[ClieOS]

Hi all,

Sorry if my question is too dumb. I am new to Dac/Amp topic. I am thinking of buying either BTR5 or Fiio E10K. Both are in same price range (almost). I love to have Bluetooth capability and not to have to deal with a lot of wires all the time but I am just afraid of losing quality because of it. Is BTR5 gonna give me same sound quality as E10K. One caveat is that, none of my devices (laptop/phone) are at the moment BT 5.0. Will that downgrade the performance of BTR5 even further.

I thank a lot the experts in advance!

It has nothing to do with whether your laptop has BT5.0 or not, as BT5.0 and BT4.2 have exactly the same spec on wireless audio transmission The problem is, most built-in BT on PC only supports basic codec such as SBC and AAC, some (*rare) might have aptX. To get a really decent SQ, you will need aptX-HD. You can buy USB dongle that add aptX-HD to your PC, but that's gonna add on to the cost.This means you will likely take a hit on SQ when using PC built-in BT as source. Smartphone however is a different story, as most of them should have aptX-HD as well as LDAC supported, unless it is a particularly old model.

 

[Hinomotocho]

Hi all,

Sorry if my question is too dumb. I am new to Dac/Amp topic. I am thinking of buying either BTR5 or Fiio E10K. Both are in same price range (almost). I love to have Bluetooth capability and not to have to deal with a lot of wires all the time but I am just afraid of losing quality because of it. Is BTR5 gonna give me same sound quality as E10K. One caveat is that, none of my devices (laptop/phone) are at the moment BT 5.0. Will that downgrade the performance of BTR5 even further.

I thank a lot the experts in advance!

If you were to use your phone I think you would be happy with the sound quality. I prefer cables to get the best quality and eliminate any interruption but for convenience sometimes I use bluetooth and it surprises me how good it sounds. If using android USB Audio Player or Neutron is very good, for iPhone I don't know.
Perhaps people's experience with Bluetooth range varies but I don't think the BTR5 has the longest range, but if it's close to the source it will be fine.

 

[Chris Kaoss]

If you want to go with bluetooth, the BTR5 is the way to go.
The E10K is a USB/Coax Dac and doesn't has bluetooth.
You can use the BTR5 as an USB-Dac too.
This is what i do wired to my Surface Pro.

The benefit of the E10K is the "big" jog-wheel for volume adjustment and the bass boost option.
It also has 3 times the power of the BTR5 single ended.
While the BTR5 balanced is on par power wise.

Don't hesitate with bluetooth 5.0.
That's only necessary for power saving and maybe stability of the connection.
It doesn't affect the audio codecs that much.
While the bluetooth on the Btr5 is great, it depends a lot of the source device.
As i said earlier in this thread, bluetooth connection with my Surface is a mess, especially when my bluetooth mouse Logitech Master MX is used at the same time. Then i've had a lot of drop outs in music playback.

Best way to pair the BTR5 with a pc/laptop is via USB connection, ime.

 

[michaelgordon]

So a question i plugged the BTR5 into my laptop to use as a USB DAC as ive not done that before and the volume increased quite substantially over the usb dac from the phone. What would the reason be for this? Is the laptop providing more power or better sound source? Ive just purchased a seperate DAC & AMP and wondering if i will actually need them. Will sound quality improve with the dedicated equipment?

 

[hmscott]

So a question i plugged the BTR5 into my laptop to use as a USB DAC as ive not done that before and the volume increased quite substantially over the usb dac from the phone. What would the reason be for this? Is the laptop providing more power or better sound source? Ive just purchased a seperate DAC & AMP and wondering if i will actually need them. Will sound quality improve with the dedicated equipment?

The BTR5 maintains volume settings for BT / USB DAC mode independently - set them both to the same "number" then they should be close together - don't forget to set the Gain to the same setting too.

On your PC / phone set the output volume to 100%, control the volume with the BTR5 - same for BT and USB DAC mode. The best signal to noise result is from 100% output.

Especially if your phone / PC have different % source output settings will you hear a volumetric difference.

If you have Apt-x / LDAC the BT can sound as good as USB DAC mode, but I prefer wired (USB DAC mode) too.

 

[Hooga]

Quick question: is the Volume Pot on the BTR5 a logarithmic or linear control ?

 

[Kentajalli]

Quick question: is the Volume Pot on the BTR5 a logarithmic or linear control ?

it is a log.
volume controls are always log.
and it is digital I believe, analog ones are expensive.

