[mulveling]

Looking for your experiences & thoughts on the upper-range Ortofon and Benz lines - specifically interested in experience with the Ortofon Kontrapunkt series, the Wood Body (and up) carts from Benz, thoughts on their new S line, experiences with upgrading in the Benz line, or with moving from one line to another.

Currently I'm most interested in the Kontrapunkt c and the Benz Wood Body S L (could possibly conceive of moving up further though). The mass of my arm (22 grams Fidelity Research FR64fx) makes the Jubilee perhaps a touch too compliant to be optimal in my system, unfortunately. The upper-line Benz carts (> 10g) might also be a bit too heavy & compliant as well. An output of 0.3-0.4 mV is ideal.

Have had a Benz Glider L2 on my Sota Star for the past 2 years. I love the Glider's sonics and ease of use - it's made me a vinyl convert for life. Most importantly, the cart is far more musical than the digital sources I've had. The noise floor is ok - I've heard vinyl sound quieter (though it's hard to judge based on the variations between records), but it's not a problem. I'd love to drop the noise down further by getting a stylus that delves deeper into the groove (perhaps the new Benz line's Gyger S stylus?), but not if it sacrifices an ounce of musicality. I am no "perfect record" collector, and never will be. I have plenty of slightly-to-fairly hairy records in my collection, and they are loved as equals alongside the more pristine pucks, at least until I run into a better copy of that album

The main impetus towards the renewed upgrade itch, is my new speakers: the Tannoy Kensington SE. They're wonderful - and as excellent as the Glider is, I fear I may be holding the speakers back a bit. If there's any extra groove information, air, enhanced silkiness, and/or impact to be had (though I will NOT sacrificing any musicality), then it would be silly to not invest in the appropriate cartridge, after the pile I dropped on those speakers!

I'd like to stick with my local Tannoy/analog dealer on this one, and the main lines carried there are the Ortofon and Benz lines. No used carts, either (and normally I'm a huge fan of the used audio gear market). Unfortunately that eliminates some excellent lines from contention, like the Dynavectors - especially that oh-so-tantalizing model of theirs with alnico magnets (like my Tannoys).

What I'm hearing about Ortofon so far, is that "they're great", and that "they're very neutral". Apparently more neutral than the Benz, which I'm not entirely sure I'd dig. The Glider is already plenty clean-sounding enough for my tastes, tonally (really quite lovely). Apparently the Glider adds a bit of "honey", especially to the mid bass - to which I responded "really?" - I couldn't tell for sure. I do tend to favor gear that has a touch or warmth and an organic nature to it - hence my dilemma. I don't want to take a chance on Ortofon and then wish I'd stuck with the Benz line. I also don't want to stretch up the Benz line and then feel like the improvements over the Glider were minute! The Glider is still humming perfectly and should have a lot of life left in it, so this is certainly not an upgrade of necessity (like there is such a thing, hah!). The Glider would be moved to a second table, not traded in.

Help me out, or send me racing towards the furthest depths of confusion, with your valued and appreciated experiences. The power is yours!

 

[rosgr63]

Hi,
I can only comment on the Ortofon reliability, I am running my Ortofon on a Technics SL1700 since 1976 and is still fine!

 

[Skylab]

I have, and have had for several years, a Benz-Micro Wood L2. And I *LOVE* it. I had started with the ACE, which I also liked, but I got the upgrade bug, and I traded up, which was both a good deal (got the L2 for 800 instead of 1200), and it was a very worthy upgrade.

The L2 has that just amazing quality of incredible smoothness, coupled with startling retrieval of detail. The Benz, on my Denon DP-59L and through my Cary/Audio Electronics phono pre, absolutely smokes my digital players. The L2 also delivers a blackness of background that startles audiophiles who are not familiar with Vinyl's capabilities. And while having a gorgeous midrange, it still delivers amazing bass impact, weight, and depth, and is very extended on top, without being even the least bit flashy.

Negatives? If you are someone who likes your treble spoon fed to you with a sledgehammer, then get a Grado - the Benz will not be for you. But if you like your sound nuanced and smooth, and lush without being syrupy, then the Benz is a great cartridge.

I am sorry I can't comment on the S - I plan to get a a Woos L S, or may upgrade to a Ruby S, when my L2 needs replacing, probably late this year.

 

[mulveling]

Thanks Skylab! Your notes on the Wood L2 precisely mirror what I've loved about the Glider L2 over the last 2 years. At this point, I'm leaning towards staying in the Benz line - why take the risk of straying from what I know I love? I also have the Benz PP-1 T9 phono stage, which is a no-fuss match for any of their carts (Ortofons tend to like a much lower impedance and will require use of parallel resistors). Then the question becomes - Wood LS, or stretch a bit more for the Ref S Copper?

