FIIO first cassette player CP13 is officially released!

[FiiO Willson]

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There are already many "wishlist" posted earlier, the following are my 2 dozen cents. Even if too late for CP15, hopefully do-able for CP17:

1) Half speed playback
I'm OK if it's never get done. Waaaay too unlikely. How many people still keep their half speed tape recorded from mere dictaphone? Even if they do, the quality may not really require a FIIO player, but...
There were super cassette decks capable of half speed recording in high quality in late 70s/early 80s, intended for long recording of long radio show and music program, before Philips went "how dare you!!" and effectly killed them all.
There's no way playbck can be as good as on the decks it recorded on, but it may be good to have new option other than Unobtonium decks, now where do we get half speed recorded tape for new users?

...or, it doesn't have to be half speed recorded, there's a good purpose for half speed sllroooow pllaaaaybhaaaacchk which I'll get to later.

2) Bass option and tape selector
Already mentioned in many earlier posts, I know. The thing is...there used to be Walkmans with tape selector and bass enhancement, there used to be TCS recorders do half speed, but there's NO model have tape selector and half speed together since lost early super decks.
CP17 may be the ONE chance to bring them together at long last, along with bass enhance option, for...

3) "A middle level player for tape presevation"
It's the true purpose of this whole post and the reason why to have them together. Between hard-to-obtain-and-repair classics like Walkman and flooding cheapos, we finally have W.A.R. and CP13. The same way should go for something proper between TASCAM USB prosumer hi-res-less decks and cheapo all-in-one USB/memory card cassette "digitizer."

I personally don't think there's need for a memory card slot or USB port for CP17. Memory card slot with circuits for proper audio resolution output would obviously take up too much space, there's reason why those cheapo "all-in-one" tiny digitizer doesn't do anything beyond MP3.

No USB, no Windows/Android/Mac compati-worries. Anyone has a bit knowledge and basic quality demand would likely go for a good recorder on receiving end instead of "uselessly convenient" card slot that can't even output hi-res, which seemingly overkill for cassette tape, but it's always better to post-process in higher-than-need resolution then down-convert to relevent res.

And what bass-enhance thing has to do with "tape presevation"? Isn't it defeating purpose of faithful "preservation"?
Answer: half speed capture. That's what aforementioned "slow playback" is really for.

This is what I've been doing for a while: playback normal speed tapes in SONY TCS-600 half speed (one of the few can do that in stereo), into SONY PCM-A10 recorder at 96khz, higher frquency is pulled down a whole octave, away from where most players can't handle well, and then basic cleanup and resume speed in Audacity.
Result: airy and better extended high frequency, a bit attenuated overall volume (about -3db), and ...(you guessed it)... much reduced lower frequency slammed into wall of frequency response curve.

It's overall good performance ratio. For recordings which doesn't have much bass to begin with, it's pretty much done. Maybe some mild EQ on bass, but not too much as it can easily get muddy.

When necessary, I do another "normal speed" take, reduce its speed to match unaltered "half speed" take, painstaking matching them via "Change Speed and Pitch", multiple undo then redo to avoid distortions pile-up, then do low-pass filter to the slowed down "normal speed" track at around 100hz-200hz (or half the figure since speed is yet to be resumed here), where "micro misalignment" would be mostly inaudible. Mix and render, restore speed, a well bass compensated track is done. If there's still segments with audible misalignmemt, just edit and patch with previous takes.

By now you should be able to tell how bass enhance can be handy if it can be activated along side half speed transfer. Type switch and bass enhancement seems pretty much possible by now, but it would be a pity to just leave out half speed alone.
(Or can I get half speed by risking replacing 4.2V battery with 2.1V one?)

My initial idea for "2 speed takes" process was to have CP13, clearly better one for normal speed take (also as an excuse to give my support), and merge with half speed take from TCS-600. Then I figure their speed are never gonna match and dropped the idea, thought that a single TCS-600 would at least guarentee exactly half of its own normal speed. Boy I was so wrong, 51% speed is closer to reality and not even very consistence. Later as I got better at working on speed adjustment and matching, CP13 is back on menu.

Now I'm already on the way of getting a CP13. Though CP15 is already kinda "on the way," but I figure the more income from CP13, the better chance CP15 and CP17 can really come to be.

What's more: Fiio is currently the only one that promised customized new head for future model (I'm yet to find any similar premise from either We Are Rewind or Panda), relying on sales of CP13 so the supplier would agree to do. If it works out, it would mean a new product line of improved new head, which likely means a new choice for ALL tape player makers, future models for professional / prosumer use would no longer be bound by the only head currently available.

It's all about investing a new possibility.

Thank you very much for your long reply, what a great project!
I have some questions for you：
1) Half speed playback-------Is this one really in demand? Since the CP15 is a brushless motor, this would be very easy for us to do, but I've heard very few suggestions like this before, and I assume very few people should be using it

2）Also due to language differences I may not understand you very well.
On the CP13, it is true that the azimuth is not as well adjusted as on digital signal devices, which is a common problem with this movement

On the CP15, we will use heads with no azimuth adjustment, in fact this is Sony's previous experience, I think it does have some use, but it's still worse than digital equipment.

