[Zalithian]

Yeah really guys. Chill out and stay on topic. The whole person who started this hasn't even said anything.

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif 4. You tell me I forgot to read about age factors. This wasn't about age, so I didn't mention it. It's about you telling me I can't hear 16Hz because I quote, "humans can't hear below 20Hz". If you had said, "Most humans can't hear below 20Hz we wouldn't be having this argument. I prove that statement isn't true and you tell me, well at least adults can't hear that low. You still haven't proven that I can't hear 16hz, or that it isn't possible. Find me a study that says it isn't possible to keep the ability to hear 16Hz.

My statement about the human ear is accurate and conforms to most of the consensus out there. Search human audible range and 20-20Khz will pop up. Most places will say the human audible range is 20-20Khz. They don't qualify it with "most humans".

For example,

Physics Tutorial 2: The Physics of Hearing — Reviews and News from Audioholics
"The human ear is sensitive to sound waves in the frequency range from about 20 to 20,000 Hz, which is called the audible range. You may have heard the term sound range, but sound waves can also be above audible range (ultrasonic) and below audible range (infrasonic). An audiophile is only interested in sound waves in the audible range."


The Human Ear and Hearing
"AUDIBLE RANGE

The ear can hear sounds ranging from 20Hz to 20kHz. It is most sensitive to frequencies between 500Hz and 4000Hz, which corresponds almost exactly to the speech band. Note that this threshold increases significantly with lower frequencies, an important point that will be the subject of more detailed discussion later in the course.



Your statement that All humans have a temperature of 98.6 degrees F is bogus. But I didn't want to argue semantics. Its a waste of time.
Normal Body Temperature - Human Body Temperature

I proved infrasound with more than enough data. Sound below 20Hz is defined as infrasound because it is below the human hearing threshold. I provided more than enough data to support that claim. There is a lot of research on it.

Infrasound research doesn't say "in most human hearing threshold" it plainly states inaudible frequencies below 20Hz.


Quote:

5. Then you turn an argument about me hearing 16Hz into one about me being biased towards NE-7M. Anyone who reads my reviews might also say I am biased towards Westone 3, so why didn't I claim my $399 IEM can play down to 16Hz? Why would I pick a $50 IEM to use an my example? It's because that is what I heard.

I said it is more likely the NE-7M has harmonic distortion. You decided to wrongly pick an argument on semantics. Which is why the discussion went into tangents. Leading me to believe that you are trying to defend the NE-7M.

I get it now that your are claiming your hearing is better than the average human. I'll take your word for it and accept it. My mistake.


Quote:

6. You say the IEM I used were inaccurate. I know what harmonics are vs primary tones. I have Michael Knowles "Binks Audio Test CD" in WAVE files on my computer, so if there is anything inaccurate it could also be the wave files, or DAC or amp. I haven't heard anyone report the CD to be faulty.

Didn't you just say the Westone 3 didn't have the same problem? I assumed you used the same source. Why would I jump to the conclusion the source might have a problem?

Quote:

So, back to the original argument. YOU DO NOT NEED HUGE DRIVERS TO MOVE HUGE AMOUNTS OF AIR TO MAKE BASS. All you have to do is get the air inside the ear canal to move, and smaller volumes moving at the right frequency will do the job.

Fair enough. I'll concede that point. I'll also concede that the NE-7M can produce 16Hz and that you can hear it.

I think I have said all I have to about this topic.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

16Hz is the lowest note on the pipe organ's 32 foot pipe for a reason.

 

[skeptic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oarnura /img/forum/go_quote.gif Calling some one misleading is not ad hominem, which BTW you called tacticalpenguin first without provocation. Calling some one self-aggrandizing is ad hominem. I think you are the one that needs to read my reply to you carefully. .... Why bring up a full size phone as an example of an honest phone when we are discussing IEMs? By making that comparison you implicitly implied as such. .... Not in tiny earphones. There is a reason why subwoofers used 10"-18" transducers. .... You were responding to my post. Nothing in my post talked about Hip-Hop or Choral music. So try and keep context. .... Again besides the point. Go read the thread again. I didn't claim that the er-6i produced deep bass. If I did please be kind enough to point it out. .... I found your use of DT880 to contrast with an IEM objectionable and dubious. .... I really am not interested in a long drawn out discussion. So I apologize if I offended you.

1) I suppose we will have to agree to disagree as far as the my position that many transducers are capable of reproducing reasonably accurate bass, as is heard in the bass section of choral recordings. I have been involved in choral music for more than 25 years, and have sung professionally in major metropolitan opera choruses, as well as in a number of film scores, and in multiple international choral competitions. Perhaps my standards are too forgiving for your tastes when it comes to transducers, but I find that many speakers and headphones do a satisfactory job of reproducing choral music, including the basses (the section to which I belong). The Er-6i's, however, don't cut it for me, thus the basis for my election to post in this thread.

