Explain tubes to me...
Jan 8, 2004 at 5:40 AM Post #16 of 31
Welly Wu,

As this Soundstage article says, "Solid state is a lot easier to live with, but many would argue that the price you pay for the livability is less emotional involvement in the music."

That's why some people are so passionate about tube amps -- tubes provide them with a warm, deep, rich, and natural sound that most solid-state amps cannot match. Their focus isn't usually on quantifiable measurements such as THD. What they're looking for is something that goes beyond numbers.

D.
 
Jan 8, 2004 at 5:52 AM Post #17 of 31
Personally, I don't care a whit about measurements, but solid state usually seems to be more accurate to the recorded signal. It fares better in measurements. On the other hand, tubes sound more like reality -- more like natural music. Whether this is truer to the recording is a moot point -- it sounds more like reality, which is why many people prefer it. The only thing I trust is my ears (and those of people whose opinions I know are like my own), and my ears have almost always preferred tube gear.
 
Jan 8, 2004 at 7:50 AM Post #19 of 31
Thank you all for your explanations. It definitely sounds nice; maybe I'll save up for a MAD EAR+ headphone amplifier to mate with my RS-1s. One thing that still sticks out in my mind is what is the difference between NOS tubes and tubes that are recently manufactured? Other than price, what is the sound difference?
 
Jan 8, 2004 at 3:39 PM Post #20 of 31
I tend to believe that most natural sounding gear is the most accurate, I think we tend to put far too much stock into measurements and forget about listening to the music. I have loved tube gear from my first listen, some do it better than others but isn't that true of anything?
 
Jan 8, 2004 at 4:12 PM Post #21 of 31
Quote:

why do you love tubes in your amplifiers and source components?


Even with my limited experience of tubed devices (5 amps), my feeling is it's hard to make a generalization about how individual tube gear will sound, just as it's hard to make generalizations about how solid state gear will sound. It's impossible to conclude that "all tube gear is better (or I will prefer it) than solid state", or vice-versa. After I experienced my first piece of tubed gear, I though I'd never go back to solid state. then I heard the Samuels HR-2, and it changed my mind about the ss state sound. That said, IME, tubes can exhibit greater "musicality" (an almost useless term, I know) than some solid state. Music is more lush, more romantic, more involving, more natural, and more inviting with a more flowing, less jagged and etched sound-- it's more "analog-y". Some will argue that tubes impose false colorations, or "euphony" to the sound where ss designs are somehow magically "neutral". IMO, ss devices are every bit as "colored" as a tube gear; the audio signal is passing through as many or more devices/components in a solid state design than it does in a tube design, and all that stuff has a "sound" and a signature that is imposed on the music. We won't really know what "neutral" is until the day comes when audio signals can be beamed directly into our brains through the thin air.

I think people today come from the perspective of people raised on solid state, so that sounds normal and neutral to them. People raised on tubes find the tube sound more real and true, that's the filter they've viewed their music through over the years. Same holds true with vinyl-- to them, the argument that "CD digital is inherently more neutral than vinyl" is untrue, they will cite digital's brittle, metallic, gariny, etched sound and say it's not natural or realistic to them. Quote:

Why has the fascination / passion endured till 2004?


Because most audiophiles are older people (in general, I'm talking about Stereophile-type readers) who were raised on tube gear. Also because tubes offer some things that ss can't, it's own distinct fingerprint that can be very appealing. But tubes generally are only useful in certain applications due to their power restrictions, they can't be made into mega-watt 7-channel systems at anywhere near a reasonable cost level. Some speaker loads just demand so much power that tube amps need not apply. many of the speaker systems designed for tube gear are specially made to be driven by flea-powered tubes. In an application like a headphone amp, tube's limited power output can be a non-issue.
Quote:

Why are there so many varieties and why do people pay big bucks for tubes? These things will eventually wear out, no? So, why keep re-investing?


Tubes were used in lots of gear, not just audio and these different kinds of gear had different requirements, hence the need for different tubes with different specs/capabilities. NOS tubes (New Old Stock) are sought after by audiophiles because the older, Western European and American-made tubes were simply superior to what you can buy today from former eastern Bloc countries, Russia and China. Almost all the great Western manufacturers of tubes went the way of the dodo bird after the advent of the transistor. Now, caches of those old tubes (from the 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s) stockpiled by the US gov't in case of war, are worth their weight in gold. Obviously, there will never be any more of these great old tubes made, and once the current supply dries up, that's it. Prices have continued to sky-rocket on the best-regarded of the NOS tubes.

Mark
 
Jan 8, 2004 at 4:46 PM Post #22 of 31
Quote:

Originally posted by elnero
I think we tend to put far too much stock into measurements and forget about listening to the music.


Very True. It's all about the Music; and the enjoyment of Listening.
 