 

[mab1376]

Thank you very much for your long reply, what a great project!
I have some questions for you：
1) Half speed playback-------Is this one really in demand? Since the CP15 is a brushless motor, this would be very easy for us to do, but I've heard very few suggestions like this before, and I assume very few people should be using it

2）Also due to language differences I may not understand you very well.
On the CP13, it is true that the azimuth is not as well adjusted as on digital signal devices, which is a common problem with this movement

On the CP15, we will use heads with no azimuth adjustment, in fact this is Sony's previous experience, I think it does have some use, but it's still worse than digital equipment.

Have you considered some form of DSP hiss reduction?

 

[parthabhatta]

Thank you very much for your long reply, what a great project!
I have some questions for you：
1) Half speed playback-------Is this one really in demand? Since the CP15 is a brushless motor, this would be very easy for us to do, but I've heard very few suggestions like this before, and I assume very few people should be using it

2）Also due to language differences I may not understand you very well.
On the CP13, it is true that the azimuth is not as well adjusted as on digital signal devices, which is a common problem with this movement

On the CP15, we will use heads with no azimuth adjustment, in fact this is Sony's previous experience, I think it does have some use, but it's still worse than digital equipment.

Regarding half speed playback I have seen one in the prime days of personal cassette recorders, but that device came with recording facility. So a normal cassette would have double the capacity of recorded tracks if one intended to. But it was mainly intended for specialised use, I thought, not for mainstream hifi. Secondly, most of us, including me will listen to standard pre recorded cassettes or mix tapes recorded in standard machines, so half speed won't have any benefit for us. Secondly, presuming that CP15 is not going to come with recording (as it appears), the feature is more likely to remain unused for bulk of the users.
However, with due regards to @Kaiboo99, he might be able to explain better.

Secondly, regarding fixed azimuth heads, I never knew that this was implemented in some of the then Sony or other decks. But now I know. Anyways, its pros and cons will remain. No problem for us who don't want to play with azimuth, but for users who wish to give azimuth setting a try, it is a setback.
I always wondered why no manual azimuth adjustment was ever deployed (barring a few advanced Nakamichis) in a mainstream decks or players by attaching a "volume like" knob so that users can play with that as and when required. In countries like India, in the prime days of cassette, the azimuths highly and drastically varied from cassettes to cassettes sold pre-recorded. But with no easy azimuth adjustments and not wanting to disturb the default setting, I never played with azimuth setting and always compromised thereby forced to listen to muffled highs.

BTW, requesting @FiiO Wilson, if he can throw some light on CP15, regarding its appearance etc and how it is expected to vary from CP13 externally, just to keep us excited. Afterall, not much time is left from the deadline of Nov / Dec 2025.

 

[Kaiboo99]

Thank you very much for your long reply, what a great project!
I have some questions for you：
1) Half speed playback-------Is this one really in demand? Since the CP15 is a brushless motor, this would be very easy for us to do, but I've heard very few suggestions like this before, and I assume very few people should be using it

2）Also due to language differences I may not understand you very well.
On the CP13, it is true that the azimuth is not as well adjusted as on digital signal devices, which is a common problem with this movement

On the CP15, we will use heads with no azimuth adjustment, in fact this is Sony's previous experience, I think it does have some use, but it's still worse than digital equipment.

Maybe overlength brought about some confusion. I'll try to simplify as much as possible:
~Admittingly, demands for half speed playback is too small so I said it's ok if it's never done, but coupling with "capturing normal speed tape in half speed slow playback for better result", I figure there might be a slight better chance for a bit wider application of such function, which can potentially be promoted as "function specially for tape preservation".

~Plus "capturing via slow playback" tends to bring formerly LF too low into lower end where frequency response curve usually rolled-down quite a bit, which would be hassle to correct afterward, and it made me kinda wish only if SONY bothered to put bass enhance things in their TCS recorders which I slow-playbacked with. I figured with bass strengthened in slow playback beforehand, LF may be closer to right amount when speed resumed.

~So it leads to "Hey! Half speed function in TCS Recorders and Bass enhance in Walkman never got together under SONY! Maybe this is the ONE and only chance!"
(and I believe there's at least more demand for half speed playback than "ELCaset" thing)

BTW, requesting @FiiO Wilson, if he can throw some light on CP15, regarding its appearance etc and how it is expected to vary from CP13 externally, just to keep us excited. Afterall, not much time is left from the deadline of Nov / Dec 2025.

@parthabhatta
I recall he said Nov. 2025 at best/earlist possible, so it's not really solid deadline.