2) My statement "this is false" really was referencing the quote I included from tacticalpenguin which suggested that only unsophisticated bass heads would have anything to complain about with respect to the Er-6i's. Perhaps my choice to break up the paragraph caused confusion here, but in any event, there is no reason to argue about this. The context of this thread is the sq of the Er-6i's, and as to that, apparently you do not disagree with me that they are incapable of producing deep bass.

3) I also have to take issue with your definition of what is or is not "ad hominem." This logical fallacy is commonly defined as follows: "An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject." Per this well settled definition, by repeatedly calling me misleading, dubious, and disingenuous, you did indeed engage in repeated ad hominem attacks. Why attempt to deny it? I'm happy to concede I did the same with respect to tacticalpenguin.

4) I appreciate the apology. Likewise, I apologize if I offended you with my suggestion in the ne-7m thread that there might be something wrong with your pair. I did not doubt the validity of your criticism. Having just ordered a pair myself, I simply hoped that this might be a possible explanation... You seem confident that it is not, and I do not contest that conclusion. Hopefully my ears will still like them better than yours did.

I similarly recognize that I have invested far too much time and energy in this dispute. If you'd like to have the last word on the topic, it's all yours.

My next post in this thread won't be until my Ne-7m's show up, burn in, and I have something to say in response to the OP on that topic by way of comparison. (edit: ok - I lied, I had to comment on HA's pipe organ factoid

)

 

[skeptic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif 16Hz is the lowest note on the pipe organ's 32 foot pipe for a reason.

Great fact! And I can personally attest that the 32 foot pipe can be both heard and felt - having grown up listening to, and singing along with, this bad boy every Sunday throughout my youth: http://www.ppc.net/music/PPC%20Organ...%20(11-03).pdf

 

[TacticalPenguin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif big post, #30

Thanks for conveniently ignoring everything he said about the experiment with 700 people using 17hz tones and concluding that they couldn't hear it but it still affected them.

For the Nuforce NE-7M
Frequency Response: 20 Hz-22 KHz
Nuforce, Inc
Nuforce themselves say it won't reproduce 16hz, and usually specs are stretched if they aren't accurate. Did it make some sort of noise that you heard? I won't try to argue that, but I will argue that it was most likely not real 16hz sound. For that to be true, both the common consensus that adults can't hear 16hz and that the NE-7M won't reproduce that sound would have to be wrong.

There is no denying that trying to compare a DT880 to the ER 6i is absolutely ridiculous for two reasons - the DT880 costs four times as much and the DT880 is a fullsized headphone. He is looking for an IEM and he is not looking to spend nearly $300 on whatever he buys, so bringing in the DT880 is completely irrelevant.

This graph

shows etymotic's measurement of the low frequencies and extends completely flat down to about 24hz. Headroom also measured the ER 6 and their frequency response line is also completely flat from a few khz down to the low 20's. Their graph is no longer available now that they have redone all of their measurements but have not yet remeasured the etymotic IEMs but I'm sure someone else can attest to this fact.

I can hear things in bass-heavy music that I never heard before with my marshmallows (oh but don't they make more bass? shouldn't this be wrong?) and I don't know what the hell you're talking about when you say there's no bass, because there is NOTHING I don't hear with them that I do hear with any other phone. Perhaps you should try the small biflange eartips and inserting them a bit deep, that makes them sound excellent to me.

Send me the name of a song that has some detail you think will be absent and I'll have a listen and describe whatever part of the song it is you think I won't be able to hear properly to you if you want.

Now, let's go back to trying to help the OP.
He enjoys bass but also wants excellent isolation. Nothing will beat the ER 6i at isolation and that is fact.
Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif The T400 isolate the most with about 20-25 db cut, followed by the Shure E2c silicone and vinyl tips with maybe 20 db, followed by the C700/NE-7M tips at a tie for about 15 db isolation is my guess. The Denon and Nuforce tips are the only ones safe for use driving, and that may still be too much isolation to drive.

20-25dB with expensive aftermarket comply foams and 15dB with stock tips. Meanwhile, ER 6i's are rated for and average reduction up to 36dB. The graph of the ER 6's theoretically lesser isolation which used to be on headroom showed their isolation being beaten by nothing by their big brother the ER 4 (which uses the triflange tips like the ER 6i rather than the biflange like the ER 6) and showed a start at around -20dB at 20hz and by the time it got to the more common 500-4000hz range it had dropped to -40 or more dB in sound reduction. It fell off the either -50 or -60dB (don't remember which) bottom of the chart for many parts of the spectrum.

