more....
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Oct 12, 2007 at 3:36 PM Post #7 of 15
I owned the SR-404 recently, and while I was surprised at it's performance, it's not in the same league as my K340. I much prefered the K340 in all aspects.
 
Oct 12, 2007 at 3:42 PM Post #8 of 15
Quote:

Originally Posted by swt61 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I owned the SR-404 recently, and while I was surprised at it's performance, it's not in the same league as my K340. I much prefered the K340 in all aspects.


What kind of music do you listen to and what are you looking for in sound? Do you want to just groove along or do you analyze music? I think that's where the difference come in.....
 
Oct 12, 2007 at 5:22 PM Post #9 of 15
Quote:

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The funny thing is, real life music sounds just like this, or even worse if you are sitting further away from the source of the sound. In a real music setting, that kind of microdetail would almost never be audible. But it still sounds good, doesn't it?
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If you are at a Jazz performance in a small club, you can hear all the microdetail there is. Live music in a quite setting will provide you with tones of detail, I know I have been to many sets where you can hear the fret work and even the rustling of the shirt on the musicians.

Rock music in MSG is completely the opposite
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As I was saying above it all depends on what you are looking to recreate.
 
Oct 12, 2007 at 9:22 PM Post #10 of 15
Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust2D /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I am very surprised that your K340 sounds better than your SR-404. The bass heavy K340 I sold, had a very annoying reverb issue, as I mentioned in the Stax thread. The midrange was superb, but that was about it. My SR-Lambda wiped the floor with them. The resolution, micro details tonal balance everything was better about SR-Lambda. The only things I liked K340 for were groovy guitar rock type of music and IDM, Jazz did sound good on them at all. Hell even my QP85 kicked their ass for Jazz. Another thing I did not like about the K340 was the soundstage, very in your head like and claustrophobic.

I want to hear a different version to see if i like it more....
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Ditto, big time. I like the K340, but I've sold all three pairs I had because I think even a Stax SR-5 crushes them easily. I'd maybe say the K340 have more virtues than you're allowing, but you're dead on about the flaws, including the creepy soundstage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust2D /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If you are at a Jazz performance in a small club, you can hear all the microdetail there is. Live music in a quite setting will provide you with tones of detail, I know I have been to many sets where you can hear the fret work and even the rustling of the shirt on the musicians.

Rock music in MSG is completely the opposite
icon10.gif
As I was saying above it all depends on what you are looking to recreate.



Once again, ditto. Live music in a good room is extremely detailed-- I think of the Scharoun building for the Berliner Philharmoniker, and especially the chamber music hall. Now, rock in a club is a different thing, but I see that as largely the flaw of bad PA equipment and sound engineers with a taste for deafness over clarity. Almost any time stadium or club amplification is in play, it's like strapping on some skullcandy headphones at earbleed volume. A friend of mine who did sound for shows during college could scarcely stand to go to shows set up by other people any more, too painfully aware of how they were massacring the band's sound.
 
Oct 12, 2007 at 10:07 PM Post #11 of 15
Quote:

Originally Posted by facelvega /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Ditto, big time. I like the K340, but I've sold all three pairs I had because I think even a Stax SR-5 crushes them easily. I'd maybe say the K340 have more virtues than you're allowing, but you're dead on about the flaws, including the creepy soundstage.


Don't get me wrong I liked my K340 a lot. They sounded very nice and had a lot of good things going for them: lots of micro detail info on all levels except bass, very lash and fluid midrange, layered soundstage and overall musicality. But the flaws, and nice money offer, and my quest for Stax pushed me to sell them. I like my SR-Lambda more, for me they did not have any major flaws that I could not live with. The comfort level of Stax is also way better.

I am hoping SR-303 improve on a few things over SR-Lambdas that I have and maybe provide a slightly different flavor of the same sound. SR-001MK2 on the other hand will be my office system, I bet they will get all the thing right as well. Now if I can get me some electrostatics floats.
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Oct 12, 2007 at 10:37 PM Post #12 of 15
Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust2D /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If you are at a Jazz performance in a small club, you can hear all the microdetail there is. Live music in a quite setting will provide you with tones of detail, I know I have been to many sets where you can hear the fret work and even the rustling of the shirt on the musicians.

Rock music in MSG is completely the opposite
icon10.gif
As I was saying above it all depends on what you are looking to recreate.



I was thinking of something like a large concert hall, especially in the middle and back rows. The hugeness of the acoustic space blends the sound together a little.

Fret sounds and shirt movements are not difficult to render, even for the slowest headphones. By "detail" mean something more like being able to render the smallest, most quiet sounds within a grouping of larger, louder sounds. In my experience, it doesn't take a particularly high-end, or even good headphone to do this.

A nice experiment to do is to have a very low and and very high end headphone with you. Listen a song on the high-end one, and then again on the low-end one. All of the detail will still be there, if you've noticed it before on the high-end set. Kind of like how a camouflaged animal is obvious once you've found it.
 
Oct 12, 2007 at 10:53 PM Post #13 of 15
Quote:

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Fret sounds and shirt movements are not difficult to render, even for the slowest headphones. By "detail" mean something more like being able to render the smallest, most quiet sounds within a grouping of larger, louder sounds. In my experience, it doesn't take a particularly high-end, or even good headphone to do this.


I'd add that some kinds of drivers can do this kind of detail well, but lack other key elements of musicality and presentation. I have yet to hear an armature IEM that satisfies me on this front, though I don't deny their abilities with detail, separation, and airiness.
 
