[dharmasteve]

Yes - they'd have to fully test each app under a variety of circumstances, and then they;'d have to continually retest every time the app is updated. And have you seen already just how many requests there are? Everyone has a favourite player or app. So all of a sudden the whitelist grows to 40-50 apps, and FiiO simply doesn't have the developers to keep everything updated.

Then what happens with a multitude of apps which they aren't controlling? Word gets out that they don't care, that they have poor quality and service. And everyone misses the point:

• The M9 runs on an Exynos chipset to provide longer life.
• The M9 is very fast as long as you use the apps which are created for it specifically, or ones they've tested and found to be suitable
• The M9 is not a full Android experience - it was never intended to be. FiiO stated it in their documentation, on their website, and on this forum. If you want full android and all the flexibility it offers, you bought the wrong device. But if you do want that plus the other features FiiO brings, you're going to need to pay a lot more for the product you're looking for.

The M9 wasn't ever intended to be a Swiss Army Knife of audio, and it is what it is. Personally I think its pretty good - but then I don't expect it to be something its not.

The M9 is a great little DAP, but I must disagree re FiiO. It is entirely possible for FiiO to have a new model where they work with their customers. In fact so many companies could collaborate with their customers more. Maybe you are OK with the way businesses work and the level of engagement with their customers. I am definitely not. I accept that most will agree with your model. I see it differently. Co-operation, the wish to benefit, the mutual understanding of business/customer dependency, and simply the wish to create happiness in customers is my starting point. I am openly a Buddhist so that is where I come from. If FiiO wanted to they could actually work more closely with their customers. Sadly the present worldwide business model does not want to do this. Hopefully young people will change the way the world is, including how businesses operate, on every level. Sadly I'm too old to see if my dream will come true, but here in the UK we can see how young people have had enough of the old ways. Lets rest in hope.

Regards

Steve

 

[Brooko]

So are you saying after every single update of Tidal, Qobuz, Spotify, Es File Explorer, Deezer, etc, Fiio are retesting the apps to make sure they're not going to cause issues that the previous versions didn't? No-one is asking anyone to be a beta tester and the number of apps on the whitelist is irrelevant. These are all established apps that have been around for significant period of time and that work on all other Android based devices. As I stated previously, the only reason Fiio have implemented the whitelist is because they've provided underpowered components in the M9 which is why they've also had to use an extremely customised and limited version of Android 7 and they need to make sure that any apps installed are not a security risk (because their version of Android 7 won't be getting any security updates) and won't cause conflicts with other installed apps or the user interface. And your statement about it being fast is factually incorrect. I have only got Fiio approved apps installed and removed those that I didn't require (for example the Korean and Chinese streaming services) and it is so sluggish that I can go and make a cup of tea in the time it takes to boot up and actually start playing music.

Of course they have to test. How often have you seen Tidal make an update which then turns out to cause issues with some devices. It happens all the time. Who in their right mind would risk 3rd party apps and not test. How many times have we seen Tidal play up on a FiiO device, see FiiO get blamed, and then later find out its happening on other brand devices too (ie it’s something Tidal changed).

And you’re correct about the whitelist. They made a BUSINESS choice to use the Exynos chip to provide the features they wanted and still get reasonable battery life. That’s why they introduced a whitelist. They told people they were doing it - yet people have bought the device and wonder why it’s not compatible with their app. Have people’s reading and comprehension skills really deteriorated so much?

And as far as the speed goes - I have one. Pure Music is really quick. Yes Spotify and Tidal are slower. But that is the whole reason for whitelisting. How many speed complaints would you see if they allowed half the apps people are asking for. And who mentioned boot times? Most Android devices I know are all slow boots. I was talking about app speed. And I am factually correct.

