[griff500]

You have a fundamental misunderstanding about how Ethernet and packetized data functions. And yes, it is science/engineering - who do you think developed the standards and associated technology. How do you think so many diverse devices communicate reliably over Ethernet? Magic?

Again, with error correction and galvanization (eliminates interference and noise), what else could impact an Ethernet connection? You keep saying there is something - what is it?

Explain how audio data is different than financial data transmitted via Ethernet - provide some details as to how any device in the chain identifies the difference between packets containing audio data and any other type of data. Hint - there isn't any difference.

All that said, you seem to believe the 802 standard is incomplete/incorrect. Tell you what: you write it up and I will get you a slot in front of the right 802 subcommittee to present your findings. If it's the 802 subcommittee I'm a member of, I'll be there for the presentation as well.

Bottom line - my position is based on the 802 standards and trillions of packets successfully delivered, error checked, error corrected, and processed daily. Your position is based on parroting what a bunch of "high end" cable vendors use as marketing materials, including some on this very thread. Congratulations on perfectly encapsulating 2021, where science and knowledge is discounted and the subjective opinions of those with a profit motive take precedence.

Why keep pursuing this? Surely you must even be boring yourself by now...

Again, it's not about data and reliable communication between devices. The standards that you keep banging on about exist solely to ensure correct delivery of data. I do not have a misunderstanding about this.

I am not "parroting" anyone - I am reporting the same subjective findings that lots of other people have also found.

You might not have noticed, but the topic is to "share your listening experience". How about doing that?

 

[bfreedma]

ethernet cables effect on the audio, really is nothing to do with packets or changing the data in anyway. You are right ethernet is a robust way for delivering data, but it wasnt designed with audio in mind. The biggest issue effecting audio performance is the transmission of electronic (main RF) noise, picked up from around your network and transmitted via the ethernet cable acting if you will, like an antenna. This noise then piggy backs the data and enters the streamer which is highly sensitive to the effects noise brings, ie vibration and jitter which in turn causes an adverse effect when it comes to the DA conversion later in the chain. For the majority of applications ethernet works seamlessly, but in audio the physical connection and the noise which can be transmitted does effect the way your streamer and DAC perform and consequently the sound we hear.

I keep posting that Ethernet is galvanically isolated and you keep ignoring it - do you know what "galvanically isolated" means? Every Ethernet cable following the 802 standard (which should be all cables) has galvanic isolation built into the connectors. It isn't external electrical noise riding on the connection because it can't be. Try again. "Vibration"? Did you seriously just post that vibration impacts Ethernet? Come on...

Frankly, someone identifying as member of the trade titled "Network Acoustics" should at least understand the basics. You clearly do not. Same offer for you though - if you feel the 802 standards are incorrect/incomplete, even for audio, write it up and I'll get you in front of the appropriate 802 subcommittee. I've offered this dozens of times to cable vendors and cable proponents, yet no one ever actually does the write up. I wonder why...

I don't expect you too either. Can't let facts get in the way of sales, can we.

 

[teknorob23]

I keep posting that Ethernet is galvanically isolated and you keep ignoring it - do you know what "galvanically isolated" means? Every Ethernet cable following the 802 standard (which should be all cables) has galvanic isolation built into the connectors. It isn't external electrical noise riding on the connection because it can't be. Try again. "Vibration"? Did you seriously just post that vibration impacts Ethernet? Come on...

Frankly, someone identifying as member of the trade titled "Network Acoustics" should at least understand the basics. You clearly do not. Same offer for you though - if you feel the 802 standards are incorrect/incomplete, even for audio, write it up and I'll get you in front of the appropriate 802 subcommittee. I've offered this dozens of times to cable vendors and cable proponents, yet no one ever actually does the write up. I wonder why...

I don't expect you too either. Can't let facts get in the way of sales, can we.

Galvanic isolation is of limited effectiveness when it comes to rfi.

 

[bfreedma]

Why keep pursuing this? Surely you must even be boring yourself by now...

Again, it's not about data and reliable communication between devices. The standards that you keep banging on about exist solely to ensure correct delivery of data. I do not have a misunderstanding about this.

I am not "parroting" anyone - I am reporting the same subjective findings that lots of other people have also found.

You might not have noticed, but the topic is to "share your listening experience". How about doing that?

I keep pursuing this because I'm tired of seeing vendors take advantage of consumers who lack the knowledge to properly identify the marketing spin.

In the long run, this will be solved by new truth in marketing regulation that are about two years away from being adopted. I'm looking forward to that day, when vendors need to actually prove their performance claims, not merely make them.