The trade in value of my Glider towards a Ref S Copper in particular is VERY appealing - it's near the old full retail value I paid! Benz is clearly trying to encourage the serious 2+ step upgrades (and doing a damn fine job of it). On the other hand, that would prevent the passing down of the still-superb Glider to my 2nd table...hmm, decisions

 

[fuzzy]

I also have the Benz pp-1 new version and used to have the old one. After the old blew up they replaced it for free. At that point it was many years old and cleanings had taken off most of the writings. I started with the Reference in the 90s and past a couple others am now at the Ebony. The carts have subly and continuesly evolved closer to perfection over the years. Neutrality is a sign of good engineering imho and even with the ebony with all its detail and precision there still is the warmth of vinyl that no digital can provide. For me never a question which is better but rather the fact that I have a very large record collection including many one can not buy on CD. Its been years since I ran Ortofon other then as a dJ cart. So not much help there. I think you can't go wrong with the Benz at any level. I aquired a old Reference for cheap on ebay for a backup and it was hardly used, clean and dirt cheap, what a deal. If I don't want to take chances I use that. I also play lots of less then perfect records but they all ge through my record cleaner machiene before they see the Benz. So much fun. I spilled more dough on carts and preamps than most anything else, lol, in that hunt for perfection with no regrets.

 

[Skylab]

Fuzzy brings up a good point. Mulveling, I assume with a nice vinyl rig that you have that you are already using a wet-vacuum record cleaning machine. But if my some chance you are not, I *strongly* recommend spending the $500 for a VPI 16.5 before upgrading your cartridge. You will get much more sonic benefit from wet-vacuum cleaning your records than any cartridge upgrade will give you.

But if you already have one and are doing this now, then I say go for the Ref S Copper! I am for sure going for the Ruby 3 when I can swing it

 

[robinje]

I am in a similar position, as I am also running a SOTA turntable (Nova) with an Origin Live Encounter tonearm. I've been liking an Ortofon 2M Black, but I just bought a new phono stage that has LOMC capability. I am curious about the Kontrapunkt B and Jubilee. These both seem well-reviewed and have been proven over time as being reall good cartridges. Others on my radar screen are the Dynavector 17D3 and Lyra Argo-i. I haven't really thought about Benz cartridges, but I'll look into them as well. It's really a crapshoot buying a cartridge, as it seems there are so many conflicting opinions on the internet! I have no dealer of any high end cartridges near me, so buying online is my only option.

 

[mulveling]

Thanks fuzzy. At this point, my vinyl collection vastly exceeds digital, so there's no going back to digital for me either. Nice score on the cheap Ref! Maybe I should keep a lookout on an old one to trade-in...
I tried just a few phono stages, but the PP-1 (have both T8 and T9) were the clear favorites with my Glider. They're nice stages - from here, I think it's far more important to focus on the cart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif Fuzzy brings up a good point. Mulveling, I assume with a nice vinyl rig that you have that you are already using a wet-vacuum record cleaning machine. But if my some chance you are not, I *strongly* recommend spending the $500 for a VPI 16.5 before upgrading your cartridge. You will get much more sonic benefit from wet-vacuum cleaning your records than any cartridge upgrade will give you. But if you already have one and are doing this now, then I say go for the Ref S Copper! I am for sure going for the Ruby 3 when I can swing it

Thanks again Skylab - yep, I've been using a VPI 16.5 w/ vinyl zyme religiously from (almost) day one. I agree totally - a good cleaner should be there before a cart upgrade. Your suggestion is noted - getting the Ref and being done for another couple years (hopefully!) is looking more and more appealing...

Quote:

Originally Posted by robinje /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am in a similar position, as I am also running a SOTA turntable (Nova) with an Origin Live Encounter tonearm. I've been liking an Ortofon 2M Black, but I just bought a new phono stage that has LOMC capability. I am curious about the Kontrapunkt B and Jubilee. These both seem well-reviewed and have been proven over time as being reall good cartridges. Others on my radar screen are the Dynavector 17D3 and Lyra Argo-i. I haven't really thought about Benz cartridges, but I'll look into them as well. It's really a crapshoot buying a cartridge, as it seems there are so many conflicting opinions on the internet! I have no dealer of any high end cartridges near me, so buying online is my only option.

I've got a local friend with a 17D3 on a VPI Scoutmaster - it's a very good sounding cart, but both he and the local dealer (whom I trust completely) have had a devil of a time getting it setup on that arm. It's got a very very short diamond cantilever. Apparently it's the oddball in the Dynavector lineup, and I've heard the dealer state that it would do much better on a heavier arm - like my old Fidelity Research - than the 9" VPI its's been on. Again, good sounding cart - but may be a bear to setup

That friend is currently saving up for the Jubilee, which he's (rightfully) excited about.