 

[Brooko]

The M9 is a great little DAP, but I must disagree re FiiO. It is entirely possible for FiiO to have a new model where they work with their customers. In fact so many companies could collaborate with their customers more. Maybe you are OK with the way businesses work and the level of engagement with their customers. I am definitely not. I accept that most will agree with your model. I see it differently. Co-operation, the wish to benefit , the mutual understanding of business/customer dependency, and simply the wish to create happiness in customers is my starting point. I am openly a Buddhist so that is where I come from. If FiiO wanted to they could actually work more closely with their customers. Sadly the present worldwide business model does not want to do this. Hopefully young people will change the way the world is, including how businesses operate, on every level. Sadly I'm too old to see if my dream will come true, but here in the UK we can see how young people have had enough of the old ways. Lets rest in hope.

Regards

Steve

I understand the sentiment Steve, and it would be wonderful. But in the business world, FiiO will have minimum standards they are aiming for. I work for a multi-billion dollar company, and we certainly do. Using a lot of unqualified people to beta test, when they will all have different ideas of what is acceptable disqualifies any real standards.

I’ve seen FiiO offer early betas of Pure Music for feedback, and that’s somewhat akin to what you’re suggesting. I think with other people’s apps it might be a bit risky though.

 

[dharmasteve]

I understand the sentiment Steve, and it would be wonderful. But in the business world, FiiO will have minimum standards they are aiming for. I work for a multi-billion dollar company, and we certainly do. Using a lot of unqualified people to beta test, when they will all have different ideas of what is acceptable disqualifies any real standards.

I’ve seen FiiO offer early betas of Pure Music for feedback, and that’s somewhat akin to what you’re suggesting. I think with other people’s apps it might be a bit risky though.

Whilst many apps will not work on the M9 some factually will. This is because some apps will have lower resource needs than even the white-listed apps. So some customers have asked for various and fairly logical additions to the white-list. Let's just address those. A podcast app, an audio book app. You are definitely right that many apps would be problematical for the M9. You are definitely wrong that there are not some apps that would work fine on the M9. It's about whether FiiO want to address their customers concerns and needs. They could if they developed a different attitude and changed their motivation. Yes they would have to apply funds and resourses but why not? FiiO could resolve some simple apps to add to the white-list. Make people happy FiiO. Happy is the point. By the way there is a guy on the M6 thread who has tested apps that do work. I tend to use the M6 as I prefer it's form factor. In fact it is my go to DAP.

 

[Typhoon1944]

Of course they have to test. How often have you seen Tidal make an update which then turns out to cause issues with some devices. It happens all the time. Who in their right mind would risk 3rd party apps and not test. How many times have we seen Tidal play up on a FiiO device, see FiiO get blamed, and then later find out its happening on other brand devices too (ie it’s something Tidal changed).

And you’re correct about the whitelist. They made a BUSINESS choice to use the Exynos chip to provide the features they wanted and still get reasonable battery life. That’s why they introduced a whitelist. They told people they were doing it - yet people have bought the device and wonder why it’s not compatible with their app. Have people’s reading and comprehension skills really deteriorated so much?

And as far as the speed goes - I have one. Pure Music is really quick. Yes Spotify and Tidal are slower. But that is the whole reason for whitelisting. How many speed complaints would you see if they allowed half the apps people are asking for. And who mentioned boot times? Most Android devices I know are all slow boots. I was talking about app speed. And I am factually correct.

How often have I seen Tidal make an update which causes issues with some devices? Never, and I've used it on several devices. The only time Tidal has caused issues for me is when the WiFi drops out, but I'm not getting into that discussion again. If Fiio don't have the resources to test every app, why do they allow customers to submit requests to have apps whitelisted? Why not just lock it down completely and say "That's what we're giving you and that's all"? People have purchased the device and found that Fiio are actively advising people to submit APKs to them for testing and then nothing happens.

To be honest I find your comments about people's reading and comprehension skills quite offensive. You may need to look at your own. No-one mentioned boot times, I simply mentioned them in the context of the general speed of the M9 and most apps in my experience other than Fiio Music are sluggish so I'll agree to disagree with your level factuality on that point. Congratulations to you for having a speedy device but plenty of people on the forums don't.

