External Dac Please Explain This Further for Me

[Hershon2000]

There was a really excellent post in a thread below by Hugz on DACs which I've put below & I would appreciate it if someone could clarify some things for
me, using their best guestimate. I currently get the best sound from my PD-59 Pioneer CD player which I love by connecting it by optic cable to my Denon 3801 A/V Receiver which has a Real 24 bit, 96 kHz DAC & it currently sounds best connected this way. The sound by this connection is superior to any $750 -1500 CD players connected by analog to the Denon. Anyway, my question is If I use say a 24 192 DAC external DAC, IE I connected my CD player to the external DAC & my external DACS output is connected by analog cables to my Denon 3801 Receiver, will it automatically sound better or does it depend on the DAC player & how it intereacts with my system- i.e., it won't automatically sound better? Would appreciate anyones clairification for me on this. Thanks


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From Hugz:

"A DAC is a digital to analogue convertor. What it does is converts digital music (the data on cds) into analogue music (audio signal which can be amplified or played by speakers).

If sound is going via a optical cable of a coax cable then it means the sound is digital. If it's going by RCA or speaker cable then it means the sound is analogue.

Most CD players will have a DAC inside then, so you could connect the CD player straight to the receiver (which will work as an amplifier) by RCA (analogue). In this setup, the CD player takes the digital off the cd, converts it to analogue, sends it to the receiver which amplifies it and sends it to the speakers to be heard.

Alternatively, many receivers also have DACs in them. If you connected your CD player to your receiver via coax or optical (digital) then the receiver woul dbe acting as a DAC. In this situation the CD player takes the digital off the cd, sends the digital sound to the receiver which converts it to analogue, amplifies it and sends it to the speakers to be heard.

The reason that people use stand-alone DACs like the zhaolu is because they are higher quality DACs than the one inside your receiver or your CD player. The quality of the DAC is very important to a sound setup.

To use an external dac, then, you dont want to have your CD player or your receiver to be acting as a DAC. You want your cd player just to be taking the digital sound off the disc, and you want your receiver just to amplify.

Therefore, what you want is to have the cd player connect to the zhaolu via digital, and the zhaolu to connect to the receiver via analogue (rca). As you can see from this, the sound went into the zhaolu as digital and went out as analogue. In this setup the cd player takes the digital sound off the cd, sends it to the zhaolu which converts it to analogue, which sends it to the receiver which amplifies it and sends it to the speakers to be heard

I hope this makes sense to you and you can now see the role that each component plays in the setup.

To answer your original question directly... You dont need to have ditial input on your receiver because the zhaolu will convert the sound to analogue prior to the receiver and send it via analogue.. so the reveiver only needs to be able to accept analogue"

 

[StevieDvd]

From what you've posted yo have understood the essence of why a DAC is used. In your case the dac in the CD player is not as good as the one in your a/v receiver (based on your impressions). You would always use the better dac to do the conversion to analog.

So you question really boils down to whether there is a better dac then your a/v receiver - which the answer to is probably yes. But better at what price and how much better is perhaps more apt?

Unless someone here has you a/v receiver and owns or has tried other dacs it will be a little difficult to give you a simple answer.

Oddly I did see a post over at avforums where the owner preferred their dvd player internal dac over the Denon 3801 - he's a member here too so maybe he'll jump in with a comment.

 

[Hershon2000]

After reading SteveDVD's post, I should have been more to the point & asked outright, is there any way to know if: 1. An external Dac will be better then your receivers Dac without actually hearing it first? IE, if your receivers DAC is 24 96, will a 24 192 DAC automatically sound better when connected to your receiver? 2. Will external DAC's let's say they're all 24 192 all sound the same when I connect them to my receiver or will there still be differences & if so, how do I know which will sound best on my system or is it all pot luck?

 

[bifcake]

Let me see if I can take a crack at this:

Your receiver serves the following functions in a single box:

1. DAC
2. Analog preamp
3. Amplifier
4. Tuner

You mentioned that using the built-in DAC of your receiver and your Pioneer CD player as a transport, sounds better than a $1500 CD player connected to your receiver via analog inputs. This leads me to believe that your receivers analog line stage (preamplifier section) isn't really all that great. If that's the case, purchasing an external DAC and connecting it to your receiver via the analog line stage will not make things sound any better. When you connect your CD player to the receiver via a digital input and use your receiver's DAC, you're effectively bypassing the receiver's analog preamp section. I think that if you want to take advantage of the external DACs or better CD players, you would have to chuck your receiver in lieu of a better preamp and amp combo.

 

[Hershon2000]

Thanks that actually does make alot sense & may save me some money as I like the receiver.

 

[3lusiv3]

Maybe that Pioneer CD player is a bargain?

 

[bifcake]

It's possible, but highly unlikely. In my experience, the $1000+ players take the CD experience to another level of fidelity.

 

[utep10]

I have no idea how receivers are wired so:

If he outputs the analog signal out of a standalone CDP, he would
wire it into the receiver via the analog preamp inputs. The signal
then goes through the analog preamp->amp->speaker.