Oct 13, 2007 at 12:10 AM Post #14 of 15
As far as my K340 - it does sound rather different than the bass-heavy pair I heard. The bass-heavy pair had a tonal balance that was more reminiscent of the HD650 if anything, and it did not have the detail, instrument separation, or soundstage of my pair; it also didn't have anywhere near the treble extension. It's midrange was nice, but the bass was boomy and overwhelming.

Mine is very, very different. If I wasn't driving it out of a very warm and liquid amp with monstrous bass, it would sound Ety-like. It honestly sounds a lot like the SR-404 at times, it just doesn't have the SR-404's annoying midrange coloration, and it certainly doesn't have the SR-404's diffuse character.

So, I am convinced that there are different-sounding versions out there, though as to what actually causes that difference - be it fit, mechanical and electrical differences in driver design, or simply different condition and stages of deterioration - I have no idea.

There is a bit of a reverb thing going; it's not so much as a clear reverb as it is a "wet" quality to the sound; almost as if leading edges are very sharp but trailing edges are elongated and softened. It's not entirely realistic, but it's a very pretty coloration, and it's not severe by any means.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The funny thing is, real life music sounds just like this, or even worse if you are sitting further away from the source of the sound. In a real music setting, that kind of microdetail would almost never be audible. But it still sounds good, doesn't it?
smily_headphones1.gif



You raise an interesting point, with a lot of very interesting implications.

I do agree that this is how things sound when you're in a concert hall removed from the performers; high frequencies are attenuated by the time they reach your ears and microdetail is lost. In that sense, the HD600 is even more realistic in its presentation. This is also along the lines of what my recording engineer friend told me, who swears by the HD600 and claims that its slow impulse response is more realistic for its type or presentation.

But, when you're up on stage among the musicians, you don't lose that kind of microdetail unless there is a lot of uniform loud sound which drowns it out. Now, I was initially trained as a classical pianist before I had to abandon that path, so when I listen to music, I prefer a more forward system that makes me feel as if I'm at the instrument - because that is how I have been trained to hear music, and how I want to hear it in the first place. There, the highs aren't attenuated but hit you in the ear full force. You can easily hear - during the quieter moments anyway - musicians breathing, pages rustling, and from your own instrument you can hear the creaking of the keys and pedals, the reverberations of the strings, the smacking of the hammer and the muting of the string right afterwards. All of that I want to hear in a performance - even though I won't hear any of it from even several rows from the front.

But, there is a point at which a system stops being detailed and becomes hyperdetailed, and picks up a lot more than even what your ear can. Is this really natural?

And more importantly, do we really want a truly flat and realistic-sounding system?

Every record we play has been mastered, processed, and been through the digital grinder to the point that the actual content on it has very little to do with what went into the mic; a good recording engineer will master it so that on a typical system it sounds closer to live music, but we are hardly talking about the typical system here. Something truly flat and revealing will only sound truly live when the music is recorded to the same standard that the system is at - which will limit it to a very small amount of recordings. More often, it will be telling you exactly what has been done in the processing stage to make the recording sound more appealing on a typical system.

Honestly, if I had to choose between that, and a system that errs on the side of musicality, making more records sound listenable and enjoyable, then I'll take the latter, every time.

Then, a lot of my music is electronic, where you have abosolutely no genuine standard for comparison. There is no right and wrong, there is only what your system does to the sound. There, being hyperdetailed is good, and concerns like tonal balance, tone and tembre, and the like go right out of the window. It becomes more of a matter of preference than anything else. Here, said system that errs on the side of musicality will be exceptional.

The K340 is certainly more colored and more inaccurate than the HD600, but it is eminently more enjoyable on a broader selection of music.

As far as its speed goes though, I think its speed contributes to its realism, since it is not a laid-back headphone, and gives you more of an upfront presentation, where you would hear all of those tiny nuances
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Oct 13, 2007 at 12:33 AM Post #15 of 15
But, when you're up on stage among the musicians, you don't lose that kind of microdetail unless there is a lot of uniform loud sound which drowns it out. Now, I was initially trained as a classical pianist before I had to abandon that path, so when I listen to music, I prefer a more forward system that makes me feel as if I'm at the instrument - because that is how I have been trained to hear music, and how I want to hear it in the first place. There, the highs aren't attenuated but hit you in the ear full force. You can easily hear - during the quieter moments anyway - musicians breathing, pages rustling, and from your own instrument you can hear the creaking of the keys and pedals, the reverberations of the strings, the smacking of the hammer and the muting of the string right afterwards. All of that I want to hear in a performance - even though I won't hear any of it from even several rows from the front.[/quote]

Ah. I don't play any instruments, I just attend concerts, so I'm more used to the "row M sound" as it were.

Quote:

But, there is a point at which a system stops being detailed and becomes hyperdetailed, and picks up a lot more than even what your ear can. Is this really natural?


No.
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I'm sure many of the microphones used in modern recording are much more sensitive than the human auditory system, and have a much flatter response, too. In a real situation, your ear would never pick up as much detail as that fancy $500+ condenser microphone..

Quote:

And more importantly, do we really want a truly flat and realistic-sounding system?


No, coloration is good.
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Quote:

The K340 is certainly more colored and more inaccurate than the HD600, but it is eminently more enjoyable on a broader selection of music



Back on topic, I'm not sure if I really liked the K340, but I'll be able to hear it again at the Atlanta fall meet, so we'll see if a second chance will change my mind or not.
 

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