The "share your experience" is just a red herring for two reasons.
1 - I've done enough analysis to vet the 802 standards
2 - Suggesting someone needs personal experience to vet science is absurd. Do I need to jump off the Empire State Building to prove the law of gravity functions on that particular building or can I accept that gravitational science is well established? The "try it yourself" mantra is simply a crutch for consumers who need to defend their purchase through group think rather than the engineering realities.

 

[bfreedma]

Galvanic isolation is of limited effectiveness when it comes to rfi.

Limited how? Be specific. What RFI isn't remediated by the galvanically isolated connector? As the cable's external material is nonconductive and the wired connection is galvanically isolated, how is that RFI entering the circuit?

I've designed and worked in data centers that have hundreds of times the RFI likely to be found in any house. Yet the OOB galvanic isolation works perfectly in these industrial sites but not for home audio?

Look, I know you want to sell product, but your knowledge of Ethernet and associated data transmission are woefully inadequate. You keep tossing out words with zero supporting evidence.

 

[griff500]

I keep posting that Ethernet is galvanically isolated and you keep ignoring it - do you know what "galvanically isolated" means? Every Ethernet cable following the 802 standard (which should be all cables) has galvanic isolation built into the connectors. It isn't external electrical noise riding on the connection because it can't be. Try again. "Vibration"? Did you seriously just post that vibration impacts Ethernet? Come on...

Frankly, someone identifying as member of the trade titled "Network Acoustics" should at least understand the basics. You clearly do not. Same offer for you though - if you feel the 802 standards are incorrect/incomplete, even for audio, write it up and I'll get you in front of the appropriate 802 subcommittee. I've offered this dozens of times to cable vendors and cable proponents, yet no one ever actually does the write up. I wonder why...

I don't expect you too either. Can't let facts get in the way of sales, can we.

People who throw around the word 'facts'...

Galvanic isolation is designed to do a specific job. It doesn't mean that things cannot be improved or that it's 100% effective at dealing with all interference that might come it's way. Even a diver's watch is only waterproof (or even water resistant) to a certain depth.

I suspect the appropriate subcommittee would tell you that the standards are not designed for audio and that the relevant standards are designed to ensure the integrity of data transfer. They might also ask why you are wasting their time with this.

Insulting people with an opposing point of view is always a persuasive approach...

How about accepting that people have different points of view based on their experience and leaving it there instead of banging on and on and on.

Do I need to jump off the Empire State Building to prove the law of gravity functions on that particular building or can I accept that gravitational science is well established? The "try it yourself" mantra is simply a crutch for consumers who need to defend their purchase through group think rather than the engineering realities.

Using that analogy is lazy and quite ridiculous. I don't believe anyone has ever jumped off the Empire State Building, got up and said "that didn't hurt at all". Discussing the potential for an ethernet cable to have an effect on sound quality in the system it is attached to is not equivalent to doubting gravity...

Maybe get a grip and find something more positive to do? Nobody needs to be saved by you but thanks anyway.

 

[griff500]

I've designed and worked in data centers that have hundreds of times the RFI likely to be found in any house.

Yes, but how did the servers sound? Oh, wait...

Again, you might not have noticed, but the topic is to "share your listening experience". How about doing that?

 

[bfreedma]

People who throw around the word 'facts'...

Galvanic isolation is designed to do a specific job. It doesn't mean that things cannot be improved or that it's 100% effective at dealing with all interference that might come it's way. Even a diver's watch is only waterproof (or even water resistant) to a certain depth.

I suspect the appropriate subcommittee would tell you that the standards are not designed for audio and that the relevant standards are designed to ensure the integrity of data transfer. They might also ask why you are wasting their time with this.

Insulting people with an opposing point of view is always a persuasive approach...

How about accepting that people have different points of view based on their experience and leaving it there instead of banging on and on and on.

Using that analogy is lazy and quite ridiculous. I don't believe anyone has ever jumped off the Empire State Building, got up and said "that didn't hurt at all". Discussing the potential for an ethernet cable to have an effect on sound quality in the system it is attached to is not equivalent to doubting gravity...

Maybe get a grip and find something more positive to do? Nobody needs to be saved by you but thanks anyway.

Ethernet and the 802 standards were written to ensure accurate data communications. Again, packetized data isn't audio data or non audio data - it's just data.