So, if isolation is his priority, this thread is over and he should buy the ER 6i. That is that. But since he didn't really explain what his weights were for each factor in his decision, we must assume this is not the case.

In high frequencies, I and probably most others seriously doubt a dynamic driver can compete with the Etymotic's armature. There are no dynamic driver IEMs known specifically for having excellent highs.

Mids, let's call it a tie for the sake of not stirring up more argument. If someone wants to dispute this or give their thoughts, please do, but I don't want to give any because it will only start more things over which arguments will continue.

As for bass, I have already said, personally I find it is adequate and not lacking at all. You probably aren't listening to it under the same conditions as I am with small biflange tips to allow a deep solidsealed insertion to get as much bass as intended. I'm not going to spew "you aren't getting a good seal" BS because that's exactly what it is, BS. Only the most uninformed users don't properly seal up their IEMs on insertion, and the extremely vast majority of head-fiers are not in that group. However, insertion depth DOES have an effect on what is heard. The specs also show the ER 6i's bass response to be flat and not lacking. With Etymotic's new Mushroom ear tips, I get an easily noticeable bit more bass.

I am not trying to claim the ER 6i's are "better than they actually are" and I am not trying to mislead other readers. I am trying to prevent other readers from being mislead by people by telling them that the ER 6i have no bass and cannot be enjoyed, because in comparison to various other phones, I still have yet to stop enjoying mine, and a lot of what I listen to isn't even the type of lots-of-highs-and-not-that-much-bass music that Etymotic phones are said to be so good at.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

"20-25dB with expensive aftermarket comply foams and 15dB with stock tips. Meanwhile, ER 6i's are rated for and average reduction up to 36dB. The graph of the ER 6's theoretically lesser isolation which used to be on headroom showed their isolation being beaten by nothing by their big brother the ER 4 (which uses the triflange tips like the ER 6i rather than the biflange like the ER 6) and showed a start at around -20dB at 20hz and by the time it got to the more common 500-4000hz range it had dropped to -40 or more dB in sound reduction. It fell off the either -50 or -60dB (don't remember which) bottom of the chart for many parts of the spectrum. "

I didn't measure it, I was just thinking that they isolate enough to shoot my pistol at the firing range with the Complys, but not with the stock ones. Isolation may be more. I don't know. Since I sold the ER6i in january to mapstec I can't compare the NE-7M to them.

 

[TacticalPenguin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif "20-25dB with expensive aftermarket comply foams and 15dB with stock tips. Meanwhile, ER 6i's are rated for and average reduction up to 36dB. The graph of the ER 6's theoretically lesser isolation which used to be on headroom showed their isolation being beaten by nothing by their big brother the ER 4 (which uses the triflange tips like the ER 6i rather than the biflange like the ER 6) and showed a start at around -20dB at 20hz and by the time it got to the more common 500-4000hz range it had dropped to -40 or more dB in sound reduction. It fell off the either -50 or -60dB (don't remember which) bottom of the chart for many parts of the spectrum. " I didn't measure it, I was just thinking that they isolate enough to shoot my pistol at the firing range with the Complys, but not with the stock ones. Isolation may be more. I don't know. Since I sold the ER6i in january to mapstec I can't compare the NE-7M to them.

Most hearing protection approved for using at a firing range is 20-30dB so that sounds about right.

For reference, I shot rifles in 7.62x39 and 5.56x45 and various other guns (9mm pistol, .22's and some others) with the mushroom tips and the sounds were not even bothersome or annoying as they normally are with earmuffs. The rifles sounded like a pop, but not something that would make me jerk and look from loudness. Very noticeably quieter just from memory. Swapped to 26dB rated earmuffs to check and I honestly do think the 36dB is accurate for the mushroom tips. Note that this was outside so the sound wasn't bouncing back around, but I figure a rifle outside ought to compare to a pistol inside. I think the mushrooms beat normal foam earplugs because they are much tighter and higher-pressure creating a stronger seal. Haven't tried with stock or small biflange tips, but mushrooms are a small notch above the small biflanges from memory. Earmuffs are generally around 25 averaged and foam earplugs around 30-32 averaged.

 

[Jack Karneval]

Albeit what everyone is saying, I would say get the ER6i's. I'm no audiophile, so I may be mistaken with my opinions of what is right for you, but I think the ER6i sounds amazing. It may not have bass quantity, but the bass that it has sounds great. And if you must know, I listen to a lot of electronica, with a main emphasis on Hardstyle, where bass is extraordinarily important to a song sounding good. And IMHO, the ER6i's do all these songs justice!