 

[dharmasteve]

Yeah - right. People complain when FiiO "supposedly" uses consumers to beta test their products, and now you want them to do it? A whole lot of unqualified people to beta test other people's software and declare it fit for their product. No thanks. Recipe for disaster. Who carries the can when the apps fall over. Oh - yeah - FiiO.

Its not Hubris, its called risk management. It's FiiO upping their game as far as service goes. I applaud it. Anyone who knows business should too.

Brooko I am sure you know business a hundred times better than I do. You have spent time in it and know it well I'm sure. There other things I know. My road has been different and it has as much validity and meaningfulness as yours, maybe with a little less dust in the eyes. Nevertheless I trust your opinions as an elder of Head-fi and appreciate your reviews. You do know what you are talking about no doubt, but other things may be more important in the long run.
Regards
Steve

 

[Brooko]

How often have I seen Tidal make an update which causes issues with some devices? Never, and I've used it on several devices. The only time Tidal has caused issues for me is when the WiFi drops out, but I'm not getting into that discussion again. If Fiio don't have the resources to test every app, why do they allow customers to submit requests to have apps whitelisted? Why not just lock it down completely and say "That's what we're giving you and that's all"? People have purchased the device and found that Fiio are actively advising people to submit APKs to them for testing and then nothing happens.

To be honest I find your comments about people's reading and comprehension skills quite offensive. You may need to look at your own. No-one mentioned boot times, I simply mentioned them in the context of the general speed of the M9 and most apps in my experience other than Fiio Music are sluggish so I'll agree to disagree with your level factuality on that point. Congratulations to you for having a speedy device but plenty of people on the forums don't.

Disengaging. No one mentioned boot times huh?

Direct quote .....

I have only got Fiio approved apps installed and removed those that I didn't require (for example the Korean and Chinese streaming services) and it is so sluggish that I can go and make a cup of tea in the time it takes to boot up and actually start playing music.

And I’ve seen the Tidal issues. One broke both the X5iii and also Cayin equivalent for a while some time ago. It was part of the reason I switched to Spotify.

I can see that we’re not going to end up being civil to each other - so I’ll stop responding to you. Suggest you do same.

 

[morndewey]

Can someone explain to me how iems can be advertised as hi def if frequency range is 20hz-20khz? If I’m not mistaken, hi res music surpasses 20khz and extends below 20hz. Would there be any point to hi res files on a dap/iem which couldn’t extend beyond 20/20 freq range?

 

[Brooko]

There’s no point to hi-res full stop. Your hearing doesn’t extend that far, so why bother?

 

[gLer]

Can someone explain to me how iems can be advertised as hi def if frequency range is 20hz-20khz? If I’m not mistaken, hi res music surpasses 20khz and extends below 20hz. Would there be any point to hi res files on a dap/iem which couldn’t extend beyond 20/20 freq range?

To be Hi-Res certified, the IEM needs to be able to reproduce frequencies up to 40khz. If it can’t, it’s not Hi-Res and can’t be certified. The sticker means nothing - you can buy excellent shoes with a Nike logo - doesn’t make them a Nike

As for the merits of Hi-Res audio, I believe quality has far more to do with the mastering and playback of the file than the FR range or bitrate. A badly mastered ‘Hi-Res’ file will always sound much worse than a well mastered Redbook file. That said, you should always try to source well mastered lossless files for playback to ensure the highest possible quality, as lossy (even 320k lossy) does take a hit with good playback hardware.

 

[Typhoon1944]

Disengaging. No one mentioned boot times huh?

Direct quote .....



And I’ve seen the Tidal issues. One broke both the X5iii and also Cayin equivalent for a while some time ago. It was part of the reason I switched to Spotify.

I can see that we’re not going to end up being civil to each other - so I’ll stop responding to you. Suggest you do same.

Disengaging? Not sure what you mean there.