Jan 8, 2004 at 6:47 PM Post #23 of 31
To get a little into Q theory, transistors are not ONLY switches, although they can act as one. A transistor is comprised of three legs: base, emitter, and collector. The input signal comes in on one leg, and out another. The leg not used is the common leg and the design takes on that name: common base, common emitter, common collector. Not all transistors uses are for voltage or signal amplification. Each of these three designs gives you something different in gain: one gives voltage gain, one current, and one power.

There are two types of transistors: NPN and PNP. This represents the type of substrate used to make the transistor. N is negative, P is positive. The order is: emitter, base, collector. Therefore you bias a NPN transistor with some or relative nagative on the emitter, positive on the base and the most positive on the collector. The opposite it true for a PNP, some positive on the emitter, negative on the base, and most negative on the collector. This is proper transistor biasing - a forward biased emitter-base junction, and reverse biased collector-base junction. It won't work otherwise.

A transistor will only shutoff or clip when driven beyond it's linear portion for amplifying. Each transistor has a very linear part to it where its gain will be close to linear, but beyond that region it gets VERY unlinear.

Most of what I have read here is just generalizations. Designers can now make them both take advantage of the best characteristics of the other, and form a sweet and rich sounding "tube-like" sound from transistors, or an accurate or "solid-state" sound from tubes. The design team from PS Audio made their solid state amp sound very tube-like, even though it was built using JFETs.
 
Jan 8, 2004 at 7:23 PM Post #24 of 31
Markl has many good points, but I don't think it is entirely fair to say that tubes are only still popular with people raised on them. I chose my first tube amp after head to head listening comparison of comparably priced products. It blew them away in terms of make the music sound more natural. I listened to string quartets performed by people I had heard play the same material in person. The tube amp that I listened to sounded much more real than the solid state stuff I heard. This was the first time I had heard tubes, and I am 25 years old. At the time, I had no loyalty to either camp.
 
Jan 8, 2004 at 7:35 PM Post #25 of 31
stuartr,
I agree, I didn't mean to make it sound like a hard and fast rule, just a generalization (I like tubes and I'm 34, but if I wasn't *heavily* into the audio hobby I wouldn't have tried them, nor known anything about them). Tubes and tube products nowadays are not only esoteric products, not sold in your local electronics superstore, but they are made by small specialty brands with little distribution and generally speaking, high price tags. The only people who know that tube gear exists or is still being made (or know that most gear they see in the stores is technically "solid-state"), and would bother shelling out for a piece of tube gear are *typically* going to be heavy duty audiophiles with a budget, and that implies older adults to me. It's not really about being in one camp or another when you don't even know there are camps to be in! Your typical Absolute Sound and Stereophile reader is an older adult who's been in the hobby a while. That's all I'm trying to say!
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Jan 8, 2004 at 9:08 PM Post #26 of 31
I grew up with tubes and vinyl. I will probably always prefer that sound to solid state...
 
Jan 8, 2004 at 10:49 PM Post #27 of 31
ServingEcuador's right on about solid state theory. They can act as switches if they have a very small linear region but by controlling how we fabricate the transistor and by changing the type that we make they can be used for a huge variety of applications.

One of the other reasons I think that tubes are still alive are due to guitar amps, and lucky us MG Headers the 12AX7 is a popular tube in guitar amps.
 
Jan 8, 2004 at 11:49 PM Post #28 of 31
It's hard to reply to a general question without making generalizations.
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Quote:

One of the other reasons I think that tubes are still alive are due to guitar amps, and lucky us MG Headers the 12AX7 is a popular tube in guitar amps.


There are plenty of military applications too.
Tubes are resistant to EMPs.
(EMP - electromagnetic pulse. The part of a nuke blast that fries transistors)

A lot of audiophiles, (whether they know it or not), seem to like a bit of "color" in their sound.
Tubes (among other things) seem to give them this.

(another generalization!
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Jan 9, 2004 at 8:22 PM Post #29 of 31
I just found out that the professor for my analog electronics course (just started this week), Dr. Lloyd Pepperd, is the owner/designer of the Mapletree line of amplifiers...

As a professior of solid state electronics at one of canada's major research universities (Queen's), he is an expert on solid state amplifier design, yet in his spare time, he develops tube amps....

So i guess vaccum tubes do have merit for not just "snake oil" audiophiles, but even expert "electrical engineers" (99% of the time you see that word in an audio board, its an insult
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I'd love to discuss this topic with him, and lsarn more about the sceince behind audiophile equipment design... and maybe get a discount on an EAR+ kit while i'm at it
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Jan 9, 2004 at 10:52 PM Post #30 of 31
Yes I have an Ear+ and enjoy it. Both his amp and Dr. Lloyd indicate that he obviously knows his stuff. As for building amps as his student, I've seen pics on his website that seemed to show student workshops where they are having fun building tube amps as well.

Since I know you build amps yourself, and maybe studying EE and learning under this guy, it would be stupid not to bring it up with him and maybe show him what you've made before too.
 

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