So my vote goes out to the ER6i (and seriously, you can't go wrong at 76 dollars on Amazon with 3.99 one-day shipping from prime)

 

[skeptic]

TacticalPenguin - thanks for the reasonable response. I recognize I've been a bit, shall we say "fervant" in my criticism of the Er-6i. This time around, I'll try to keep it a little more calm and collected, and I imagine it may even improve my odds of getting my point across without confusion.

After reading your post this afternoon, I decided I would take your advice, sit down with my Er-6i's, do some critical listening, and to try to better express what I find lacking in the bass response of these phones, via examples and absent hyperbole. [For the record, and I do appreciate your giving me the benefit of the doubt on this one, I am using Ety's triple flanges, moistened, inserted to the point of minor discomfort and very well sealed. They would work just fine at the gun range

]

My observations are as follows -- While they are soft spoken in the bottom end, you are correct in stating that the Er-6i's do get down there on the curve. They aren't terrible when we are talking about a completely exposed bass line. The percussive hit at the start of a bass note certainly comes through just fine. It's the sustained notes, ranging from subtle deep bass vocals to the tone of bass drums (toms?) where the Er-6i's falter, at least to my ears.

This issue is particularly evident to me when the bass line is layered in the midst of a number of other "voices" (instrumental or human). Maybe its just something about a budget armature driver's capacity to produce a number of simultaneous tones, including deep bass, but the bass simply gets lost for me with this IEM when we are dealing with numerous voices.

Here are some examples:

Chanticleer's Anniversary Album is a superb recording of one of the best choirs in the world. But if you compare the Er-6i to just about any other decent phone you have, you will observe what can best be described as a different balance between the sections of the choir. [This is why I so vociferously objected to the claim that the Er-6i's are an "honest" phone.] In the track "Down by the Sally Gardens," for example, the bass section gets muddied up in each of the tender resolves at the end of the phrases. At one point, in place of resonant bass voices, I even heard a tiny bit of gravelly distortion at the bottom end. The sustained notes are the real issue for me...

In popular jazz or however you would define the genre encompassing contemporary artists like Norah Jones and Ingrid Michaelson, the initial plucking of the bass is just fine, but the resonant sustained vibration of acoustic bass strings (really the tone) and the eventual decay are lacking. [As an aside - My Ne-7m's showed up this evening, and even fresh out of the box, absent burn in, they put the Er-6i's to shame in this respect on these albums. HA is totally on point in recommending these as an excellent value, and I can't wait to really hear them after 20-40 hours.]

Switching to rock - for example Cloud Cult's song "May Your Hearts Stay Strong" - from 4 seconds in and throughout much of the song, there is a wonderfully recorded, repeated drum beat on the toms, where tone and changing pitch of the drums is particularly audible. On the 6i's, you can hear the percussive hit at the start of each drum beat, but the tone of the drums is completely recessed, and the resonance that gives such strength to the beat is strangely absent.

Maybe these examples shed some light on why my 6i's have largely been collecting dust for the past year or so? The detail and isolation, the trebles and mids really are excellent. The tone of violins and violas is incredibly legit for a pair of $70 IEM's - but the bass just isn't for me.

I'll be sure to post back and elaborate on the ne-7m's once they've ripened a bit

 

[scytheavatar]

Yeah, one thing about the Etys is that while they have a pitiful amount of bass the bass's quality is top notch, tight and really punchy. So while at times you have to strain your ears to hear the bass someone with a sense of appreciation for light and tight bass will love the ety's bass.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scytheavatar /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah, one thing about the Etys is that while they have a pitiful amount of bass the bass's quality is top notch, tight and really punchy. So while at times you have to strain your ears to hear the bass someone with a sense of appreciation for light and tight bass will love the ety's bass.

Well, even I have said that if used with an amp with bass boost of 6-10dB that the ER6i are a nice phone. But, the minority of amps have bass boost, and the iPod EQ simply distorts everything when use use it to boost bass. Without bass boost they are disappointing to me. All that great detail and air and ambience, with no kick.

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif IEM produce bass by moving a small amount of air within the ear canal. Many of them produce deep bass just fine. I can easy hear 16Hz notes with my NE-7M but not on my more expensive Westone 3 with 3-drivers.

Not to add to this after it looks like it has died out, but...

I just listened to bass test tones with my NE-7 and could sense (not sure if I am feeling or actually hearing) tones at 12Hz up. There was a noticeable increase in perceived amplitude at 16Hz, and the perception for me changed at 21Hz.

My teeth hurt a little after listening to the tones several times.

 

[MattDotZeb]

Well that certainly was an interesting argument to read.
I don't think I'd ever want to strain to hear my bass, so it looks like I'm going to be purchasing the NE-7Ms.

Now to just chill and wait for Skeptic to receive and burn his in.