 

[FiiO Willson]

Maybe overlength brought about some confusion. I'll try to simplify as much as possible:
~Admittingly, demands for half speed playback is too small so I said it's ok if it's never done, but coupling with "capturing normal speed tape in half speed slow playback for better result", I figure there might be a slight better chance for a bit wider application of such function, which can potentially be promoted as "function specially for tape preservation".

~Plus "capturing via slow playback" tends to bring formerly LF too low into lower end where frequency response curve usually rolled-down quite a bit, which would be hassle to correct afterward, and it made me kinda wish only if SONY bothered to put bass enhance things in their TCS recorders which I slow-playbacked with. I figured with bass strengthened in slow playback beforehand, LF may be closer to right amount when speed resumed.

~So it leads to "Hey! Half speed function in TCS Recorders and Bass enhance in Walkman never got together under SONY! Maybe this is the ONE and only chance!"
(and I believe there's at least more demand for half speed playback than "ELCaset" thing)


@parthabhatta
I recall he said Nov. 2025 at best/earlist possible, so it's not really solid deadline.

Thanks for your details!
Though for us, it's really quite simple, as the CP15's movement is digitally controlled and can theoretically be adjusted to whatever speed you need.

But I think it's better that half-speed playback is not open on the CP15, because the CP15 is competitive enough, and we need to do a good job with the existing features of the product, and that's what's most important

 

[parthabhatta]

Found that MAXELL has come out with a cassette player MXCP-P100 for Japanese market. Very limited detail available on the net but a few pictures are available.
Good to see that some reputed companies are trying to bring back the format following Fiio's success with CP13.

 

[Kaiboo99]

Thanks for your details!
Though for us, it's really quite simple, as the CP15's movement is digitally controlled and can theoretically be adjusted to whatever speed you need.

But I think it's better that half-speed playback is not open on the CP15, because the CP15 is competitive enough, and we need to do a good job with the existing features of the product, and that's what's most important

Thank you! It's okay to not include half speed since one simply cannot include every weirdo idea into production.
At least there are other half speed option out there I can use in cooperation with CP13

Recently I found some of my TCS-600 half-speed recording contain a bit more HF detail, which conflict with my previous measurement of CP13.
Then I remembered that some discussion in Mainland suggest that CP13's performance is highly "tape dependence", so I analyze transferred tracks a bit more.
The ones which TCS got mild edge over CP13 came from second generation tape (with some edge wrinkle, yes, one of the three I worked in my earlier post), while CP13 has FULL advantage with commercial tape, which fits forementioned discussion well.
It's possible that a) edge wrinkled tapes behave slightly "more" different in half speed therefore affect signal, b) play norm speed in half result in different "relation" to EQ circuit, and second-generation tapes, with natively slight uneven EQ due to generational distortion, may got different "emphasizing", make some HF a bit more protrudent.
In such few case, CP13 "mainbody" + TCS "tweeter" works beautifully, after a painful speed matching (and I find myself getting used to it )

Anyway, it's good to know that neither players are wasted and they make good pairing to each other

After CP13 damage got fixed, I'll try if impedance adaptor can be helpful in volume control when capturing from CP13's head-amp output. Initially I thought "what's the point to have a few dozen ohm placed before a recorder with several dozen kilo-ohm of input impedance", until I found such adaptors are not just another resistor in series.

Another idea for upcoming model but not about player function: test tapes are hard to come by nowaday, as CP13 came with a demo tape in Mainland, maybe next demo tapes for CP15 or CP17 can come with a track or two of testing signal. If xxx-hertz is hard to do with equips nowaday, sweep tone and white noise still can be very helpful

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CP13 is often described as "at least better than modern cheapo junks" and that makes false impression that CP13 is merely acceptable because compare to what everybody else are nowaday.

But back in heyday of Walkman, even more junky wannabe were everywhere, physically non-valuable in every aspect and just flushed away both physically and from memory with passage of time, as if there were nothing but golden classic models back in golden age.

CP13 can easily and effortlessly beat cheapo junks nowaday, of course it can wipe floor with cheapo junks back then.

So, no, it's not like "it can't go against Golden Age Walkman but at least makes a good entry model now", it's more like "it's an excellent entry model now, and still better than just an entry model back then"

Even if you can get a proper functioning and masterfully serviced "Anniversary Memorial Edition" premium Walkman, do you DARE to fast-wear it with every tape you got?? Do you even just risk it outdoor for the sake of it for real?? (Look, mom! It sounds more stable than CP13 when I ride my dirt bike with it!!)

Delicate antique is to be used sparsely and with extra care, CP13 as a quality everyday listening device, actually HELPS all Walkmans and their owners. It's plain wrong to use Walkman as excuse to trash CP13!

I am also looking forward to get a high end Walkman. I, as a severe brand-name OCD, think that European "Walkman Classic" and "Walkman Jazz" series chrome tapes should receive transfer and preservation from one of those premium Walkman, and recorded with top-line SONY DSD recorder, through SONY approved Kimbre Kables...