You suspect wrong about asking the appropriate subcommittee would lead to learning that "Ethernet wasn't designed for audio". That question has been raised by "cable believers" multiple times and has been rejected due to lack of evidence on each occasion by the involved subcoms. As a member of one of the 802 committees, I have access to this history and can state with certainty that your assumptions are incorrect.

No matter how much it forces you to confront what you've invested in cables, 802 operation is not subjective. If you have a differing point of view, it is entirely incumbent on you to prove it.

I find it both ironic and disappointing that someone sticking to the factual operational model of 802 is told to "get a grip and find something positive to do" while those that rely on vendor claims and subjective opinions somehow feel these trump vetted science.

 

[bfreedma]

Yes, but how did the servers sound? Oh, wait...

Again, you might not have noticed, but the topic is to "share your listening experience". How about doing that?

On my side of this debate:
My listening experience is that Ethernet cables don't impact sound
The 802 standard ensures Ethernet cables don't impact sound
No peer reviewed evidence or controlled testing exists showing Ethernet cables impact sound.

On your side of the debate:
You have sighted subjective observations with zero controls and no ability to address expectation bias or placebo
You have vendors with a profit motive

 

[griff500]

After some time I replaced the upgraded ethernet cable with the original one and the sound quality was worse - immediately and easily noticeable. I really do not need to confront anything about my purchasing decisions and it is not incumbent on me to prove anything to you. Instead of that, I'll enjoy my music, which sounds a lot better with this cable.

Expectation bias is a two-way street. My firm expectation was that an ethernet cable would make no difference to a digital signal, but I thought I would give it a go anyway, with the ability to return the cable. I was wrong. Of course, you will continue to believe that everyone who says they hear a difference is wrong and it won't raise any curiosity whatsoever in your enquiring scientific mind...

My listening experience is that Ethernet cables don't impact sound

Are you in danger of getting on topic? Perhaps you could share what cables you tried and what the components are in your system?

 

[bfreedma]

After some time I replaced the upgraded ethernet cable with the original one and the sound quality was worse - immediately and easily noticeable. I really do not need to confront anything about my purchasing decisions and it is not incumbent on me to prove anything to you. Instead of that, I'll enjoy my music, which sounds a lot better with this cable.

Expectation bias is a two-way street. My firm expectation was that an ethernet cable would make no difference to a digital signal, but I thought I would give it a go anyway, with the ability to return the cable. I was wrong. Of course, you will continue to believe that everyone who says they hear a difference is wrong and it won't raise any curiosity whatsoever in your enquiring scientific mind...


Are you in danger of getting on topic? Perhaps you could share what cables you tried and what the components are in your system?

You keep trying to pass the burdon of proof to me as if I'm the one making any claim, let alone one that would require adjustment of known standards.

Since sighted subjective testing is too flawed for any scientific analysis, feel free to provide documentation of how you tested.

 

[griff500]

You keep trying to pass the burdon of proof to me as if I'm the one making any claim, let alone one that would require adjustment of known standards.

Since sighted subjective testing is too flawed for any scientific analysis, feel free to provide documentation of how you tested.

I didn't ask you to prove anything.

I did ask what cables you have tried and what components you use in your system. Perhaps you missed that question?

 

[bfreedma]

Hopefully members reading this who may be considering whether to invest in an expensive Ethernet cable now have some counterbalance to the vendor marketing and purely subjective opinions being presented in this thread as fact.

 

[bfreedma]

I didn't ask you to prove anything.

I did ask what cables you have tried and what components you use in your system. Perhaps you missed that question?

I'm not listing equipment because it's irrelevant - I don't value my sighted subjective opinions any more than I value yours.

What I do value are facts and hard data, something entirely absent from your assessment.

I also value presenting information in this thread that may enable those considering expensive Ethernet cables to properly determine the value (or lack thereof) of that investment. Why does that bother you so much?

 

[griff500]

I'm not listing equipment because it's irrelevant - I don't value my sighted subjective opinions any more than I value yours.

What I do value are facts and hard data, something entirely absent from your assessment.

I also value presenting information in this thread that may enable those considering expensive Ethernet cables to properly determine the value (or lack thereof) of that investment. Why does that bother you so much?

It's a thread about people's listening experience. You're not presenting any information in this regard - just banging on and on that it doesn't make any difference. We get it - you said the same when the topic started and for some reason you feel obliged to keep repeating it. Isn't there a part of the forum for sound science? This isn't it.

You said your listening experience was that ethernet cables make no difference. It's entirely pertinent to ask what cables you used and with what equipment.

I'm not sure why you are so shy about saying what's in your system and what cables you have allegedly tried. I can guess though.