I meant no-one mentioned boot times prior to me saying it in the context of overall speed of the M9 and other than you, most people seemed to get that point. I couldn't care less whether you've seen the Tidal issues or not. I haven't. What I have seen is every single app I use except Fiio Music being extremely sluggish to the point of being unusable and these are apps that have supposedly been approved and tested by Fiio. You have "corrected" my assumption that Fiio don't test updates to whitelisted apps therefore they should run in a satisfactory manner and should not "break" hardware. If you want me to be really pedantic I will amend my previous comment and say that instead of being able to make a cup of tea in the time it takes me to start listening to music, I could wait for the kettle to boil and put the tea bag in the cup while I wait for an app to start whereas I could boil the kettle, put the teabag in the cup, fill the cup, stir it and finally dispose of the bag if I was taking boot times into account as well. I'm pretty sure everyone knows I'm not being serious here but, just for you, let me be clear I don't make any kind of beverage while I wait for my M9 to boot up, open an app and start playing music.

Oh and I'm being perfectly civil thanks but please feel free to stop responding.

 

[fish1050]

Wow getting a little hostile in here!

I seriously considered the M9 for quite awhile but ended up getting an M7 demo model at great price instead. Given the controversy over the M9 handling whitelisted apps very glad I did not needing wifi and happy enough with the Fiio Music Player. Seeing the superior hardware on the M11 makes me think that the best thing to do for me is keep my M7 and wait to see how much better the hardware is on the next round of M series releases from Fiio like M9K etc. Clearly the Exynos 7270 just isn't up to the task especially with the limited RAM to run many apps well. Now that it has been discontinued Fiio is free to explore more powerful options in the future. Would love to see a model with M11 hardware in a more portable package and a more reasonable price.

 

[morndewey]

There’s no point to hi-res full stop. Your hearing doesn’t extend that far, so why bother?

A response I expected but did not desire.

 

[morndewey]

To be Hi-Res certified, the IEM needs to be able to reproduce frequencies up to 40khz. If it can’t, it’s not Hi-Res and can’t be certified. The sticker means nothing - you can buy excellent shoes with a Nike logo - doesn’t make them a Nike

As for the merits of Hi-Res audio, I believe quality has far more to do with the mastering and playback of the file than the FR range or bitrate. A badly mastered ‘Hi-Res’ file will always sound much worse than a well mastered Redbook file. That said, you should always try to source well mastered lossless files for playback to ensure the highest possible quality, as lossy (even 320k lossy) does take a hit with good playback hardware.

Thank you for the meaningful reply.

Other than comparative listening, do you determine mastering quality otherwise?

 

[Brooko]

A response I expected but did not desire.

OK - I'll elaborate. The reason for using higher sampling resolution in recording is to be able to move distortion into frequencies we can't hear (noise shaping). The higher bit rate is for allowing extra room to the noise floor for multi-track recordings. So it is very useful for recording - but less so for actual playback. Because of the limitations to our hearing, redbook will fully articulate all we are capable of hearing.

You could make the argument that if its recorded in 24/96 - why not play it back in the same format. And I guess the real answer is that while you could, why would you? After all - it results in larger file sizes for no real benefit. And for recording 24/96 is as high as you'd want to go. Beyond that can actually harm the music - link (worth reading). The guy who wrote this also developed the ogg and vorbis codecs (he is a real expert)

The real measure of quality is in the dynamic range of the recording, and the actual mastering. Thats why a lossy copy of (eg aac256) of a well mastered album, will always sound better than a high res recording of a poorly mastered album. Its not the container - its the mastering which dictates the quality. People get fixated on the larger numbers - they don't mean what people think they mean (bigger is not always better)

A good way to look at different mastering of the same albums is the dynamic range database (http://dr.loudness-war.info/). While it won't always tell you the best master, generally the ones with good dynamic range tend to be better mastered. If you want an idea of what decent mastering looks like - do a search on Steven Wilson. For an example of badly mastered albums - do the same search for Coldplay