 

[Hooga]

it is a log.
volume controls are always log.
and it is digital I believe, analog ones are expensive.

teach me: what's the difference between analog and digital ?

 

[Kentajalli]

teach me: what's the difference between analog and digital ?

digital is when the data is processed before it goes to dac, to alter the volume. you get precise control and channel balance, and it is cheap and simple (similar to player's volume control), what you sacrifice is resolution . technically speaking you loose bits , meaning a 16bit track, can become 10 or even less bits.
Analog is when the signal is reduced after dac has finished with it.
it is done by a variable resistor (pot) or a switched resistance ladder, which can be controlled by logic circuit .
this way resolution technically remains intact, but it is not as precise, and maintaining channel balance difficult .
good switched ladders are very good indeed, but not cheap.

 

[Hooga]

digital is when the data is processed before it goes to dac, to alter the volume. you get precise control and channel balance, and it is cheap and simple (similar to player's volume control), what you sacrifice is resolution . technically speaking you loose bits , meaning a 16bit track, can become 10 or even less bits.
Analog is when the signal is reduced after dac has finished with it.
it is done by a variable resistor (pot) or a switched resistance ladder, which can be controlled by logic circuit .
this way resolution technically remains intact, but it is not as precise, and maintaining channel balance difficult .
good switched ladders are very good indeed, but not cheap.

thank you !

 

[fytize]

@FiiO when connecting the BTR5 to a macbook pro to use as a USB-DAC, does the BTR5 only support 44.1kHz/16bit? On the BTR5 display, it always show 44.1kHz--no matter the source. Also, you can't change the rate in the audio MIDI setup in the settings. What is causing this limitation?

 

[Karkasi]

If you want to go with bluetooth, the BTR5 is the way to go.
The E10K is a USB/Coax Dac and doesn't has bluetooth.
You can use the BTR5 as an USB-Dac too.
This is what i do wired to my Surface Pro.

The benefit of the E10K is the "big" jog-wheel for volume adjustment and the bass boost option.
It also has 3 times the power of the BTR5 single ended.
While the BTR5 balanced is on par power wise.

Don't hesitate with bluetooth 5.0.
That's only necessary for power saving and maybe stability of the connection.
It doesn't affect the audio codecs that much.
While the bluetooth on the Btr5 is great, it depends a lot of the source device.
As i said earlier in this thread, bluetooth connection with my Surface is a mess, especially when my bluetooth mouse Logitech Master MX is used at the same time. Then i've had a lot of drop outs in music playback.

Best way to pair the BTR5 with a pc/laptop is via USB connection, ime.

Thank you and thank all for the valuable comments.

 

[lucasd]

it is a log.
volume controls are always log.
and it is digital I believe, analog ones are expensive.

I think every saber dac has variable gain amplifier.
So control volume is analog on BTR5 and you have two different gain setting (low and high). Whether it is log it depends on design. The same goes for pots in amplifiers, the designer can choose linear, log or some hybrid.

However if you lower volume on phone/ computer it will be digital and degrade sound. Hence not recommended!

 

[Kentajalli]

http://www.esstech.com/index.php/download_file/view/70/267/
this is ESS article on digital vs analog volume controls.
ESS incorporate digital volume control, but since the DAC is a 32 bit then volume control is more precise.
indeed volume control on Neutron music player, is 64 bit software! so it is even better.
but purists always go for analog . there are switched array resistor volume controls on a chip (logic controlled) with true 24 bit performance, but are expensive.
BTW linear volume control does not work.
Volume control is Log , always.
that is how our hearing works.

 

[Hooga]

I think every saber dac has variable gain amplifier.
So control volume is analog on BTR5 and you have two different gain setting (low and high). Whether it is log it depends on design. The same goes for pots in amplifiers, the designer can choose linear, log or some hybrid.

However if you lower volume on phone/ computer it will be digital and degrade sound. Hence not recommended!

Thank you.
So (to see if I understood properly) the best practice with BTR5 is: keep source volume pot on its Max position, and only use BTR5's volume pot to adjust sound pressure.
This way we have no degradation at the input level, nor at the output as ES-builtin volume is digital analog. (???)
Correct?

@Kentajalli by the way this is ESS9218P spec sheet, where they mention

64-bit accumulator & 32-bit processing

⦁ Distortion free signal processing

so let me guess: volume (gain/attenuation) management inside the BTR5 is managed via ESS built-in features, which is indeed digital but with 64bit space available to make sure rounding is taken into account up to 32bit input data (which is its max decodind capacity anyway) ?