 

[Skylab]

VPI tables arm great, but that amp can be fussy. My Dad has an Aries, and bought a Grado Statement, but that was a disaster on the VPI, ended up trading it in on a Benz Wood, since he has heard how good mine sounds, and has never been happier

 

[fuzzy]

The record cleaner is a must. The records sound better even if they looked nice and clean before washing.

The cart matters more then the preamp. I have extensively compared PP-1 preamp to Ear 324 and Aestetix IO MK2 with vols, I still own them all as its hard to let go they all have strenghts that I would hate to loose. The PP-1 can hold its own which is testimonly to engineering and the fact that "size" matters. But the best can be had from focusing all on the cart in a correct tonearm.

I do all the adjusting myself. No dealer has seen my turntables in 30 years. Actually I used to set'um up for my friends too (more rare these days) . A couple of them will not have anyone else touch their record players. I know of one friends high end player that I have pampered for 20 years. Turntables last longer then CD players...

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzzy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I do all the adjusting myself. No dealer has seen my turntables in 30 years. Actually I used to set'um up for my friends too (more rare these days) .

Same here. I have a couple different protractors, and a digital scale to measure tracking force. After adjusting VTI, azimuth, overhang, and tracking force, the rest of the tuning is done by ear.

 

[Donald North]

I still own and used for many years an Ortofon MC3000 MkII cartridge. It features the ceramic body and Replicant 100 stylus. It was very neutral and detailed. In direct comparison to a Benz L0.4, it bettered the Benz, which sounded more euphonic of the two. I have not tried the latest Ortofons to tell how they fare.

My current cartridge is an Audio-Technica AT-OC9MLII. This cartridge sounds lively with incredible extension. Most importantly it tracks all of my rock records without audible distortion. I've never heard ANY moving coil cartridge track as well as this A-T.

 

[Skylab]

The OC9MLII is a cult favorite of many inmates of the Vinyl Asylum. Never tried it though.

IBack when I was in my low-output MC experimental phase I tried an Ortofon (can't remember which anymore but was in the $500 price range), as a Dynavector. I preferred the ACE to both of those +/- $500 cartridges, and that is what led me to the Wood L2.

But cartridges, like all transducers, really do impact people differently.

[off-topic edit; that was my 10,000th post! yipes!]

 

[mulveling]

Hmm, audio can be so damned difficult to understand at times...

I'm sitting here tonight listening to much great music. Certainly, most of it is not via "audiophile" genres nor recordings - same as with most of my preferred fare. The vast majority of it has been supremely enjoyable.

I started with few sides on the SOTA/Benz Glider/PP-1 setup: Falco, Kiss, Queen, Bowie. Then, on to my recently-ish acquired 1/4" reel tapes via a Pioneer RT-1020 for: Leo Sayer, Atlanta Rhythm Section, Loggins & Messina, Styx. These reels are all old needle-drops on Maxell UD tapes.

Both the tapes and LPs sound excellent overall - well, in general music enjoyment has taken a big step forward since I got my Tannoy Kensington SE speakers locked in - however, on closer inspection there are some striking differences between these media. Obviously, I've averaged impressions across multiple albums, though I do have some of the same albums on both media:

* My vinyl setup has better dynamics, and a sharper maximum "attack"
* My vinyl setup is at times "splashy" even slightly "harsh" in the upper registers. The reel tapes are comparatively smoother and absolutely non-fatiguing.
* The reels feature a substantially lower vinyl surface noise as compared to my own vinyl setup. Now, I realize I have some fairly "hairy" records in my collection, even after a thorough cleaning. Still, these reel needledrops, almost without exception, sound nearly pristine! Only the very occasional low-level crackle is there to confirm that these really came from records - sometimes it's very difficult to tell! I really wish I knew which cartridge was used to record these needledrops, but that shall remain an unknown.

BOTH setups can truly boogie and do PRaT like no digital I've yet heard...same with the naturality to the tone...so there are no temptations to look back towards digital, here

So, with the massive enjoyment these needledrop reels render, and with their significantly different presentation than my Benz Glider, I'm left wondering whether it's time for a different direction in cartridges. That's been leading me back towards thinking of the Kontrapunkt c, tonight

 

[Gazza]

Funny, I own the Kontrapunkt C and is simply a mind-blowingly good cartridge. Not romantic in the least and it won't give you that warm vinyl sound but if you want detail and an iron-fisted control of the music then the Kontra C is the best anywhere near its price.

Keep in mind I listen to Heavy Metal 90-95% of the time and prefer a fast, heavy-hitting sound.