If he outputs the optical out of the Pioneer, that goes into the
optical in on the receiver ->DAC ->preamp(?)->amp->speaker.

My question is, in this last scenario, won't the signal at some point,
go through the analog preamp section of the receiver as well?

I assumed this but bifcake's explanation makes me question my assumption.



Quote:

Originally Posted by bifcake Let me see if I can take a crack at this: Your receiver serves the following functions in a single box: 1. DAC 2. Analog preamp 3. Amplifier 4. Tuner You mentioned that using the built-in DAC of your receiver and your Pioneer CD player as a transport, sounds better than a $1500 CD player connected to your receiver via analog inputs. This leads me to believe that your receivers analog line stage (preamplifier section) isn't really all that great. If that's the case, purchasing an external DAC and connecting it to your receiver via the analog line stage will not make things sound any better. When you connect your CD player to the receiver via a digital input and use your receiver's DAC, you're effectively bypassing the receiver's analog preamp section. I think that if you want to take advantage of the external DACs or better CD players, you would have to chuck your receiver in lieu of a better preamp and amp combo.

 

[bifcake]

If you're connecting your source to your receiver via a digital link, you're using your receiver as a DAC. In that scenario, the receiver bypasses analog switching circuit (preamp line stage) and sends the signal straight to the amplifier section after converting it to analog.

So, in this case, the signal path would be as follows: DVD -> receiver DAC section -> Amp section

 

[00940]

The signal coming from the DAC inside the receiver needs to be controlled and switched. In 99% of the case, the output of the integrated DAC will be dealt with just as another analog input, passing through the exact same circuitry as any direct analog input.

 

[bifcake]

That's not the case in the Denon 5700 receiver, which I have and I assume that's not the case in the Denon 3802 receiver. Digital signal processing is handled separately from the analog signal in the Denon receivers. Unlike most receivers, the Denons do not digitize the analog input signal. The analog circuits are handled discreetly. Hence, once the digital signal is processed and converted to analog, it is sent directly to the amplifier section without going through an analog switching stage.

With most other receivers, the analog signal is digitized, processed and reconverted back to analog. Hence analog and digital signals are handled in the same manner. This is not the case with Denons.

 

[Garbz]

It's early in the morning so forgive me for posting without reading the entire thread. You need to look at a DAC as just another part in the audio chain, and moreover realise that your cdplayer has a DAC internally as well. From then on it all comes down to the quality of each part and there are a few points to be made on this.

Firstly a DAC is like any other piece of equipment. It can be good or bad, over priced or a bargin. Just like I personally find certain CDplayers not worth the money spent on their construction, and others significantly better then players twice their price.

Using an external DAC does not mean a CDPlayer can be skimped on. Yes the external DAC will improve sound, and many people here call their DAC a source but I follow a different view. For me a DAC is only an upgrade, a temporary improvment, and a system shouldn't be built from the ground up incorperating a DAC for reasons I'll explain in a second. What I mean by the CDPlayer can't be skimped on is that the quality of the CDPlayer still changes the DAC's sound via jitter characteristics, and high end cdplayers typically have better digital outputs where they are included. Though again this follows the rules of the first point.

The reason I will only consider a DAC an upgrade is because a DAC has every electrical disadvantage. What I mean by this is how the digital data is transported around. When it leaves the cdplayer it is converter from one form to another, in the process the ever critical clock is multiplexed into the signal. The DAC is now no longer getting a lovely clean digital feed but instead significant efforts must be made to recover the original data, the original clock etc. This negatively effects sound and is a reason the best DAC won't ever sound as good as the best CDPlayer at a given price. HOWEVER, note that with a DAC you still need a CDPlayer so the price goes a bit higher, and still all of this abides by the first point I made that both gems and lemons exist in every given price range.

In my view to design a system around a DAC is ludicrous and certainly in my experience has yielded worse results for the money then designing around a CDPlayer of choice. That said being short on money, and having had a CDPlayer I do currently run an external DACs

My advice to you is if you are trying to improve your sound. Pick a price range and listen to all the DACs, and all the CDPlayers you can afford against your receiver's DAC and see if you can beat it.

 

[bifcake]

Wow! I think you just completely confused the poor guy! I don't think he's looking to build a system around a DAC. He's just asking if getting an external DAC will improve the sound of his current setup. He tried $1500 players going through his receiver's analog inputs and they didn't sound any better than his Pioneer player going through the receiver's internal DAC.

My contention is that the analog stage on his receiver isn't capable of delivering the kind of fidelity that would allow an external DAC or a higher quality CD players shine through.

That's really the crux of the issue.

 

[Garbz]

OMG lol I completely missed that option! And yes I did crap on quite a bit didn't I.

But I'll compress anything I ever recomend on this forum down to 2 points.
1. Try all options not only the recomended ones, and definitly try more than one.
2. Try before you buy. Don't put money down unless you have a money back guarantee.